Training only/predominantly in a Cessna 152

[SuperchargedRS]

Well, after flying most cessnas out there I can say, if you can fly a 172 or 152 it's not a huge leap to go to a 182, 206, 208, etc. it's not that hard to learn how to use a prop or manage a turbine once you've been flying for a little while.

Where things get a little different is when you start talking 180/185/PA18 tailwheel planes, as someone who first learned in a tailwheel, instructed folks exclusively in tailwheel, owns a tailwheel and flys a good amount of tailwheel, I wouldn't trust someone who took a weekend course as a pilot for my plane, I wouldn't trust someone with less then say 100hrs tailwheel, ESPECAILLY if they started and built most of their prior time in a trike.

[photofly]

Not many people flying taildraggers for commercial ops. Some, but not many.

[PilotDAR]

jump into and fly if they have flown one before

Well, maybe, but I'm not so easily convinced.... A really proficient 152 pilot, who is very aware of the aircraft, can probably manage a lightly loaded 182 with only brief transition training, if the discipline is good, and the conditions are right. But, that 152 pilot dropped into a loaded 206 will probably be in for a surprise.

In my opinion, the common standard of instruction these days is not producing pilots who can feel their way through checking themselves out in larger Cessnas trouble free. I've seen enough 172's, let alone 182's and 206's, with damaged nosewheels to make me believe that new pilots are not getting the notion that aircraft must be flown, rather than driven. Insurers seem to know this too.

Unfortunately, the 152 is so tough that nosewheel abuse usually goes by un-noticed. Ham fisted handling somehow becomes tolerated - then the norm. 172's less so - they get bent. One of my client's C 206's has had major nosewheel damage twice in 18 months, in the hands of near thousand hour commercial pilots - who really should have known better.

PPL training in a 152 or 172 may not prepare the new pilot with the skills to assume capability in the bigger Cessnas, but either is adequate to prepare the new pilot for the other of the two. The systems of the bigger Cessnas require knowledge too, though one has to hope that a thorough understanding of the flight manual for the type should get the new pilot through - right?

As for the 180 & 185, great planes, but a C 152 trained pilot of today will probably exit runway left in the first third of the takeoff, without strict training. If they make it around to a landing they will have a major tour of the pitch and yaw axis of the plane during the landing rollout.

So, I guess I've talked myself around to recommending that PPL training be in a PA-18 or Citabria... I wish I had, it took lots of catching up after the fact!

[photofly]

Speaking as someone who flies both a 182 and a 152 - a lot - I think you're entirely overstating the case. The only significant difference is the amount of pitch force. If you learned to use the trim wheel correctly there should be no issue.

[digits_]

Even the modest 150 can make itself useful doing something other than training!

What exactly is that red thing ?

[PilotDAR]

I think you're entirely overstating the case.

And there's the value of more than one opinion!

My STOL kitted 150 glides at 65 MPH happily, can be flared to a feather touchdown from a power off approach at that speed with ease, and, has hardly any notiecable torque affect during takeoff. The 182 I fly, at 3350 pounds gross weight, and 300 HP, demands good use of the pedals during takeoff, and glides at 90 MPH, with a 12 degree approach. That demands skill for a power off landing, which a C 152 pilot will simply never be able to practice, nor figure out. Even a 182 RG will settle through a flare more than a standard 182.

A Cessna Cardinal RG has a different airfoil and tail, which will allow you to settle alarmingly in the flare if your technique is poor. The C 206 and 210s are similar. They can be crunched if the pilot is not ready for how they flare, and a 152 pilot will never be able to have practiced that. I have trained pilots in these types, and had to "help" to prevent damage. If I had to "help" to prevent damage, that pilot was not ready to solo it yet.

A 180 or 185 will just be pointed in the other direction on a runway, either in pitch or yaw, in the hands of an un type trained C 152 pilot.

Interestingly, the Caravan is probably one of the more tolerant, I think because Cessna designed it to be so, but you're going to have to learn the engine, or you'll melt it! I do think that a really good C 172 pilot might fly the Caravan decently with minimal additional training (I did!) as long as they understand how to operate the engine.

[photofly]

Right, but we were comparing a stock 152 with a stock 182; not a STOL-modded 150 with a 300HP souped-up 182 (normally 230hp). Clearly the further you trick out your aircraft the more opportunity there is for unusual handling in corner cases.

[PilotDAR]

Ah, but a tricked up 182, with 300 HP, wing extensions and a STOL kit, among other mods, is still closer to a 152 (in terms of weight and wing loading) than a stock 206, which also has 300HP, with not as much wing area as the tricked out 182, and can be flown at 3600 pounds....

Somewhere along the scale, the differences begin to add up to "different". I suggest that in the Cessna product range, the [stock] 152 and 206 are not on the same side of the "different" line.... A stock 182 is on the line, in my opinion....

[fish4life]

Ok seriously were talking about high wing freaking Cessna's I grew up being able to fly the damn things before I had a license no matter what the weight 185's and all... It's an airplane not a space shuttle if you can't fly a Cessna of any type on your first go because of "inertia" God help you get into a large airplane. Stick back it goes up reduce throttle and your lose speed... Am I the only one that gets into a plane and just enjoys it?

[photofly]

I'm afraid it's one of those irregular situations - I'd be fine in any high wing Cessna, you should be careful, and he definitely needs a checkout to be safe.

[PilotDAR]

I'd be fine in any high wing Cessna, you should be careful, and he definitely needs a checkout to be safe.

I have noticed this exactly while mentoring other pilots. To say nothing of other less common types, some pilots seemed challenged to fly a 172 without damaging it, while others demonstrate hands of gold in whatever they fly.

The original question was "should I spend the extra to get "heavy" experience in a 172, over a 152?". In my opinion probably not. However, from my point of view, that does not extend onward to say that a fresh 152/172 trained PPL can thereafter check themselves out on any Cessna because they are all very similar. The other Cessnas are not that similar!

If they were so similar, flying clubs would not require checkouts for 30+ days of not flying to guard against skills perishing, and insurance companies would insure all of those various Cessnas as only one class of plane.

If PPL training went well beyond CPL standards, and demanded near perfection in all flying skills, taking hundreds of hours in the 152, and many more of systems training on the ground for differences from the 152, then probably we'd be turning out pilots who could safely check themselves out in most anything. Instead, it is widely agreed that a fresh PPL is a license to learn. So some of that learning apparently needs to be further type training for nearly all low time PPLs.

[SuperchargedRS]

Ok seriously were talking about high wing freaking Cessna's I grew up being able to fly the damn things before I had a license no matter what the weight 185's and all... It's an airplane not a space shuttle if you can't fly a Cessna of any type on your first go because of "inertia" God help you get into a large airplane. Stick back it goes up reduce throttle and your lose speed... Am I the only one that gets into a plane and just enjoys it?

So you're saying that someone who has only flown a 152 or 172 should be able to just jump right into a 185 and just go?

[Rookie50]

Ok seriously were talking about high wing freaking Cessna's I grew up being able to fly the damn things before I had a license no matter what the weight 185's and all... It's an airplane not a space shuttle if you can't fly a Cessna of any type on your first go because of "inertia" God help you get into a large airplane. Stick back it goes up reduce throttle and your lose speed... Am I the only one that gets into a plane and just enjoys it?

So you're saying that someone who has only flown a 152 or 172 should be able to just jump right into a 185 and just go?

Personally I doubt it.

Even jumping from a 152 right into a loaded 206 as a self checkout would lead to a nasty surprise stage left off runway, and then likely quite a shock on landing when they try to glide it like a 152. Good luck with that, and with finding anyone's airplane to do it with.

People can't even land a 172 without beating it to death, it seems, which takes 3 fingers in the flare. 206's take a bit more!

Even moving to my 182 I had to learn rudder trim wasn't there as a decorative ornament.

Personally I don't get the Top Gun mentality that dominates on these threads about those soloing in 3 hours, licenced in 30, and jumping straight into captain's chair on a HO' Without any checkouts.

Who cares? You're better than I am. I hope to be a safe pilot by making conservative choices. If I'm the slowest of the pack and need checkouts on everything, my pride ain't going to stand in the way.

[PilotDAR]

and jumping straight into captain's chair on a HO' Without any checkouts.

To drift the thread just a little, a long time ago, I thought I had what it took. I checked myself out in a Piper Tomahawk. I did not wreck it, but I certainly could not be proud of my first few landings and takeoffs. I should have sought a checkout. Back in the day, insurance was a little different, and did not suggest the need for a checkout if you had enough hours [to scare yourself].

So after building enough experience flying the Tomahawk, I could fly it with some pride. A fellow came along and bought it. I offered a checkout to him. Nope, he did not need one. Hmmm, I asked if he'd flown them before... No, but he had Bonanza time. I suggested that he take me for one circuit in it for old times sake, and he did. Once airborne, he asked if I'd spend an hour familiarizing him with how it flew. I happily did. Wise fellow. I had taught myself in it after it's being repaired from the previous owner unsuccessfully trying to teach himself to fly it. I had enough luck to make up the difference from my lack of judgement and type skills. Since then, I take a checkout whenever it is offered, and sometimes seek them out...

[fish4life]

Ok seriously were talking about high wing freaking Cessna's I grew up being able to fly the damn things before I had a license no matter what the weight 185's and all... It's an airplane not a space shuttle if you can't fly a Cessna of any type on your first go because of "inertia" God help you get into a large airplane. Stick back it goes up reduce throttle and your lose speed... Am I the only one that gets into a plane and just enjoys it?

So you're saying that someone who has only flown a 152 or 172 should be able to just jump right into a 185 and just go?

If they learnt on a tail dragger conversion 150 then a couple circuits showing how to work the constant speed and they should be fine to fly it.

To the OP ago with the 152, chances are your first job will be in a twin turbine anyway so 152/172 will be moot point.

[esp803]

Quite the debate over the single Cessna's.

I stand by my original statement, go for the cheaper option.

As for how they all fly, I've done a 150,152,172,180,182,185,205,206,207,208, and from what I can tell, they all handle pretty much the same. In Fact I know of at least one company that throws 200hr pilots left seat into a Caravan for their first commercial flying gig. I think it's brilliant. Put the new guy in a More robust, more stable, better performing aircraft. Provided you're not taking it into the 1200-1500 ft strips, a new pilot flying a Caravan is infinitely safer than a new pilot flying a 207. I don't think anyone should jump in an airplane that they've never flown and take customers on their trips... however it shouldn't take you more than a couple circuits to convert from one to the other (a few hours for the tailwheel or Caravan).

E

[Rookie50]

I think the answer is, it depends on many factors.

When I moved from the 172 RG to my 182 RG, not only was it my first real type transition -- though I have a touch of 206 and 205 time -- I was extremely rusty having not flown much in the recent past. Accident waiting to happen. So a good checkout made sense, was required by insurance. I didn't mind, and it blended into some good recurrency training time.

Of course, for those with multiples of my total time and different types, may not matter. But I'm low time.


Now if someone wanted me to fly a 206 tommorrow, I'm probably fine with a self checkout and careful review of the POH, To me it's just not as big a jump, though I'd still take the checkout.

[jump154]

Fly the 152. It's cheaper, more fun and spins far better than the 172. I did all my PPL on a 152, then transitioned to a 172 when I had a licence and wanted to take people up with me. Only reason to train in a 172 is if you are too heavy for you and your instructor to put meaningful fuel in. I was limited to 3/4 tanks 2 up, which was OK for most stuff. Only a couple of times had to fly a couple to circuits to burn off fuel before my instructor could get in!

Looking at one school round here, $35/hr cost differential - every 4th hour is free!

[LousyFisherman]

^ +1

And it's not more fun, it's way more fun! The 172 flies like a bus in comparison.
And having flown one, you could jump into the other. I would recommend a checkout, but ....
A 172XP needs a checkout though unless you have CS prop experience.
The 180/182/185 are quite a bit more of an airplane. CS prop, lots more power.

IMHO
LF

[jump154]

Also, don't get caught paying more to learn something, or learn in something you "MAY" be flying in. Learn in the most effective manner, both practically and cost, in the appropriate machine for what you are learning at that time and then train in what you will be flying once you actually know what you will be flying.

[PilotDAR]

I've done a 150,152,172,180,182,185,205,206,207,208, and from what I can tell, they all handle pretty much the same.

That's because they are all designed to meet the same certification standard (albeit of differing vintage). Looking back at all those “simpler” types from being capable in a 206 and 208 is fine, but it’s a much different viewpoint than looking forward from just training in a 152 or 172. I remember going “back” to a 150 after a few years flying Aztecs, 310s and Cheyenne – what a difference that was! I was trying to fly it by “numbers” (and the plane was laughing at me!).

All these types are certified to the same standards of handling and minimum performance, and fly similarly to each other, but not the same. In the front of every Cessna flight manual (which I know new pilots read diligently) it says that the information in the flight manual is not a substitute for training – that can be taken to mean competent type training.

We, in the latter half of the first century of aviation, owe a lot to the pilots and designers of the first half of that century, for their efforts to define standards for civil aircraft to follow. Now, it is plausible for a pilot to read the flight manual, and check themselves out in a modern certified GA aircraft of a class familiar to them, I’ve certainly done it. But doing so works a lot better if that pilot is building upon considerable existing skill to carefully grow more. Such is not the case for a student pilot choosing between a 152 and a 172 for initial training.

Having also checked myself out in less common types, whose design was not based upon compliance with "Part 23", I can point out that their control and handling can be different, and require really good skill and discipline to safely fly - particularly if not being mentored. Two examples which come to mind for me are the Tiger Moth and SM1019, both aircraft with systems or handling characteristics outside the norm. Certainly manageable, but with either type training, or lots of skill.

Having said that, I sort of do not agree with

Also, don't get caught paying more to learn something, or learn in something you "MAY" be flying in. Learn in the most effective manner, both practically and cost, in the appropriate machine for what you are learning at that time and then train in what you will be flying once you actually know what you will be flying.

I agree to learn in the most effective manner, practical and cost the 152 will be fine, but seek out opportunities to learn and understand different types much later in your training or post PPL. Any potential employer will be more impressed with a breadth of experience – including exposure to different types, than someone with 350 hours in the circuit in a 152. My suggestions for “findable” types to become familiar with post PPL include: Cub/Champ/Citabria, any of the Cherokee series, Tomahawk, any of the Cessna 177 series, a Diamond or Cirrus, and a retractable (Arrow, 172/177/182RG). Then twins if you want to progress from there...

I know that with awesome training, fighter pilots went to war in Spitfires with 200 hours total time, but these days, if a 200 hour pilot is "on the job" in a Caravan, I'd be very surprised, and probably stunned by the insurance premium covering it!

[trey kule]

The objective of the PPL/cpl is to instill a solid base of flight skills with some experience.

The 150/152 will do that just fine.

A 172 will better prepare you...hogwash.

No one can argue that flying different types is valuable

I would take anyone telling you that all Cessna singles fly the same with a grain of salt. My experience over the last 50 years is that most of those that make such claims are just not good enough pilots to recognize the differences.

Learn the basic flying skills. Learn them well. Study hard to understand all the things that you will need to know to get you through your carreer. Everybit as important. Save yourself some money, and enjoy the process.

Do that, and transitions will be a piece of cake.

[lhalliday]

I did most of my PPL training in Cherokees, but ended up with about 10 hours of 152 time by the time I was done. Fun little plane, and a good training plane. Easy to fly, hard to fly well. Time in a 152 is time well spent.

When I did a checkride in a 172 all but a couple of maneuvers were to flight test standard. The big thing that took getting used to was the much better glide: my first approach was ridiculously high. Gave me my first experience with slips in a 172.

I found a 182 a handful. Significantly bigger, faster, heavier. My first 182 takeoff was at 8500 feet density altitude. This didn't help...

...laura

[5x5]

I agree basically with Trey Cool.

One of the big issues with the 152 is that it is restricted by capacity. These days with many bigger instructors and bigger students, the weight limit is reached quite easily so fuel becomes an issue. It can be difficult to take full fuel, hence range becomes a limiting factor. Assuming it isn't, the 152 is a much more fun aircraft to fly in my opinion. It is more responsive than the 172 and just "feels" nicer. (I realize that's a highly technical description.) Save your money and fly the 152 - you won't regret it.

As for the "jump right into any high-wing Cessna and go" comments; it's possible that experienced posters are forgetting exactly what it was like way back when they were freshly minted PPL and CPL pilots. There is so much left to learn and internalize through experience (arriving at an unfamiliar airport, navigating unfamiliar airspace, potentially more complicated flight planning, etc) that adding in an unfamiliar faster/heavier/more complex aircraft can easily overload an inexperienced pilot. In the wrong combination of circumstances you can really be asking for trouble.

[lhalliday]

One of the big issues with the 152 is that it is restricted by capacity. These days with many bigger instructors and bigger students, the weight limit is reached quite easily so fuel becomes an issue. It can be difficult to take full fuel, hence range becomes a limiting factor...

This is very much an issue for all dual flights. It showed up in other ways, like the perception of lousy climb performance because we were always taking off at maximum gross weight. When one local airport stopped selling 100LL we couldn't do dual flights there with an acceptable (or legal) fuel reserve.

I've looked covetously at planes like Piper Cubs, but they just don't have enough payload to be useful. And I'm not that heavy, either.

...laura