Oh my god people. I have seen people have a nap after 10 days off and not long after reaching flight level. There are just days a nap is needed. There are reasons why there are 2 crew. Face it most planes today could be flown single pilot with no issue.
All i can say is suck it up butter cup.
WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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godsrcrazy
- Rank 8
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:12 pm
Re: WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
And I'm not including the layovers in duty hours, I'm saying that I show up for work at 0600, check wx, look over flt plan, pre flight checks etc, fly 3 or 4 legs for credit of 5 or 6 hours, end duty day 1700. That's an 11 hour day, I was at work the whole time but paid for half of it, do that 16 times a month, that would be 176 duty hours, maybe I should be asking for 16 hours of overtime. Like I said this is more common than not, every month I look at my pairings and the credit is half of my duty day.bobcaygeon wrote;
BTW federal labour law says 160 hrs in 28 days not 1 month. Neither CARs nor labour code consider a 24 layover a work day. Not saying you shouldn't get paid just what rules actually
Also, I'm a commuter and I can assure you I don't do what you've said, I always go to my base in time for supper the day before my pairing, relax and get a good night sleep before I report, the odd time when I get an afternoon check in, if I can't fit my commuting flight into a 12 hour day including my scheduled flying, I still go to my base the night before. I use 12 hours for the possibility of delays and I can say that most commuters I know do the same thing as me, anything else is irresponsible.
Re: WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
I know Scratch fairly well, he's a good guy.Pratt X 3 wrote:Totally trolling and ready to take cover but I noticed something regarding both recent WestJet news stories.
Story 1
"She has identified the pilot only as "Pilot M."
Story 2
"One former pilot, Rob Scratch Mitchell, said fatigue was one of the reasons he decided to quit WestJet."
Coincidence?
Re: WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
I don't post on here anymore but I think some context is I order. This is about balance.
WJ pilots have no min daily guarantee.
What happens as a result is a 30 hour sit on on east coast (no credit) followed by by 0545 departure in newfoundland and a day that consists of YYT-YHZ-YYZ-YYC-YXE. 8-9 hours in the seat with 40 min turns all day.
13 hours on the ground and a 0530 dept YXE-YEG-YYJ-YYC-YYZ to finish the pairing. Again 40 min turns. No food.
Yes you sat for 30 hours but the 0300 wake up in St John's and the next 2 days are the issue.
If you do say 3 24 plus hour sits in those 16 days you're flying 80 hours in 13 days. Some of those 13 days consist of a YYZ-YOW at 1.2 hours of credit. Again, not fatiguing by any means, but for every day like that you have to make up for it with a 0400 check in in YWG and fly YYZ-VRA-YYZ
The long one days are long yes, but you slept in your own bed and you were able to pack a lunch. Its not about long days, every airline has them, I about balancing them. As you all know going to bed at 1730 is tough enough especially when you factor in time zones, only to wake up at 0200. That's fine, pilots signed up for that but a 13.5 hour day (or 2) when you wake up at that time with min rest the next day takes a toll for many days following the pairing. That's assuming you were able to fall asleep for 8 hours mid afternoon.
Gil
WJ pilots have no min daily guarantee.
What happens as a result is a 30 hour sit on on east coast (no credit) followed by by 0545 departure in newfoundland and a day that consists of YYT-YHZ-YYZ-YYC-YXE. 8-9 hours in the seat with 40 min turns all day.
13 hours on the ground and a 0530 dept YXE-YEG-YYJ-YYC-YYZ to finish the pairing. Again 40 min turns. No food.
Yes you sat for 30 hours but the 0300 wake up in St John's and the next 2 days are the issue.
If you do say 3 24 plus hour sits in those 16 days you're flying 80 hours in 13 days. Some of those 13 days consist of a YYZ-YOW at 1.2 hours of credit. Again, not fatiguing by any means, but for every day like that you have to make up for it with a 0400 check in in YWG and fly YYZ-VRA-YYZ
The long one days are long yes, but you slept in your own bed and you were able to pack a lunch. Its not about long days, every airline has them, I about balancing them. As you all know going to bed at 1730 is tough enough especially when you factor in time zones, only to wake up at 0200. That's fine, pilots signed up for that but a 13.5 hour day (or 2) when you wake up at that time with min rest the next day takes a toll for many days following the pairing. That's assuming you were able to fall asleep for 8 hours mid afternoon.
Gil
Last edited by giligan on Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
That east coast 05:30 departure day you describe is obscene, you guys need to look up CAR 602.02 and start applying it for your own protection. With that kind of day you're violating the CAR's even as ridiculously permissive as they currently are.
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True North
- Rank 6
- Posts: 498
- Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 6:39 pm
Re: WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
http://scratchmitchell.com
Aviator. Actor. Producer. Director.
No wonder the guy is fatigued. When did he actually find time to fly an airliner?
Aviator. Actor. Producer. Director.
No wonder the guy is fatigued. When did he actually find time to fly an airliner?
Re: WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
Fitness of Flight Crew Members
602.02 No operator of an aircraft shall require any person to act as a flight crew member and no person shall act as a flight crew member, if either the person or the operator has any reason to believe, having regard to the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, that the person
(a) is suffering or is likely to suffer from fatigue; or
(b) is otherwise unfit to perform properly the person’s duties as a flight crew member.
602.02 No operator of an aircraft shall require any person to act as a flight crew member and no person shall act as a flight crew member, if either the person or the operator has any reason to believe, having regard to the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, that the person
(a) is suffering or is likely to suffer from fatigue; or
(b) is otherwise unfit to perform properly the person’s duties as a flight crew member.
Re: WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
I wonder if he knew how to use the bidding tool properly...True North wrote:http://scratchmitchell.com
Aviator. Actor. Producer. Director.
No wonder the guy is fatigued. When did he actually find time to fly an airliner?
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flyingvinnie
- Rank 2
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:15 am
More negtive press for WJ.....
An internal report obtained exclusively by CTV News is highlighting exhaustion faced by WestJet pilots.
Monday, March 7, 2016 - CTV News
There are concerns among WestJet pilots that their schedules are leaving them exhausted on the job, according to an internal report obtained by CTV News.
The report, which sums up the results of focus groups commissioned by the airline late last year, highlights frustration among many pilots, some of whom blame the issue on WestJet executives pushing to cut costs and increase efficiency.
“You’re not flying at the level you should be – and that’s the problem. There are no options,” one unnamed participant says in the document.
“Fatigue is not a free fix. They know how to fix it, but it’s all about cost. And they don’t want to spend the money,” says another.
According to the report, nine different pilot groups involving a total of 94 participants were consulted in Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver. It found the same key issues about fatigue and related health and safety concerns among all groups.
“Participants were passionate and overwhelmingly negative with regards to increasingly difficult schedules and related fatigue issues,” it reads.
“Many pilots believe that the increased focus on delivering value to the shareholder has been made at a significant cost to morale, culture, and trust.”
One former pilot, Rob Scratch Mitchell, said fatigue was one of the reasons he decided to quit WestJet.
He also admitted to having fallen asleep in the air.
“There have been a few times I’ve woken up and I’ve seen the other pilot nodding off as well. That’s probably something people aren’t comfortable to hear,” he said.
“We’re stretching our crews to the edge of safety.”
Asked about the report, WestJet told CTV News it’s trying to address employees’ concerns about fatigue, and has made headway since the focus group was conducted.
“A significant amount of work had already been done prior to these focus groups, and several changes have been implemented since, with more to come,” a spokesperson said in an email.
“It is also important to note that all of our pilots are scheduled not only within regulatory requirements laid out by Transport Canada, but in accordance with our pilot agreements and, most importantly, through changes implemented in accordance with our fatigue risk management system.”
There are also concerns among pilots that Canada’s regulations have fallen behind international standards, however.
The U.S. overhauled its rules after a 2009 crash in Buffalo that killed 49 people, and which was blamed on pilot error and fatigue. Many Canadian pilots are urging federal regulators to do the same now, and not wait for a similar tragedy.
“Countries such as Morocco, Bangladesh, India all have flight and duty time regulations that are a lot more strict,” said Capt. Dan Adamus of the Airline Pilots' Association.
Currently, Transport Canada allows pilots to work a 14-hour shift, longer than is allowed in many countries. The agency announced it wanted to udate the rules last year, including a new limit of between nine and 13 hours in the cockpit, but postponed their implementation.
Monday, March 7, 2016 - CTV News
There are concerns among WestJet pilots that their schedules are leaving them exhausted on the job, according to an internal report obtained by CTV News.
The report, which sums up the results of focus groups commissioned by the airline late last year, highlights frustration among many pilots, some of whom blame the issue on WestJet executives pushing to cut costs and increase efficiency.
“You’re not flying at the level you should be – and that’s the problem. There are no options,” one unnamed participant says in the document.
“Fatigue is not a free fix. They know how to fix it, but it’s all about cost. And they don’t want to spend the money,” says another.
According to the report, nine different pilot groups involving a total of 94 participants were consulted in Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver. It found the same key issues about fatigue and related health and safety concerns among all groups.
“Participants were passionate and overwhelmingly negative with regards to increasingly difficult schedules and related fatigue issues,” it reads.
“Many pilots believe that the increased focus on delivering value to the shareholder has been made at a significant cost to morale, culture, and trust.”
One former pilot, Rob Scratch Mitchell, said fatigue was one of the reasons he decided to quit WestJet.
He also admitted to having fallen asleep in the air.
“There have been a few times I’ve woken up and I’ve seen the other pilot nodding off as well. That’s probably something people aren’t comfortable to hear,” he said.
“We’re stretching our crews to the edge of safety.”
Asked about the report, WestJet told CTV News it’s trying to address employees’ concerns about fatigue, and has made headway since the focus group was conducted.
“A significant amount of work had already been done prior to these focus groups, and several changes have been implemented since, with more to come,” a spokesperson said in an email.
“It is also important to note that all of our pilots are scheduled not only within regulatory requirements laid out by Transport Canada, but in accordance with our pilot agreements and, most importantly, through changes implemented in accordance with our fatigue risk management system.”
There are also concerns among pilots that Canada’s regulations have fallen behind international standards, however.
The U.S. overhauled its rules after a 2009 crash in Buffalo that killed 49 people, and which was blamed on pilot error and fatigue. Many Canadian pilots are urging federal regulators to do the same now, and not wait for a similar tragedy.
“Countries such as Morocco, Bangladesh, India all have flight and duty time regulations that are a lot more strict,” said Capt. Dan Adamus of the Airline Pilots' Association.
Currently, Transport Canada allows pilots to work a 14-hour shift, longer than is allowed in many countries. The agency announced it wanted to udate the rules last year, including a new limit of between nine and 13 hours in the cockpit, but postponed their implementation.
Re: More negtive press for WJ.....
The same issues are in play at AC with the EMB and A320 flying in particular. Too many days at work, ugly layovers and long, long days. The Canadian flight and Duty regs are just about the worst in the World. Two pilots allowed to fly from Toronto to Athens are okay for Canada. Nothing like these rules are allowed any place else.
Fatigue comes in many forms from a single pairing to creeping up slowly from too many days worked, long hours and irregular hours.
It is time for WJ, AC, Transat, Sunwing and all pilots to press the Government hard on this issue. At present the Press seems to be paying attention.
Fatigue comes in many forms from a single pairing to creeping up slowly from too many days worked, long hours and irregular hours.
It is time for WJ, AC, Transat, Sunwing and all pilots to press the Government hard on this issue. At present the Press seems to be paying attention.
Re: More negtive press for WJ.....
Scratch appears to be in love with himself. I guess X-Military pilots don't work long hours.
http://scratchmitchell.com
http://scratchmitchell.com
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fruitloops
- Rank 3
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:13 pm
Re: More negtive press for WJ.....
LOL....at least he's got the balls to put it out there in public where it might make some kind of a difference or fuel some action for improvements to working conditions and passenger safety.
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bobcaygeon
- Rank 7
- Posts: 683
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am
Re: More negtive press for WJ.....
I think I saw him at bar once, he was the only one there and he was drinking water.......
Re: More negtive press for WJ.....
fruitloops wrote:LOL....at least he's got the balls to put it out there in public where it might make some kind of a difference or fuel some action for improvements to working conditions and passenger safety.
Or he just likes kicking WestJet when they're down and wanted some air time. His IMDB makes no mention of working for WestJet.
Re: More negtive press for WJ.....
His linkedin profile lists Westjet, which you would have seen if you'd bothered spending 5 seconds typing his name into google.brooks wrote:
Or he just likes kicking WestJet when they're down and wanted some air time. His IMDB makes no mention of working for WestJet.
Re: More negtive press for WJ.....
This thread is lame. Maybe WJ should do a story on him.CpnCrunch wrote:His linkedin profile lists Westjet, which you would have seen if you'd bothered spending 5 seconds typing his name into google.brooks wrote:
Or he just likes kicking WestJet when they're down and wanted some air time. His IMDB makes no mention of working for WestJet.
Last edited by brooks on Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
While duty days and wake up times have been mentioned, no one has talked about the shift work nature of the job.
Doing a red eye flight, having a single day off and showing up for a 6 am check in followed by a red eye flight again. Try that a few times a month and see what happens to your ability to fall asleep. Once your body clock is far enough out that you don't know when to sleep any more, you just stop sleeping.
Fatigue comes in 2 forms... acute and chronic... anyone with a pilots licence should know this and the difference between the 2. Those who name call those reporting fatigue issues, even in jest, are part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Doing a red eye flight, having a single day off and showing up for a 6 am check in followed by a red eye flight again. Try that a few times a month and see what happens to your ability to fall asleep. Once your body clock is far enough out that you don't know when to sleep any more, you just stop sleeping.
Fatigue comes in 2 forms... acute and chronic... anyone with a pilots licence should know this and the difference between the 2. Those who name call those reporting fatigue issues, even in jest, are part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I'm going to knock this up a notch with my spice weasle. Bam!
Re: WESTJET PILOT FATIGUE
CpnCrunch wrote:I see that brooks is a Westjet employee.
Who cares who I work for. Maybe I am not even a pilot. BTW. If you really have a thing for Mr Scratch send him email declaring you admiration.
Last edited by brooks on Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
