AME cracked cylinder while removing exhaust - liability?

[BGH]

I've owned my own Cessna 185 since 1983 & for the first 12 years my dad was my ame.I had a few issues with mechanics after my dad was no longer able to help me do my maintenance due to health issues.Fortunately dad taught me a few things as an owner to help me get all the right information to the wrench before doing the work;

Open & clear communication including expectations before starting the work
Stop work if anything unexpected comes up & advise me of what might break during disassembly & a revised cost estimate
If in disagreement wait until I can be there to have a look.
Sometimes old crap breaks & needs to be replaced,this is not the mechanics fault.
If you complain about the cost of repairs the it's time to sell.


Daryl
Removed insurance comment,not relevant to thread.

[SuperchargedRS]

Yes

Its communication, if you're looking at a nut on a stud which looks like it isn't going out without taking some metal with it, give me a call, text, email, smoke signal, whatever, and I'll probably say something along the lines of "well crap... do the best you can and if it pops I guess I'm ordering a new cylinder". That's the proper way to handle it.

Personally I'm a very easy guy to deal with, I got no issue spending a few bucks on my plane, not too long ago I had one slick mag checkout on me, decided to just dump two new bendix mags with harness on, I got no issue putting money where money is needed.

I'm friendly and understanding of my mechanic and am turning wrenches beside him for 90% of the work, that's said I don't get things sprung on me, nor do I tolerate surprises on a bill, you come up against something which looks bad, tell me and we'll figure it out, no problem, make decisions on my aircraft for me and we're going to have a major issue.

Not sure what insurance has to do with anything, it's a different product, I've over insured and underinsured my plane before, it's just a product you buy dependent on your need/risk.

Tossing money around (or credit cards for some people) doesn't actually make any thing better or safer, I couldn't own my plane, house and cars outright if I "made it rain" just because some random tradesperson said too.

[anofly]

Lycoming cyls have a history of cracking between the fins , and if you look up between the fins with a flashlight, you will often find some . I somehow am having trouble connecting a broken stud with the cracked cyl? I do understand that a violent attempt at removing the stud may not have done it any good. usually when the studs break they are drilled out close to dimension and then sort or wound out , or an easy out will work then. How many hours on the cyl? since overhaul and since new? If it has 5000 hours since new, and 1000 since overhaul, it is sort of done anyway, if it is only a few hundred hours since new it is a different story.
An honest shop will tell you if they think it is their fault or not,and tell you what they were up to when it was found, or happened. somewhere between the time on the cyl, and the work done there is a way to figure it out, and only the shop knows what happened wrt the crack. If we went out right now and looked at a few hundred lycoming cyls with a flashlight we would find plenty of small cracks that are in service on aircraft.(i think)
The reason shop rates are 90 odd bucks an hour is partially so the shop can recover from the odd mishap, etc. believe me the mechanics dont get all 90 of that!. If a buddy is doing the work for 50 bucks an hour on a saturday for you as a favour , he will have to work a lot of saturdays to recover from this , if its his fault.
if the stud broke they probably had the exhaust off , and then all the work is on the stud and cyl to remove it, the "manifold" would be on the floor by then. The studs can break short or long, if they break in the cyl they are a devil to get out. if they break right under the nut, once the exhaust is off you get a few more chances with heat, stud removers, drills, easy outs, etc. it can be a fun old afternoon.
talk openly and calmly with your shop. let us know what you find out, let us know how many hours etc as above on the cyl. all the best.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I will refrain from commenting about the "unfortunate occurance"...

Realistically, what other Mx providers do you have at your disposal and is this a "hill you are ready to die on"?

Been there, done that before...

All the best,
TPC

Funny you should mention that!

If you are referring to what I think you might be it's "kinda funny" now, but in the heat of the moment there was nothing "funny" about it whatsoever! (Even with your calm and graceful manners I suspect you would have blown your top too!)

All the best,
TPC

[co-joe]

Pretty cool that your AME actually fessed up and might I say rare in business these days. They could just as easily have said "hey when we took the manifold off we found a crack in your jug. Good thing we caught it before you went flying eh?"

I still think you should pay wholesale cost on the parts, and free or discounted labour.

[justwork]

It wasn't a new jug that was damaged, so that being said if I were you I would cover the cost on parts and ask the shop to cover or greatly discount the labor for replacing the parts that were damaged as a result of removing the damaged exhaust.

[J31]

Hey all,

My plane is currently in for annual. The engine is a Lycoming O-320. Nothing too crazy was found - the only big ticket item was some exhaust repair needed (some cracks in pipe). I received a call one morning and was explained whilst removing the exhaust from the cylinders, one of the studs broke and cracked the cylinder. Apparently it is not repairable and the cylinder must be replaced (I would assume it cracked around the stud hole). However, I have not yet seen the damage.

It is around $1500-$1600 for a re-manufactured cylinder and labor. However, my question is, am I fully responsible for the cost? I do trust the AME's, however, a part of me definitely feels it was preventable. I understand the exhaust is connected to the jug and they would be playing around in that area, but I would have expected the risk would be damaging the exhaust manifold, not the cylinder. These guys are a lot more experienced than myself, but I have dealt with some really nasty exhaust studs & bolts in the past (living in Quebec, salt everywhere = rusted everything) and whilst frustrating to deal with, I have never damaged the surrounding parts. Unfortunately, since I wasn't present to see it happen, I will never fully know exactly how it happened, but as mentioned, a part of me feels that it was probably preventable. (for example: I'd rather pay for 10 hours labor to drill the studs, if that's what it would take).

On the other hand, I don't really want to create a rift with these guys. I do trust them, they've been in business and working on these planes for a very long time. They help me out a lot with free advice. However, I don't think I've had $1500 worth of advice, if you know what I mean.

Definitely a tough scenario. My preference would be to work out some sort of deal with them.
What are your thoughts?

Been several days since you made this post and lots of responses, do you have any updates?

Just to clarify the exhaust is bolted to the cylinder.......there is no exhaust manifold as on a car.

If the cylinder has been on the airplane for 20+ years and the exhaust for 10+ years the studs and nuts will be very corroded. There will be damaged studs to deal with removing the exhaust. Removing corroded, seized, and broken studs even the best aircraft engineers may end up with a damaged or cracked cylinder.

I think this is the case here. The shop is already giving you a deal with a $1500 to replace the cylinder.

If you trust the AME's then they are most likely being honest with you and doing their best to deal with an unexpected expense.

Open and honest communication with your AME's will get you further than trying to beat them down on the price of maintaining ageing aircraft.

[brownbear]

Simply an AME is not responsible to cover parts that fail or break "during the course of maintenance".

I'm not talking about stuff broken from incompetence or accidents.

But disassembly on old planes things break. I agree a discussion should occur about what might break and how it will cost more money if it does. Open clear communication is essential.

[Rookie50]

Hmm.

I think there is a bit of room for negotiation here and a good relationship witn a good AME is invaluable. (Certainly I appreciate mine!). Perhaps some break on labour. Really depends if it was my shoes on my info than is available here.

No one answer but 2 thoughts. Firstly I happily pay for all time my AME spends, advice or actual work. He bills me, fully but fairly IMO. Both of us are happy, and it's a really respectful relationship. And I tell others, I am happy. I trust him completely. I'm very relationship based in my business dealings, I stick to one person / company and work with them.

The other side to RS's point, is the attitude espoused by a few in all industries, that they are entitled to your business, sit down shut up and pay what you are told. Overbilling? Tough.......

Such an attitude would quickly change mine, and I would tell every other pilot I know, too.

I have a long memory, too in my business relationships. There is competition in every industry, AME's are not different in that regards.

Like the "other side" discussing picking (good) customers, when my good intentions in other business relationships have been (rarely) willfully abused, I give zero second chances. One strike policy.

Trust, but verify.

[redlaser]

Some aircraft owners let their aircraft sit for years out in a field rusting away then expect AME's to fix their old rusty buckets, So of course things will break due to rust, Flying often will keep your air raft in good shape and maintenance costs will be lower.

[PilotDAR]

So of course things will break due to rust,

Well, coincidentally, the only thing on a plane which might ever get to the point where it's strength could have been affected by rust would be an exhaust stud - but even then it should not. Exhaust studs are far stronger than the attachment they make. If one is "broken" more likely it pulled out of the cylinder aluminum, or was torqued off because something was seized, and more effort was applied. Otherwise, if parts of your airplane are rusting, and becoming weaker or breaking, you need to have a long hard look at how you maintain your plane!

Flying often will keep your air raft in good shape and maintenance costs will be lower.

Flying your aircraft often will prevent some deterioration, though cause other maintenance costs. I'm not sure that regular flying absolutely reduces maintenance costs, but it can certainly prevent the need for restoration costs!

But, as for exhaust stud condition, frequent flying will have little beneficial affect. Frequent inspection and maintenance may...

[SuperchargedRS]

Some aircraft owners let their aircraft sit for years out in a field rusting away then expect AME's to fix their old rusty buckets, So of course things will break due to rust, Flying often will keep your air raft in good shape and maintenance costs will be lower.

Lol, I had a AME who would call any aircraft "ruff" shy of a plane he had been turning wrenches on and collecting checks on for years.

Could be a brand new plane, "oh yeah, looks ruff" lol.

He was a joke, currently hurting for business for some crazy reason.

[GyvAir]

I hope the OP has made his way out to the airport to see with his own eyes what really occurred leading up to having a cracked cylinder like this.

The number of people on this thread that jumped directly – and sight unseen – to the AMO/AME being fully responsible and liable for a broken stud/cracked cylinder is a little disappointing.

I believe somebody pointed out already, there’s something wrong/missing with the original story. You’re initially going to have either a broken stud, or a stripped/cracked cylinder, not both. Of course, removing the already broken stud could potentially lead to a cracked cylinder.

AMEs and apprentices aren’t infallible, and if this was a case of a mistake on the part of the mechanic, I’ll bet they’ll offer to cover some of the costs to get you flying again. However, no cylinder that had exhaust studs that corroded is worth full new replacement value. The insurance company doesn’t cover the cost of a brand new 2016 Mustang when someone t-bones you and writes off your 1996 Mustang, even if the 2016 is what you want. They cut you a cheque for what it was really worth after 20 years in service, plus something for your inconvenience.

[JAHinYYC]

Is $1500 what a replacement jug would have cost you had you walked in off the street to buy one? If so they are charging you mark up, and full labour? That wouldn't sit well with me.

Odds are an apprentice screwed it up, but we'll never know for sure. Stuff breaks, but most mechanics would eat the labour, or at the very least charge you wholesale cost and eat some of the labour. But I don't know that for sure. Did you sign a maintenance release of some kind that covers this? fine print etc.

+1

If you get a wholesale rate on the new jug and a discount on the labor to install - I would count that as a win.

It comes down to your relationship with the shop. When the bill comes I would advise go and sit with the shop owner and have an adult conversation about sharing the costs.

[Blakey]

I will refrain from commenting about the "unfortunate occurance"...

Realistically, what other Mx providers do you have at your disposal and is this a "hill you are ready to die on"?

Been there, done that before...

All the best,
TPC

Funny you should mention that!

If you are referring to what I think you might be it's "kinda funny" now, but in the heat of the moment there was nothing "funny" about it whatsoever! (Even with your calm and graceful manners I suspect you would have blown your top too!)

All the best,
TPC

Not funny as in "I laugh when I think of what you went through." but funny as in "I'm having a bit of the same experience right now as I'm having some major work done at another facility and interesting things are coming to light regarding maintenance that was done at the same facility you had issues with."

[zealer]

Hey all, I am back after a nice vacation...

Unfortunately, I have still not yet seen or spoken to the AME in person. I left March 1st for a 4 week vacation. I am hoping tomorrow I will be able to meet and discuss the above mentioned events with the AME's. I have yet to see the final bill and work order, but I have heard I am in for a few nasty surprises... anyway only tomorrow will tell.

Yes $1500 CAD and is for both cylinder and install (part + labor).

Some have mentioned what I would expect if this type of thing happened with a car of mine. With a car, frankly, I'd expect the whole cost of the part and labor to be covered (and in similar situations, it has been with no fuss necessary). Now, a car is somewhat different because there aren't that many singular $1500 dollar pieces, so if a mechanic brakes something on a car, it is usually a lot lower (ex: had a mech break the flexpipe while changing a transmission - $200 part, a fraction of $1500). Also, I don't really have any personal or friendly relationships with a car mechanic. I typically do all the work on my car myself (I'm quite handy).

Definitely a tough situation. Again, I haven't seen or heard the entire story of what happened. But I feel that most likely there was a moment of inattention which now may end up costing me a good chunk of change. The AME did suggest it was possible the crack was already there, but personally, I don't think so. He sounded sheepish on the phone.

The exhaust, if I recall, had last been removed in 2014 or 2013 for repair, perhaps even changed entirely (have to check logs, which are not with me at the moment).

In my experience (not saying I know everything), these types of situations are usually avoidable if taking extra care. Sure, might take a lot of man hours, but even 10hrs@$75/hr is much cheaper than a new cylinder. Unfortunately, this is still all hypothetical until I get a visual on the jug.

Now, I understand 'feel' is not the same as knowing, and I will never know for sure, but hopefully tomorrow I will get a much clearer picture of what happened, and I'll decide on how to proceed from there. At my work, the business eats the cost when I or another employee makes a mistake, or at the very minimum, we give them a killer deal.

Where payment is due, I will gladly pay...
Hopefully will have an update tomorrow or monday that satisfies all parties involved...
Cheers

[co-joe]

So the stud is threaded into the jug and then the manifold is held onto the stud by a nut? Just visualising. Would a tap with a hammer and maybe a brass bar be normal to dislodge the stud and/or the manifold? Pretty easy to overdo that.

[DonutHole]

If I see an exhaust issue I say something before I pull it. The same thing every time. If the exhaust had to come off, chances are a stud is going to break. It doesn't happen all the time, but enough that before I take the exhaust off I always mention to the owner that they're on the hook if a stud does break.

Studs break, and if it takes a cylinder with it, too bad, that's not the risk of doing maintenance, it's the risk of owning a machine.

Is there an Ame out there anywhere who hasn't had a stud break?

[culver10]

I have also seen the aluminum under the exhaust flange so corroded that there was nothing left for the flange to seal to. Chunks of corroded aluminum came off with the flange gasket.. And yes, I have also broken exhaust studs while trying to remove exhaust nut.

[PilotDAR]

I feel that it was most likely their mistake. In my experience (not saying I know everything), these types of situations are usually avoidable if taking extra care. Sure, might take a lot of man hours, but even 10hrs@$75/hr is much cheaper than a new cylinder.

Well, possibly extra care could have prevented this, but more likely not. Yes, the AME could expend lots of extra care - all the time, and all of your maintenance will be $750 more expensive per task. Per inspection that would ceertainly increase the cost thousands of dollars. It is rare that a common task such as removing an exhaust nut or stud can be recognized in advance as requiring extra care - just that time!

You do not own an aircraft which was designed to be equally easy to maintain throughout its life - none of us do. Nearly everything about your plane is to some degree consumable. As it is consumed, it will be more likely to break, and more expensive to maintain. That is your responsibility, not the maintainer's.

You might reduce this effect by "re-n-re" type preventative maintenance, but my opinion is that you're just asking for more trouble doing this. Mike Busch's book "Manifesto" supports this point of view. Replacing a cylinder is a bit of a hard hit, but in my opinion, it's in the realm to be expected during maintenance. I am certain that pushing back against the AME on this will cost you more in the long run, as if the AME/shop has to absorb this cost, they will spread it back to you (and everyone else) with the greater and longer term "extra care" cost. I suggest to listen to their offer, which I hope contains terms like "at our cost" and a few hours of free labour, and give them a reassuring smile of acceptance, as you agree.

[iflyforpie]

Make sure the exhaust is reinstalled with corrosion resistant hardware (nothing cad-plated belongs anywhere on exhaust) and with antiseize applied to the threads to help prevent this from happening in the future.

[crazyaviator]

Every 4-5 yrs or 200 hrs when there is rusting or blowby detected is the best time to COMPLETELY remove ALL exhaust components BUT WHO does preventative maintenance anymore?

[LousyFisherman]

If I see an exhaust issue I say something before I pull it. The same thing every time. If the exhaust had to come off, chances are a stud is going to break. It doesn't happen all the time, but enough that before I take the exhaust off I always mention to the owner that they're on the hook if a stud does break.
Studs break, and if it takes a cylinder with it, too bad, that's not the risk of doing maintenance, it's the risk of owning a machine.
Is there an Ame out there anywhere who hasn't had a stud break?

Donuthole, I agree 100%, I'm not a mechanic or AME but I know exhaust equipment, especially studs, are among the worst for breakage. A phone call or text about it, before it happens, is all I need to be kept happy. Without the warning, I'm left wondering, like the OP

YMMV
LF

[Heliian]

Every 4-5 yrs or 200 hrs when there is rusting or blowby detected is the best time to COMPLETELY remove ALL exhaust components BUT WHO does preventative maintenance anymore?

Exactly, this guys cessna exhaust hadn't been touched in 23 years and the cylindre cracked, no real surprise.

The bulk of my piston engine work is in small helicopters. 320's 360's 540's and such. Not once has a stud ever broken on me on these machines. The reason is the tighter maintenance schedule and overhaul limits.

So you save money by going on condition to start but then you come to a problem like this and it costs money. That is the cost of aircraft ownership. You should really just accept it as the cost of owning an airplane and tally it in to your engine overhaul costs as you'll have to spend more money eventually.

[Beefitarian]

Exactly, this guys cessna exhaust hadn't been touched in 23 years and the cylindre cracked, no real surprise.

O'rilly?

The exhaust, if I recall, had last been removed in 2014 or 2013 for repair, perhaps even changed entirely (have to check logs, which are not with me at the moment).