ATC Handoff Questions (Tower->Terminal->Tower)

[photofly]

It's straightforward to pull the data on aircraft movements out of CANSIM table 401-0007.

For the entirety of 2015, Victoria Intl. had 139,286 movements. Toronto City Centre Billy Bishop had 122,242.

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In 2015, CYTZ had more movements than CYYJ in August, October and November. Data for any part of 2016 is not yet available.

[16SidedOffice]

Fair enough but either way it was already established that YTZ has procedures but not enough staff to fill an inner and outer tower position. In busier units it only make sense to break up the traffic load.

[Driving Comet]

It's straightforward to pull the data on aircraft movements out of CANSIM table 401-0007.

For the entirety of 2015, Victoria Intl. had 139,286 movements. Toronto City Centre Billy Bishop had 122,242.


In 2015, CYTZ had more movements than CYYJ in August, October and November. Data for any part of 2016 is not yet available.

Maybe it's because I'm on my phone but I can't find any 2015 tables. Do you see any tables for overflights? 122,242 doesn't include overflights or sightseeing aircraft; we broke 140,000 all in. Might not even include the medevacs in and out of the hospitals. Curious as to know what a place like YYJ or ZBB do for those categories.

Fair enough but either way it was already established that YTZ has procedures but not enough staff to fill an inner and outer tower position. In busier units it only make sense to break up the traffic load.

I agree that an efficient two tower operation decreases controller workload, in most cases. A lot of days I wish we had the staff to try it out.

[Rookie50]

I don't know where you work, but I guess you haven't been to the YYZ area in a while and seen the operations. At least not since Porter started. Keep an eye out for the numbers from last year. I think we're getting close to YYJ and ZBB

Wasn't trying to offend anyone, it just is what it is. Porter started in 2006, I'm looking at 2014 numbers as 2015's are hard to come by. There's still quite a ways to go to catch up to YYJ who isn't slot controlled like YTZ plus their CZ is quite massive in comparison with a huge mix in types compared to as well. The whole point was about the inner and outer tower positions, not who's busier.

Maybe it's splitting hairs, why then is the CZ so big? Here I'm used to flying talking to YYZ Terminal, split with many frequencies / sectors. Isn't that a more efficient system than having to talk to a tower for area flights?

[photofly]

Do you see any tables for overflights?

Found it. The data is in table 401-0010 - transit-only aircraft are classified as "Runway 88" movements.
Totals for the year 2015:
Victoria: 30,817
Billy Bishop: 22,074


The data for January 2016 is out today. Movements (not including runway 88):
Victoria: 8,505
Billy Bishop: 7,647

[photofly]

Maybe it's splitting hairs, why then is the CZ so big?

The CYYJ control zone is circular, radius 7nm, therefore with an area of 153 sq. nm. That is the same as Pearson, Hamilton (approximately) and many others.

The CYTZ control zone is irregular in shape and extends from a minimum of 3.5nm from the airport to the south west, to a maximum of 7.8nm to the north east. It's not significantly different in area from a regular 5nm circular zone which would have an area of 78 sq. nm.

I suppose one could argue that a small control zone for roughly the same number of movements is going to be a higher workload on ATC officers. In a bigger zone there's more space to put airplanes. Is there any truth in that?

[16SidedOffice]

I've never been there but YYJ's CZ is very irregular in shape. The Class C actually extends to almost 12nm to the WNW and almost 18nm to the N above 1200 to 2500 as Class D. That right there is a good reason for having an inner and outer tower. I wouldn't say that a larger CZ makes for more space to put airplanes as things just aren't run like that but it does mean a much larger area to scan and keep an eye on everything.

[Rookie50]

I've never been there but YYJ's CZ is very irregular in shape. The Class C actually extends to almost 12nm to the WNW and almost 18nm to the N above 1200 to 2500 as Class D. That right there is a good reason for having an inner and outer tower. I wouldn't say that a larger CZ makes for more space to put airplanes as things just aren't run like that but it does mean a much larger area to scan and keep an eye on everything.

18NM! Why isn't that terminal airspace? Yeah I see the Logic to an outer tower with that size.....

Guess it's left coast uniqueness....

[photofly]

I've never been there but YYJ's CZ is very irregular in shape. The Class C actually extends to almost 12nm to the WNW and almost 18nm to the N above 1200 to 2500 as Class D.

I think you're confusing the control zone with other class C airspace. The YYJ control zone is nearly circular at 7nm except for a small bit of US territory cut out. That's in the DAH, the VNC and the VTA.

There's a lot of other class C airspace around CYTZ too.

[16SidedOffice]

Why would it need to be Terminal Airspace? How many areas can you think (none that I know of at least) that have TCA down to the surface or even 1000agl. The Towers generally system wide also have the staff to run their airspace (CYYJ granted will be increasingly short however).

I'm not confusing it with the Terminal Class C at all. It's in the VTA.

[photofly]

Looks very circular to me...

[16SidedOffice]

Try extending outwards a few miles. Is that chart current?

[photofly]

Yes, the chart is current. The CZ boundary is marked by the ] symbols. the (7nm, nearly circular) control zone is where (by definition) controlled airspace extends to the surface - "SFC". That is clear on your chart extract.

[Rookie50]

Try extending outwards a few miles. Is that chart current?

I'm looking at it. Next question is, Why then does tower even need low level control outside the 7 Nm CZ indicated on the chart? Don't follow --

[16SidedOffice]

Read the rest of it where it says to the NW Above 700 to 2500, Class C contact YYJ Twr 119.1. To the North Above 1200 to 1500 Class D Contact 119.1.
As for why? I'm no airspace planner, but I would put my money on the amount of traffic. Mixed class of mostly VFR of ALL types as well as a fair amount of IFR.

[photofly]

Here's what the Designated Airspace Handbook has to say about the Victoria Intl control zone. It's authoritative:

3.1.4-17 Victoria, BC:
3.1.4-18 The airspace to 2500´ (2400´ AAE) within the area bounded by a line beginning at:
N48°38'28.32" W123°15'00.24" Can/USA bdry \ thence clockwise along the arc of a circle of
7 miles radius centred on
N48°38'49.30" W123°25'32.80" (Victoria Intl, BC - AD) \ to
N48°41'41.16" W123°15'54.65" Can/USA bdry \ to
N48°38'28.32" W123°15'00.24" Can/USA bdry \ point of beginning

Definitively no more than 7nm radius.

I found an old version (2007) of the DAH that had a very complicated CZ structure approximately (but not exactly) including the area you were referring to, but it has been tidied considerably since then and that area to the NW of YYJ is now outside the CZ. Perhaps your experience predates those changes.

As far as the chart is concerned, as you point out, there's airspace outside of the CZ whose controlling agency is the Tower, but that doesn't make it part of the Control Zone. It's either part of the TCA, or it's a Control Area Extension, or a Transition Area. (My head is spinning from too many lat/longs to check which.)

Why is the distinction important? Because there are CARs that apply only within control zones, like the VFR weather minimum of 3sm ground visibility (where reported) that doesn't apply in the area to which you refer.

Conversely, YYZ has a sliver of it's CZ controlled by Terminal and not the Tower. It's still part of the CZ.

Rookie50's point is that around CYTZ, airspace that far away from the runways is controlled by a second controller (typically Satellites East, or Satellites West) who happens to be at the Pearson ACC. At YYJ they also have a second controller for "outer" traffic, only he sits in the Tower. Same difference.

[16SidedOffice]

Regardless of how you choose to interpret the airspace, responsibility in this case still lies at the Tower. If it's a CAE, it's still part of his or her AOR and still counts as part of their traffic. The area around YTZ that is or isn't handled by Satellites East or West is most likely a different class of airspace (1800nm from my AOR so I don't really know or care) as the ACC's don't control Class D airspace. So far off topic from transiting VFR to Victoria.

[photofly]

The area around YTZ that is or isn't handled by Satellites East or West is most likely a different class of airspace

It's the Class C that's part of the YYZ TCA, and the Class E below. There's no class D.

[16SidedOffice]

Ok, but what does it have to do with transiting to YYJ? Class C, D and Class E are different for a reason.

[photofly]

I think we got here by asking why YYJ needs an inner and outer tower when it's hardly any busier than YTZ that manages with one tower position. The conclusion seems to be that YYJ tower manages airspace of a class and volume that somewhat matches both CYTZ tower's AOR plus CYYZ satellites East/West.

[16SidedOffice]

I don't that you can accurately compare either operation based on having similar traffic stats. There's just so much more to each unit.

[Big Pistons Forever]

At one moment in time the YYJ Control Tower personnel could be dealing with all of the following

- A C 172 checking in at Somenos lake in bound for landing
- A C 172 checking in at Mount Doug in bound for circuits
- A Turbo Otter off of Victoria harbour requesting the overhead transit to Vancouver
- A Beaver on floats by Pender harbour looking for the low level transit to Pat Bay
- A Dash 8 by Beaver point looking for the straight in to Rwy 14
- A 737 joining the ILS 09 at 9 miles
- 2 C 172's downwind 09 for touch and go's
- A homebuilt on short final 09 for a full stop and North side exit
- A C185 floatplane ready for the West Bound slide, low level departure west bound in Pat Bay
- An RCAF Sea King holding on Delta looking for the low level transit South
- An R44 doing hover training in the 03 infield
- A Saab 340 holding on Rwy 03 ready for takeoff

No other airport in Canada has such a varied mix of traffic and skill levels. It would be impossible to manage without dedicated inner and outer frequencies.

[Driving Comet]

At one moment in time the YYJ Control Tower personnel could be dealing with all of the following

- A C 172 checking in at Somenos lake in bound for landing
- A C 172 checking in at Mount Doug in bound for circuits
- A Turbo Otter off of Victoria harbour requesting the overhead transit to Vancouver
- A Beaver on floats by Pender harbour looking for the low level transit to Pat Bay
- A Dash 8 by Beaver point looking for the straight in to Rwy 14
- A 737 joining the ILS 09 at 9 miles
- 2 C 172's downwind 09 for touch and go's
- A homebuilt on short final 09 for a full stop and North side exit
- A C185 floatplane ready for the West Bound slide, low level departure west bound in Pat Bay
- An RCAF Sea King holding on Delta looking for the low level transit South
- An R44 doing hover training in the 03 infield
- A Saab 340 holding on Rwy 03 ready for takeoff

No other airport in Canada has such a varied mix of traffic and skill levels. It would be impossible to manage without dedicated inner and outer frequencies.

I can sit here and list all the complex and high volume traffic we run as well (just as complex as you make this sound, by the way), everyone can. It's so much more than number of planes and what they want. You might be impressed and think this is complex, maybe it is, but maybe the feet stayed firmly planted up on the console.

Not a dig at YYJ tower either. Seems like they run a smooth operation from what a hear; not something that is easy to do a lot of time. It's on my short list of places to go out and see this summer.

As for the extra control area outside the CZ. I wonder if this a tower radar area... I didn't know of any towers this had this sort of thing that it's outside the actual CZ. Pretty interesting if it is.

[16SidedOffice]

YVR has a rather large Tower radar area as well, extending out 13nm from the south to northwest to cover the float, heli and other VFR traffic.
I wouldn't say every controller was rolling their eyes (well maybe all of the IFR guys ), there aren't many airport operations with the mix of traffic like that in the country.

[AirRookie]

2. On the VTA you will see that there are 2 routes guaranteed to allow you to cross at a minimum of 4500' regardless of how badly NavCanada Surrey has failed to deal with their staffing requirements. DO NOT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER. Do not accept "You'll have to stay at 2500' to keep clear of the class C". Do not accept any BS. Tell them which of the two routes on the VTA you want and what altitude you are going to be at. If it's a particularly bad day, you may have to give up on getting an answer from YVR TML and call YYJ TML instead to get clearance across the straight. Be patient, give yourself 5 minutes extra time to have a good plan and clearance before crossing, and go have a nice flight.

After a great flight last time I went over again yesterday. This time YVR terminal denied me entry into the class C with no explanation (I'm assuming they were busy), but what can you do in that situation? Can't exactly waste frequency time discussing CARS or CFS procedures if they're super busy, is the option to go 2500' (which I did) or call up YYJ? Can YYJ clear me through YVRs airspace (the short stretch over Point Roberts)?