Entry Level Float Pilot

[Flyer85]

So just came across a recent posting for a dockhand, with the chance of possibly one day being able to fly. Just for fun I thought I'd crunch the numbers from the job add. Advertising a salary of $30,000 per year, to work 6 days a week, 12-14 hours a day. Let's be generous and say 12 hours a day (we all know it would likely be more). Works out to less than $8.70/hr worked. More than $2.50/hr less than minimum wage. Is that even legal?? No wonder this industry is a joke!

[timel]

30k if you live in your mother basement, that is pretty good money. You will be able to afford alcool and have the possibility to put some money aside for your future 1000000$ house in Toronto and RRSPs.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-est ... e24044731/

image.jpg (90.48 KiB) Viewed 3659 times

[BeaverDreamer]

Not to mention it isn't even a year-round position...

At least the posting is honest!

[awitzke]

Slate Falls has a very good rep for getting dock hands into flying positions quickly. If you can get your foot in the door there it will lead to a lot of flying when you get flight line. I'm not an advocate for dock/ramp jobs but if you float flying is what you want SFA is a good place to be. I know a few pilots who work and worked there and now moved into bigger operations but say that was some of the best flying they've done.

[Meatservo]

I actually kind of DO advocate dock/ramp work. In my experience brand-new commercial pilots, with exceptions, can be extremely unworldly and lack a lot of very basic knowledge, not only specific knowledge of the industry, but also general knowledge, like what it's like to have a job, their responsibilities as adults, the ins and outs of things they will need to be successful as pilots other than just being able to fly a plane.

There are a couple of solutions to this; one would be an extremely attenuated checkout process whereby the chief pilot or training captain holds a prospective pilot's hand for the better part of a season until the company has enough confidence in that individual to set them off on their own, OR, have a process whereby the prospective pilot is able to demonstrate their common sense, work ethic and maturity BEFORE having to commit to spending valuable time training them for a job they very well might not be able to handle. I wouldn't dream of hiring a guy fresh out of school and putting him right into a plane. Especially at an outfit where pilots are expected to act as P.I.C. right off the hop. It's not reasonable.

The older pilots among you must agree with this- I hope? I've met candidates fresh out of flying school of whom I've sincerely wondered- do they even have a pilot's license? They sure as hell are going to need a lot of work before I allow them to do a takeoff or landing- and can they even fuel or load a plane? Can they tie knots? Can they lift anything heavy? Do they have any common sense? Do they have any basic mechanical aptitude? Can they read a map? Can I trust them? Can they even be trusted to drive the company truck? Sorry but people are not required to demonstrate knowledge on these subjects in flying school. Therefore they must demonstrate them on the job -before I let them anywhere near a plane.

I understand that the jobs most of you young people want these days have no actual requirements other than looking good in a "selfie" in your white shirt with meaningless and unearned rank-bars on the shoulders. The job you guys are slagging off here- ain't one of those jobs. It's a real job, requiring real aptitude and real responsibility and real sense- and they aren't teaching that in any flying school I know of.

Flying is an important job requiring dedication and skill. Especially float-flying. Quit trying to get off easy and put in the time. Your education isn't over. I would expect you would know that. It's one of the things I'm looking for in a pilot.

Unfortunately $30000/year isn't a lot of dough. But if you can't see what you stand to gain in the long-term by putting in the effort at this entry-level job, then please, please don't apply for it.

[Independence]

I got to agree with Meat on this one. Not the newbies fault but going from an environment where the school may not even let you add oil to the engine and sometimes have weather minimums above legal VFR conditions, I can't in good faith let you blast off with someones family on board.

If you don't learn anything working the ramp or the dock then you aren't going to be a very good pilot.

[timel]

I agree with Meatservo, also flying for small operators is all about people willing to make the extra effort and go beyond what is asked of them in order to make it work, it doesn't mean you have to become a slave, but if you start counting every second on your bill, you might find it rough. It makes sense they test peoples on the ramp, before they give them an airplane full of barrels to unload in the bush.

Jokes aside, 30000$ for a first ramp/pilot job isn't that bad, I made much less than that my first and second years as a pilot.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I actually kind of DO advocate dock/ramp work. In my experience brand-new commercial pilots, with exceptions, can be extremely unworldly and lack a lot of very basic knowledge, not only specific knowledge of the industry, but also general knowledge, like what it's like to have a job, their responsibilities as adults, the ins and outs of things they will need to be successful as pilots other than just being able to fly a plane.

There are a couple of solutions to this; one would be an extremely attenuated checkout process whereby the chief pilot or training captain holds a prospective pilot's hand for the better part of a season until the company has enough confidence in that individual to set them off on their own, OR, have a process whereby the prospective pilot is able to demonstrate their common sense, work ethic and maturity BEFORE having to commit to spending valuable time training them for a job they very well might not be able to handle. I wouldn't dream of hiring a guy fresh out of school and putting him right into a plane. Especially at an outfit where pilots are expected to act as P.I.C. right off the hop. It's not reasonable.

The older pilots among you must agree with this- I hope? I've met candidates fresh out of flying school of whom I've sincerely wondered- do they even have a pilot's license? They sure as hell are going to need a lot of work before I allow them to do a takeoff or landing- and can they even fuel or load a plane? Can they tie knots? Can they lift anything heavy? Do they have any common sense? Do they have any basic mechanical aptitude? Can they read a map? Can I trust them? Can they even be trusted to drive the company truck? Sorry but people are not required to demonstrate knowledge on these subjects in flying school. Therefore they must demonstrate them on the job -before I let them anywhere near a plane.

I understand that the jobs most of you young people want these days have no actual requirements other than looking good in a "selfie" in your white shirt with meaningless and unearned rank-bars on the shoulders. The job you guys are slagging off here- ain't one of those jobs. It's a real job, requiring real aptitude and real responsibility and real sense- and they aren't teaching that in any flying school I know of.

Flying is an important job requiring dedication and skill. Especially float-flying. Quit trying to get off easy and put in the time. Your education isn't over. I would expect you would know that. It's one of the things I'm looking for in a pilot.

Unfortunately $30000/year isn't a lot of dough. But if you can't see what you stand to gain in the long-term by putting in the effort at this entry-level job, then please, please don't apply for it.

Spot on and well said! *burp*

[SuperchargedRS]

I actually kind of DO advocate dock/ramp work. In my experience brand-new commercial pilots, with exceptions, can be extremely unworldly and lack a lot of very basic knowledge, not only specific knowledge of the industry, but also general knowledge, like what it's like to have a job, their responsibilities as adults, the ins and outs of things they will need to be successful as pilots other than just being able to fly a plane.

There are a couple of solutions to this; one would be an extremely attenuated checkout process whereby the chief pilot or training captain holds a prospective pilot's hand for the better part of a season until the company has enough confidence in that individual to set them off on their own, OR, have a process whereby the prospective pilot is able to demonstrate their common sense, work ethic and maturity BEFORE having to commit to spending valuable time training them for a job they very well might not be able to handle. I wouldn't dream of hiring a guy fresh out of school and putting him right into a plane. Especially at an outfit where pilots are expected to act as P.I.C. right off the hop. It's not reasonable.

The older pilots among you must agree with this- I hope? I've met candidates fresh out of flying school of whom I've sincerely wondered- do they even have a pilot's license? They sure as hell are going to need a lot of work before I allow them to do a takeoff or landing- and can they even fuel or load a plane? Can they tie knots? Can they lift anything heavy? Do they have any common sense? Do they have any basic mechanical aptitude? Can they read a map? Can I trust them? Can they even be trusted to drive the company truck? Sorry but people are not required to demonstrate knowledge on these subjects in flying school. Therefore they must demonstrate them on the job -before I let them anywhere near a plane.

I understand that the jobs most of you young people want these days have no actual requirements other than looking good in a "selfie" in your white shirt with meaningless and unearned rank-bars on the shoulders. The job you guys are slagging off here- ain't one of those jobs. It's a real job, requiring real aptitude and real responsibility and real sense- and they aren't teaching that in any flying school I know of.

Flying is an important job requiring dedication and skill. Especially float-flying. Quit trying to get off easy and put in the time. Your education isn't over. I would expect you would know that. It's one of the things I'm looking for in a pilot.

Unfortunately $30000/year isn't a lot of dough. But if you can't see what you stand to gain in the long-term by putting in the effort at this entry-level job, then please, please don't apply for it.

Yeah, but that's doesn't make it OK to dangle a carrot and take advantage of these idiotic kids.
It's like having the neghiborhood retard do manual labor for you in trade for skittles, just because he will doesn't mean you arnt a d1ck.

As for how to make sure you get pilots who actually are adults and have adult life skills, well step the socialism down a bit, stop government funded flight training, have these kids get jobs and pay for their own damn flight training, quit stretching childhood out, once your kid is able bodied the should have a damn job and also be pulling their weight at home.

That's the problem, this soft shoed sacialistic "education" that's going on now days, it breeds soft and useless people, sorry.

[Meatservo]

I understand what you are saying, but I stand by my opinion. Picking artichokes until one has saved up enough money to go to flying school speaks well of one's character, and I would never criticize someone for being able to accomplish that. But unless I have personally observed a person picking the artichokes, I still have no way of knowing whether he has the attributes I consider necessary to independently operate one of my company's aircraft.

I mean, using your analogy, if I'm advertising that I have some yard work to do in return for skittles, and I put in the advertisement that if an applicant turns out not to be a retard, I'll be willing to pay them beers instead in return for more meaningful work, but only retards apply for the job, ...

Hmm, I'm having trouble making the analogy fit the circumstances....

Well, I guess if a bunch of retards apply for the skittle job, and one of them looks like he might NOT be a retard, it would still be wise to make him work for skittles for a while to see if you're not wrong. Because if it turns out that Yup! He's a retard!.. You won't have wasted any beer.

[SuperchargedRS]

Or just look at their resume, talk to past employers, standard issue deal.

Now if sunny has nothing on his CV, or just has one job as a donut stuffer at timmys, well maybe tell him you're not sure if he's ready for a adult job as he has no HISTORY of working as an adult, you noticed he has had no adult jobs in the past and the only way you'll take jr on is if he does mindless work for skittles for a summer. That said this scenario should be the exception NOT the rule.

[CpnCrunch]

Lots of people saying this is fine, but neglecting the fact pointed out by the OP that it is way below minimum wage, and therefore illegal.

Why, exactly, is it ok to use pilots as slave labour?

There's lots of righteous indignation here when pilots accept underpaid positions, or pay to fly, but you're all happy with pilots being paid below minimum wage?!

[timel]

It is all assumptions, no?
Obviously if the guy makes extra hours, he should get paid for his time.

[PilotDAR]

I actually kind of DO advocate dock/ramp work. In my experience brand-new commercial pilots, with exceptions, can be extremely unworldly and lack a lot of very basic knowledge, not only specific knowledge of the industry, but also general knowledge, like what it's like to have a job, their responsibilities as adults, the ins and outs of things they will need to be successful as pilots other than just being able to fly a plane.

There are a couple of solutions to this; one would be an extremely attenuated checkout process whereby the chief pilot or training captain holds a prospective pilot's hand for the better part of a season until the company has enough confidence in that individual to set them off on their own, OR, have a process whereby the prospective pilot is able to demonstrate their common sense, work ethic and maturity BEFORE having to commit to spending valuable time training them for a job they very well might not be able to handle. I wouldn't dream of hiring a guy fresh out of school and putting him right into a plane. Especially at an outfit where pilots are expected to act as P.I.C. right off the hop. It's not reasonable.

The older pilots among you must agree with this- I hope? I've met candidates fresh out of flying school of whom I've sincerely wondered- do they even have a pilot's license? They sure as hell are going to need a lot of work before I allow them to do a takeoff or landing- and can they even fuel or load a plane? Can they tie knots? Can they lift anything heavy? Do they have any common sense? Do they have any basic mechanical aptitude? Can they read a map? Can I trust them? Can they even be trusted to drive the company truck? Sorry but people are not required to demonstrate knowledge on these subjects in flying school. Therefore they must demonstrate them on the job -before I let them anywhere near a plane.

I understand that the jobs most of you young people want these days have no actual requirements other than looking good in a "selfie" in your white shirt with meaningless and unearned rank-bars on the shoulders. The job you guys are slagging off here- ain't one of those jobs. It's a real job, requiring real aptitude and real responsibility and real sense- and they aren't teaching that in any flying school I know of.

Flying is an important job requiring dedication and skill. Especially float-flying. Quit trying to get off easy and put in the time. Your education isn't over. I would expect you would know that. It's one of the things I'm looking for in a pilot.

Unfortunately $30000/year isn't a lot of dough. But if you can't see what you stand to gain in the long-term by putting in the effort at this entry-level job, then please, please don't apply for it.

I heartily agree - excellent post, all newbies should read.

Newbies, rightly or wrongly, the more senior people in this industry have paid their dues, one way or another, to get to the place where they can consider hiring you. It's not malicious on their part, that they want some investment and commitment from you, before they commit to you, it's just fair. If you apply for, and get the job, and then honestly apply good skill and dedication to it, you probably have nothing to worry about, in terms of advancing. For my experience, I, and other people I know advanced faster than expected, as the boss saw what he was looking for.

It may seem frustrating that the pay is not good, for the very entry level position, but if the newbie is entry level, or perceived as such, that means that they are not bringing a lot of experience with them. Someone has to subsidize that experience building (and take some risk), so they will compensate for that economically.

Or, the newbie buys a plane, and builds a few hundred hours experience, which is then attractive to a potential employer. That will cost more than compensating for the poor salary and long hours of building from the entry position. It's just the way it is...

[digits_]

Newbies, rightly or wrongly, the more senior people in this industry have paid their dues, one way or another, to get to the place where they can consider hiring you. It's not malicious on their part, that they want some investment and commitment from you, before they commit to you, it's just fair. If you apply for, and get the job, and then honestly apply good skill and dedication to it, you probably have nothing to worry about, in terms of advancing. For my experience, I, and other people I know advanced faster than expected, as the boss saw what he was looking for.

So because you are good at fuelling planes and know some knots you are a good pilot ? If you want to judge pilots on their skills, then have them fly planes. Fly a 172 before you put them in a beaver so you can actually judge their flying skills. One or two flights should tell you all you need to know, you don't have to abuse them a whole season to find out.

It may seem frustrating that the pay is not good, for the very entry level position, but if the newbie is entry level, or perceived as such, that means that they are not bringing a lot of experience with them. Someone has to subsidize that experience building (and take some risk), so they will compensate for that economically.

It is frustrating that, based on the info from the ad, the pay is ILLEGAL. And again: how does loading airplanes build experience as a pilot ? I really don't get it.

[CpnCrunch]

It is all assumptions, no?
Obviously if the guy makes extra hours, he should get paid for his time.

No, the job posting says pay is $30k and most days are 12-14 hours. Perhaps the person writing the job posting got it wrong and it's actually $30k based on an 8 hour day, and you'll typically be paid a lot more than that as you'll be working 12-14 hours. However if that was the case why didn't they write that in the job posting? Anyway, it seems dangerous to assume that the pay is higher than the job posting actually says!

A simple solution to this dilemma is for someone to simply phone up the company and ask.

[timel]

So because you are good at fuelling planes and know some knots you are a good pilot ? If you want to judge...

The guy can have all the commercial qualification and good skills, but if he is a sloopy ass with poor work ethics, it will be easier to figure it out after a few weeks on the ramp.


I agree with you CpnCrunch, put the guy on the ramp the time needed, but they are no reasons why he should buy his job. Through the years I have put water in my wine with the pay, the line is thin, there are things you can accept but fair pay and fair work go together.

[PilotDAR]

If you want to judge pilots on their skills, then have them fly planes.

Interesting theory. However, perhaps the employer would like to hire a dedicated employee, whose tasks will include flying planes. It's a lot cheaper to find out if they will be a good employee with some less risk, and less costly work experience first. If the pilot is too good to work the dock, they must be too good to fly the plane too!

Working the dock or the ramp, is being given a chance [to prove one's self]. Seeing it as beneath you will be cheating yourself out of some really good job opportunities. (Though I agree, there could be some rather undesirable ones mixed in too).

12 hour work days? Perhaps, though if I understand correctly, most jurisdictions have legal maximums for work hours by the week and month, to exactly prevent running employees to death.

[digits_]

If you want to judge pilots on their skills, then have them fly planes.

Interesting theory. However, perhaps the employer would like to hire a dedicated employee, whose tasks will include flying planes. It's a lot cheaper to find out if they will be a good employee with some less risk, and less costly work experience first. If the pilot is too good to work the dock, they must be too good to fly the plane too!

Sure, but that is something you can figure out after a week, two weeks tops. If, as a business manager, you can not judge a person's character after working fulltime with him/her for 2 weeks, I seriously fear for your business. (you = the float operator, not you personally)

Working the dock or the ramp, is being given a chance [to prove one's self]. Seeing it as beneath you will be cheating yourself out of some really good job opportunities. (Though I agree, there could be some rather undesirable ones mixed in too).

Requiring people to work for you for less than minimum wage for a few months to have a chance at flying your airplane will be cheating yourself out of some really good pilots. Let's face it, the only people who would accept a position like this are people that couldn't find a flying job somewhere else. If we assume that the "better pilots" find jobs first (not always correct, but in general - probably ?) , the average "level" of pilots applying for these jobs is most likely slightly lower.

Don't get me wrong here, lots of great pilots could apply and work here as well, I just want to point out that as a business owner you might get cheap labor out of it, but not necessarily the best pilots. But then again, they might not be looking for that. I was also very close to applying for similar positions a few years ago, but I am very glad I didn't have to/found something else just in time.

12 hour work days? Perhaps, though if I understand correctly, most jurisdictions have legal maximums for work hours by the week and month, to exactly prevent running employees to death.

Yes, they have, and this ad is basically saying they don't care and will work you 14 yours a day for 6 days/week for a salary below minimum wage. Illegal. But kudos to them for being upfront about it.

[dogone]

I agree with MEAT. Too many kids with who think they are too important to lift a bag and not enough with the will to work. Question to important people; If you step out of flight school right in to a loaded Beaver and take off: WHO DOES THE UNLOADING AT ARRIVAL? You are to important and there is no one there. I guess you just turn around and fly back loaded!

[PilotDAR]

Requiring people to work for you for less than minimum wage for a few months to have a chance at flying your airplane will be cheating yourself out of some really good pilots.

Quite true! Things can get taken too far in that regard. Thinking back many decades, when I was in the runway based parallel situation as a very junior co-pilot type, true flying for me was a ways off, but the employer did give me flying perks, like left seat in the Piper Cheyenne when there was no one in the back. I recognized that there was hard, boring work that had to be done, and that was mine for the time being, and there were really nice perks every now and then. The balance was okay for me. I trust that an employer worth working for while posting the "facts" of the job, has perks in mind for the pilots that they would like to retain...

[chilly]

This is not even the lowest paying dock position available on av can right now. But in my opinion if a guy thinks its beneficial to take a position like this then good for him.

My first job in the industry was on the dock paid by the hour just a touch above min wage with housing and they allowed you to work as many hours as you want because the list of things to do is never ending. Or if you wanted to take off early to choke the old chicken no one would stop you, but you likely wouldn't be coming back to fly the following year. That is how you really find out a persons worth/work ethic when you give them the option to work or not. Pay them a fair wage so they can atleast afford to get a case at the end of the week and everyone will be happy.

[Meatservo]

Regardless of work ethic, the ol'chicken isn't going to choke itself, that's for sure.

[Rockie]

The job ad poster is up front in saying that it is not a flying job, it is a dock job with only a "chance" at flying later if they like you. If someone wants to be a hard working dock hand then fill your boots, but I wouldn't advise any new pilot to apply unless it was a flying job that also included dock work as a necessary aspect of the job.

[PilotDAR]

If someone wants to be a hard working dock hand then fill your boots, but I wouldn't advise any new pilot to apply unless it was a flying job that also included dock work as a necessary aspect of the job.

My experience has been different. I found that by accepting an entry level job, and working hard at it, opportunities I would not have imagined opened up to me. The entry level job was being used to assess prospective people (who really had not yet applied) for a different, and more desirable job.

In many organizations, the boss, and senior staff have started or worked up from very little. They've scrubbed filthy aircraft bellies, pumped fuel, and cleaned toilets as needed. They know what it is to work at whatever needs to be done, and they are looking for the same in other employees. This is best tested at the entry level position, which can be "used" to allow the lacking employee to move on, by simply not advancing them.

If a new pilot has so many good prospects that they can pick the piloting job of their choice, excellent on them. But if not, your next best strategy if you want to fly is to be employed where the flying is happening, and to be respected and desirable as a person first, the flying will come in time. Sure, you can accept the better paying IT job downtown, but no matter how well you do it, the Chief Pilot is unlikely to be getting to know you, and considering you as the next person into their cockpits.

People have asked how I came to do some rather interesting test flying. It was not because I set out to be a test pilot, but rather was simply a competent pilot who was already working where maintenance check flying and then test flying was needed to complete work already underway. Eventually, I was asked and accepted, while continuing to build my skills.

Mine is not to only good answer here, just my personal experience, and recommended thinking for others...