Atawapiskat

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trey kule
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by trey kule »

Has anyone on here actually LIVED on a reserve (northern reserve that is - the southern ones are almost "normal")?

Yep, and like the others, I agree with you. The problem is the media plays to the chief's tune and those who know nothing else but what they see in the media are clueless. Like the University types who spend three days on a reserve listening to stories and then return to share their deep wisdom.
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NotDirty!
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by NotDirty! »

Clearwater wrote:Actually "they" do in most cases pay taxes. In almost all cases income is only tax exempt for a registered Indian if the work is carried out on a reserve. Considering the amount of on reserve employment available there is not a whole of of tax free earning going on.
If the "they" referred to earlier was the people of Attawapiskat, then "they" do almost all fall under the exemption you mentioned.

I think that the point that many of us who have been to these reserves is that while the conditions in Attawapiskat are terrible, they are not substantially different from the other northern Ontario reserves. Ontario's Ministry of Transportation operates 29 remote airports on Ontario reserves; I have been to all of them, more than once, and in some cases many times. While some are definitely better than others, even the best remote reserves suffer from problems that are unheard of in the south. I had, in fact, always considered Attawapiskat one of the "better" reserves, as the people I met there seemed friendly, and seemed to be proud of their community. So perhaps this is why YAT makes it into the news more frequently than most of the others - because they are a "good enough" community to recognize that they have a problem.

Just about anything can be a problem on a reserve, and things that might be an easy fix in a more densely populated location, may be nearly impossible when you live in a place where the only way in or out of the community 10 months of the year is by aeroplane. You can't just pop over to the local Home Depot when something breaks in your house, and even inexpensive items to purchase become cost prohibitive to ship by air. In any case, new things, such as vehicles and houses, don't remain "new" for very long on a reserve. Roads are unpaved, which increases wear and tear, vandalism is rampant (think back to your teenage years, and think what kind of trouble you would have got up to if there was literally nothing else to do in your town), and the lack of availability of some of the most basic items leads to some "creative" home-engineered/homemade solutions.

Various "solutions" to these problems have been tried over the years; most have only made the situation worse. Cronyism is a major problem, and the vicious circle of joblessness, poverty, and depression holds back far too many people. There is the huge juxtaposition of traditional ways of life with modern conveniences, that helps to fuel this problem: the reserve does not need to be an economically viable town, because the people can follow their traditional means of hunting, fishing, and living off the land, so do not require a modern source of income; but the desire to follow a modern way of life with commercial goods and store bought foods requires currency. There is not enough employment available to allow the working age adults to have jobs. Because they don't have jobs, many people are forced to live on welfare. A lack of direction, and no end in sight can lead to depression, which only deepens the social problems.

If you were a teenager, faced with this life, you too may suffer from depression, and see suicide as the only way out.

The system itself is part of the problem. I recall the story of a young adult who came to work part time at the airport as an agent for one of the airlines that served the community. He ended up having to quit the job, because he could not afford to live in that way; once he had an income, he was no longer eligible for welfare, and after paying rent, etc. he had less money left over than when he was collecting welfare. In his community, those who were gainfully employed had to pay much more than those who relied on government money. This type of system removes the incentive to get a job, if it is going to require work and end up costing you more than not working at all!

While I certainly don't condone the actions taken, you can start to understand the reasoning behind it. I also recognize that the solution is not to simply throw money at the problem and hope that it goes away; the solution is probably also not going to be found in a 500 word post on an anonymous forum written by an outsider with a vague understanding of the situation, and just enough knowledge to be dangerous.
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Canoehead
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by Canoehead »

I think much of the blame has to lay with the parents, as a casualty of mistakes made in the past by government and band leadership.

I think it's crazy to raise a child in an environment that is toxic (metaphorically and in some cases literally), in the middle of a bog in the year 2016, given everything we know about the issues in these environments. It's their home, and I respect that. But really, I think I would be doing everything in my power to get my children out of there to provide a better future for them, just as many immigrant parents are doing for their children. No, it's not gonna be cheap, but life isn't fair or cheap.

I do feel for the families who are experiencing this hell up there, but I cannot change it for them. Only they can affect their destiny. No amount of free money from the government is gonna do it.

Just my opinion.
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Roar
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by Roar »

[/quote]
In his community, those who were gainfully employed had to pay much more than those who relied on government money. This type of system removes the incentive to get a job, if it is going to require work and end up costing you more than not working at all!

[/quote]


That sounds just like what the NDP are trying to do in Alberta.
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by Longtimer »

anofly wrote:That is dire. Conditions in general, are shocking, many houses are heavily damaged... .. and housing is in short supply. many live in sheds they have built out beside a house.
What damaged the houses? People, neglect or weather?
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Cat Driver
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by Cat Driver »

There may be some improvement if " all " of the employees of Indian Affairs and Northern Development were to be moved out of Ottawa and every employee's office were on a reserve.

The Government employees could choose their reserve based on seniority in the system.

P.S. :

I know the name has been changed over the years but the act remains the same with the same drones living off the backs of the Natives.

Three things broke the backs of natives....and keeps them in utter poverty and despair.

The Missionaries.

The Hudson Bay Company.

The Canadian Government.
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fish4life
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by fish4life »

Houses that are 10 years old are destroyed, I've seen an interview on the news complaining about how bad their house was and you could see a 50 inch flat screen in the background... How about you spend money on improving your house instead of a flat screen tv?

The most garbage filled water I have ever seen has been on reserves, so much for protecting their "pristine land" that they are one with.

I'd love to live the simple life my ancestors did and farm a small plot of land but that doesn't work anymore things change and its not sustainable so why do all the aboriginal communities feel like they don't have to adapt.
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Clearwater
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by Clearwater »

On reserve housing is not quite that simple.

The vast majority of on reserve homes are owned by the band. Even if it were permitted why would a tenant pay to renovate a home that they do not, and in most cases cannot own? In a year you might not be living in it.
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thirdtimecharm
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by thirdtimecharm »

Cat Driver wrote:There may be some improvement if " all " of the employees of Indian Affairs and Northern Development were to be moved out of Ottawa and every employee's office were on a reserve.

The Government employees could choose their reserve based on seniority in the system.

P.S. :

I know the name has been changed over the years but the act remains the same with the same drones living off the backs of the Natives.

Three things broke the backs of natives....and keeps them in utter poverty and despair.

The Missionaries.

The Hudson Bay Company.

The Canadian Government.
This is very, very true.

A lifetime ago, when I was starting my third business in Iqaluit I needed $10,000 to go towards the purchase of a van and was tapped out at the bank. I had written two business plans for the Royal Bank and they seemed to like them.

I went to DIAND (INAC, AANDC, whatever) and they said that they had a pot of money that would help me get this $10K. I just needed to do a business plan.

But, according to DIAND, I wasn't able to write my own business plan and they would hire me a consultant to work on a business plan/proposal. This cost $8,000.00 and the guy was a real goofball. But, I figured because they gave me money to hire specifically him, things would turn out ok.

Once the business plan was complete, they now said that they had to hire another consultant to do due diligence on my business plan. This cost $10,000.00 and the guy was a friend of both the DIAND person and the guy who wrote my business plan.

After two months, and careful consideration the consultant recommended that my application NOT be approved because it would disrupt the local market.

So, DIAND spent $18,000 on consultants to reject my $10,000 application. I know several other people who went through the same process with the same result.

Now, when the average Canadian looks at INAC's budget, they see that $18K multiplied by umpteen other times (just in Nunavut) and conclude that all this money is going to "lazy and ignorant aboriginal people who should just move to the city".

If I were a complete moron (an it later turned out that I was) they would have saved money by giving me the $10K and presumably it would have had a greater impact on the local economy.

Indigenous Affairs is a clever name for a federal department that channels money to southern people and businesses- and strangely enough one of the largest sectors to receive this money is the Aviation industry...
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pdw
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by pdw »

Longtimer wrote:
anofly wrote:That is dire. Conditions in general, are shocking, many houses are heavily damaged... .. and housing is in short supply. many live in sheds they have built out beside a house.
What damaged the houses? People, neglect or weather?
The first time we heard about Attawapiskat 5 years ago was actually a weather (high moisture) disaster above everything else, still an untold story. That October they went from nearly 30C to -6 over a few weeks at 100%RH (wx-history interpolated since no records then at CYAT). By the time the fireplaces etc were lit the indoor air had sat so wet everywhere the mold growth took off like crazy; then shortly also the opposite as dry indoor air (very cold outside) easily spread the loose mold spores. People got sick. No one could help since no one knew / didn't realize (thought it was 100% finances). Our understanding of dehumidifying and humidifiers (regulating humidity) would have been put to the test.
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NunavutPA-12
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by NunavutPA-12 »

pdw wrote:
Longtimer wrote:
anofly wrote:That is dire. Conditions in general, are shocking, many houses are heavily damaged... .. and housing is in short supply. many live in sheds they have built out beside a house.
What damaged the houses? People, neglect or weather?
The first time we heard about Attawapiskat 5 years ago was actually a weather (high moisture) disaster above everything else, still an untold story. That October they went from nearly 30C to -6 over a few weeks at 100%RH (wx-history interpolated since no records then at CYAT). By the time the fireplaces etc were lit the indoor air had sat so wet everywhere the mold growth took off like crazy; then shortly also the opposite as dry indoor air (very cold outside) easily spread the loose mold spores. People got sick. No one could help since no one knew / didn't realize (thought it was 100% finances). Our understanding of dehumidifying and humidifiers (regulating humidity) would have been put to the test.
At least, that's what the media said ...... I wouldn't put much stock in that explanation.

The houses aren't heated with "fireplaces". Most have oil-fired furnaces and a few have wood stoves.

Are you referring to the flood in the spring of 2014? I've never heard it referred to as a "high moisture disaster", but I guess you could call it that! :roll:

The mold after the flood could have been cured with a thorough cleaning, but who wants to do that!
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Meatservo
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by Meatservo »

You know, a lot of people read things in the news and have a comment to make about the Indians, about how they would do better for themselves to get off their butts and get jobs, do their own home improvements, get educations, move out of their crappy little towns so they can do better for themselves in cities, or whatever. Or at least, become hewers of wood and haulers of water and go back to the land they always seem to be pining for even though they are living right in the middle of it. I know I have said things like that, not just about aboriginal people but generally about anyone who lives in a squalid, crappy little town somewhere with no amenities, nothing to do, and no future except more of the same boring shit day after day.

But just recently, I started hating my job. Not like I actually hate doing it, but I don't really have anyone to look up to particularly, all the interesting stuff seems to be someone else's business and not mine, and I don't feel like I have much of a future. I guess I could look for a new job, but I like my house, and my friends, my wife has a good job, and I don't think I'm really going to be able to get a better situation elsewhere without having to tolerate actually doing WORSE for a while. Which I feel I'm too old, crabby and disillusioned to be able to withstand. So I just kind of come in, do my thing, and leave. I'm pretty good at it, and that gives me some satisfaction sometimes, but mostly I'm just phoning it in.

Anyway, I think many underachievers like myself feel the same way once in a while, but the reason this has to do with the Natives is this: I too have a few home improvements to make. I too, could be spending my spare time getting another degree, or looking for a more interesting job where they appreciate me more. I, too, could get off my ass and get some fresh air, or shovel the driveway, get a haircut, do the laundry, or buy flowers for my wife. The furnace needs cleaning and I was supposed to paint the window-frames last fall and just never did. Because I get home from work and get a beer and sit there thinking about the days' perceived injustices and then go to bed. I could do all kinds of great stuff, but the mood I'm in these days, it just seems less soul-crushing to just say "meh", grab a beer and sit there letting the universe do entropy and stuff without my participation.

Now, WTF does this have to do with Atawapiskat.... well, I guess, if I, with all my first-world problems, can end up feeling this way sometimes, with my admittedly well-paying, professional job, pretty wife, nice house and funny, smart friends, imagine how much harder it must be to summon the will do do anything about yourself when you live in a crappy, mouldy house, maybe they pay you to plough the runway once in a while or whatever, but generally you have no job, and certainly not one that makes you feel any good about yourself, you never got an education, and if you tried to get one, your friends would have made fun of you anyway, because that's what people are like- mean and small-minded- and you would have had to leave home (and stay where? and eat what?) in order to get that education, food is expensive and you're slowly dying of malnutrition because all you eat is chips, because no-one taught you to cook even if you could afford better food. Yours and your parents' and your grandparents' spiritual life, or sense of place in the universe, or cultural heritage, or language, has been systematically destroyed by generation after generation of people from away who come to your village and tell you they're here to help, and then wind up just stealing and raping your kids, taking things from you, making fun of you, replacing your traditions with ones that are illogical or untenable in the context of your knowledge of the world, and basically telling you everything you've been doing is wrong. You think they aren't aware of what we really think of them? Do you think it doesn't affect an entire group of people to know they are looked down upon? You think someone like this is gonna spring out of bed one day, and suddenly clean the house, sell it, move away to the city, buy decent clothes and get a job, use the money to pay for an education, get a better job and then have a family, and raise them in a nice place and forget all about the little town he came from? Yeah, maybe one or two people in a hundred have the emotional wherewithal to pull off a move like that: I'm not sure I do. What we're talking about here is generation after generation of people suffering from chronic depression. You might think, next time you feel a little sorry for yourself, what it must be like to have felt like that 24 hours a day for your whole life since you were a little kid.

I don't propose a solution, but I am starting to understand the problem. Sorry for being sanctimonious or self- righteous. I don't mean to be. Next time a native kid steals something from my car, or they barricade the road, or whatever, I'll be spitting nails along with every other whitey who gets inconvenienced because they live side-by-side in this country with a group of other people who are angry, disillusioned, and depressed. I'm probably part of the problem, and I recognize that, but I'm just too placid and self-absorbed to get off my ass and do anything about it.
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crazyaviator
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by crazyaviator »

I have not read as honest and as humble a post here in avcanada for a LONG LONG time! BRAVO Meatservo :D
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pdw
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by pdw »

+1
NunavutPA-12 wrote:Are you referring to the flood in the spring of 2014?
No no, referring there to heavy humidity off the Bay in 2011 for 3 weeks. Heat not required until it got cold but in the meantime was too wet, ie rotten bathrooms etc. (Similar to the black mold outbreak in Lansdowne House 5 years before that ... 2005/2006).
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by NunavutPA-12 »

pdw wrote:+1
NunavutPA-12 wrote:Are you referring to the flood in the spring of 2014?
No no, referring there to heavy humidity off the Bay in 2011 for 3 weeks. Heat not required until it got cold but in the meantime was too wet, ie rotten bathrooms etc. (Similar to the black mold outbreak in Lansdowne House 5 years before that ... 2005/2006).
Roger that.

So don't you think it would be reasonable for the band (who are the owners of those houses after all) to take just a little of the 400 million or so that they get annually from the feds and the mining companies and maybe repair or replace those houses. I understand that the "tenants" would not be anxious to do the clean-up work because they are at the mercy of the band, but for the amount of money the band gets there's no excuse for anyone to be living in those conditions. Geeze, with only 1,800 people everyone should be living in brand new houses. Come to think of it, I guess at one time they were living in brand new houses!

Of course, the rulers of that fiefdom could, if they chose, sell the houses off to the occupants for a dollar and then they could all be home owners and maybe would at least have the pride of ownership. Of course, the band councillors would get first pick of the best houses. After all, they are the elite.

However, those elite would never agree to sell the houses or give them away because they would then give up the primary means of exercising total control over the little people, which was likely their whole purpose in getting elected.
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Clearwater
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by Clearwater »

Where on earth did you come up with $400 million for a reserve with 1800 people?
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Clearwater
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by Clearwater »

The most recent numbers are from 2012-2013.

The band received total funding for all programs including health and education of $34.9 million. If your population number of 1800 is correct that is $19,994.44 per person.

Though you might not realize it, you likely get more than that from Federal and Provincial governments in the form of health care, education, policing etc.
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DanWEC
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by DanWEC »

I'm hesitant to enter the fray here so I won't say much, but I've lived around reserves and native towns in multiple provinces. It's not a native problem per se, it's a textbook geographical poverty problem with different lighting.

Meat, been really enjoying your posts lately. I think less work and more beer is in order for our collective benefit!
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Last edited by DanWEC on Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clearwater
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by Clearwater »

The "elite" leaders were paid as follows for the year ending August 2015:

Chief $80K per year
Councilors Lowest $19K Highest $69K
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NunavutPA-12
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Re: Atawapiskat

Post by NunavutPA-12 »

Clearwater wrote:The most recent numbers are from 2012-2013.

The band received total funding for all programs including health and education of $34.9 million. If your population number of 1800 is correct that is $19,994.44 per person.

Though you might not realize it, you likely get more than that from Federal and Provincial governments in the form of health care, education, policing etc.
Except that they also got 300 million from local mines in 2013. Where did that money go?

But yes, I'm in error: scratch the word "annually" from my post. My apologies for that.

At any rate, per capita, they have received enough over the last few years to build a brand new house for each of the 500 families on the reserve.
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