WestJet flights to London prompting a wave of complaints

[fish4life]

What's the issue?

[moe]

...

WB Pilot MOA

...

[True North]

Expecting to buy clapped out desert queens and have a smooth startup is clearly unrealistic.

They didn't buy "desert queens" they bought freshly overhauled airplanes from Boeing. If they came out of that overhaul in questionable condition then it certainly is on Boeing, which I guess is why Boeing is picking up a large part of the tab created by this debacle.

[Radcap55]

Whats the problem with the MOA?

[complexintentions]

If they came out of that overhaul in questionable condition then it certainly is on Boeing, which I guess is why Boeing is picking up a large part of the tab created by this debacle.

This is an unsubstantiated rumour. There's no way anyone outside of higher management at either company knows the terms of a deal like this.

Why is so hard for WS and their supporters to admit they may have underestimated the difficulty in starting a new operation? Instead of taking the defensive tone that essentially, they really wanted EK's old junk and not Boeing's, but Boeing pressured them, sorry "shoehorned" them into the deal and so WestJet is a victim, boo hoo?

Kind of a loserish face-saving tactic. Sorry, but the buck stops with WS. If they didn't do their due diligence, that's on them - they're the ones selling tickets, not Boeing or Airbus.

For the pax sake, glad to hear OTP is improving. But the assertion that the commercial viability has been proven is amusing. I can't see a service that's barely started running and paying out big compensation being terribly lucrative. Longterm perhaps, but a bit of whistling past the graveyard at this point.

[altiplano]

They didn't buy "desert queens" they bought freshly overhauled airplanes from Boeing. If they came out of that overhaul in questionable condition then it certainly is on Boeing, which I guess is why Boeing is picking up a large part of the tab created by this debacle.

LOL just like that refurb PC with windows 95 and a pentium processor you bought last year - guess it was on Future Shop when it turned out to suck @$$ - if you weren't such an apologist I'd say you were naive.

Used airplanes are used airplanes for a reason - I know AC wouldn't touch those airplanes and they are an established 767 operator.

[True North]

This is an unsubstantiated rumour. There's no way anyone outside of higher management at either company knows the terms of a deal like this.

No, it's a statement of fact known by many well below "higher management". You can believe it or not, doesn't matter to me.

[True North]

They didn't buy "desert queens" they bought freshly overhauled airplanes from Boeing. If they came out of that overhaul in questionable condition then it certainly is on Boeing, which I guess is why Boeing is picking up a large part of the tab created by this debacle.

LOL just like that refurb PC with windows 95 and a pentium processor you bought last year - guess it was on Future Shop when it turned out to suck @$$ - if you weren't such an apologist I'd say you were naive.

Used airplanes are used airplanes for a reason - I know AC wouldn't touch those airplanes and they are an established 767 operator.

You really should avoid posting when you've been drinking.

[Realitychex]

This is an unsubstantiated rumour. There's no way anyone outside of higher management at either company knows the terms of a deal like this.

No, it's a statement of fact known by many well below "higher management". You can believe it or not, doesn't matter to me.

Tell us about the "new to the fleet" AC 767 in heavy maintenance with corroded fuel tanks.

Last I heard, it was supposed to be in service right about now but won't even see a test flight for a long, long time.

[altiplano]

@ True North - it might hurt but it's true regardless of how much I'm drinking.

[JBI]

They didn't buy "desert queens" they bought freshly overhauled airplanes from Boeing. If they came out of that overhaul in questionable condition then it certainly is on Boeing, which I guess is why Boeing is picking up a large part of the tab created by this debacle.

LOL just like that refurb PC with windows 95 and a pentium processor you bought last year - guess it was on Future Shop when it turned out to suck @$$ - if you weren't such an apologist I'd say you were naive.

Used airplanes are used airplanes for a reason - I know AC wouldn't touch those airplanes and they are an established 767 operator.

There's definitely an argument that WJ should have considered a different type of aircraft, but your analogy isn't accurate. It's not like WJ needed the newest and fanciest long haul equipment, it just needed something reliable to take its first steps in to the long haul market.

In your above example, it is more like a consumer going to HP and saying they don't need the mega fast gaming computer with all the bells and whistles, but they just want something reliable that will let them surf the net to read altiplano's latest pontifications, check Facebook and do some word processing. HP assured the consumer that refurbished computers that are a few years old with a warranty would work well to indeed have their mind blown by altiplano's groundbreaking conclusions, check Facebook and do some word-processing. Is it on the consumer or HP if things don't work out? From a legal contracts perspective, HP would be on the hook as it made representations to the consumer as to the suitability of purpose.

[LittleNelly]

The problem isn't that the 767s they got turned out bad. It was that WestJet pushed the utilization too high. They thought they could have their cake and eat it too by running high utilization with older aircraft that need more maintenance, more often. They had no excuse not to know that they would not be able to maintain the schedule they planned. You can bet that AC, United, BA, etc.. dont push their 767 fleets as hard as their 787s.

Now that their utilization has dropped with the addition of the chartered one, its getting back to normal. Just poor planning, not bad planes.

[JTrain]

The problem isn't that the 767s they got turned out bad. It was that WestJet pushed the utilization too high. They thought they could have their cake and eat it too by running high utilization with older aircraft that need more maintenance, more often. They had no excuse not to know that they would not be able to maintain the schedule they planned. You can bet that AC, United, BA, etc.. dont push their 767 fleets as hard as their 787s.

Now that their utilization has dropped with the addition of the chartered one, its getting back to normal. Just poor planning, not bad planes.

Not poor planning or overutilization.

WS owns four B767s, and the schedule is based around having three doing the LGW flights so there is always a spare aircraft somewhere in the system. That being said, the range of the 767 flying is vast -from London to Vancouver- so knowing that the spare aircraft or reserve crews can't always be in the right place at the right time they went through the added expense of contracting with various ACMI carriers such as Omni or EuroAtlantic to have supplemental lift immediately available.

If anything, the initial hiccups in the 767 operation were due to bad luck and some other maintenance factors beyond WS' control. They are getting better on a daily basis - for the last month or so they are turning into a solid, reliable operation. It will only continue to trend in the right direction.

[JTrain]

Not just WS that this stuff happens to.

This week AC is the one getting the bad press.

----------------

Air Canada passengers stranded in U.K.

Canadian Press


TORONTO - Air Canada is taking heat on social media from passengers spending two unexpected days in Manchester, England.

The flight to Toronto was scheduled to leave on Friday, but Air Canada says the 197 passengers will have to wait until Sunday.

One person tweeted "horrendous experience. Stuck in Manchester for 2 days and no one has been in contact to tell us what's going on."

And another tweet to Air Canada said "A second night in Manchester ... due to more flight delays. AirCanada this is not how to treat your passengers."

An Air Canada spokeswoman called it an "unfortunate situation" caused by mechanical problems and crew duty restrictions.

Isabelle Arthur said on Saturday in an email that the airline will contact the passengers directly regarding compensation for having their travel plans disrupted.

"We have a team working around the clock behind the scene to ensure we can get them to their final destination as soon as it is safe to so do," she said.

[JTrain]

Maintenance issues happen to everyone. Two weeks ago WS was the internet villain, today it was AC, and next week it will probably be Transat's turn.

[pianokeys]

Maintenance issues happen to everyone. Two weeks ago WS was the internet villain, today it was AC, and next week it will probably be Transat's turn.

I like how this article made the front page of CBCs website. Then come the comments on FB. Everyone hates AC. WS is the best. Blah blah blah. The flying public makes me lose faith in humanity. Get over it and go fly Lion Air in Indonesia. Losers.

[Old fella]

Maintenance issues happen to everyone. Two weeks ago WS was the internet villain, today it was AC, and next week it will probably be Transat's turn.

To right... just gets the WJ bashers and AC haters going

[Transonic]

What's the issue?

Gregg answered that question today in the Q2 call.

Ben Cherniavsky

And are you guys discussing like what would be any potential objection that pilots or anyone else are needing other WestJetters would have to expanding initiative at this point?

Gregg Saretsky

That’s a great question, we’re not sure why there would be objections, but I will tell you that there is a view among the pilots that they deals that they struck for the first four aircraft would not be reflective of what they would expect would be the deal for something that is anything other than an experiment.

So we’re in this waltz now around what might that look like, if it’s no longer an experiment than it has to continue to provide economics that make it in our best interest to expand that fleet. So if we can’t come the terms on what those economic need to look like than there will be no expansion of that fleet, it’s simple at that. And I’m hoping that we’ll get to an engagements that results in a good answer for all WestJet including our pilots.

Transcript at
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3991779 ... art=single

[fish4life]

So what I gather from that is the pilots made an agreement with lower pay during the roll out and now that they want to expand the fleet the pilots want more pay and Greg is saying they won't buy more airplanes if the pilots get paid more?

[watermeth]

it works better backwards.

if it’s no longer an experiment than it has to continue to provide economics that make it in our best interest to expand that fleet.

And I’m hoping that we’ll get to an engagements that results in a good answer for all WestJet including our pilots.

So if we can’t come the terms on what those economic need to look like than there will be no expansion of that fleet, it’s simple at that.

bigger aircraft, same pay ; one would assume.