F/A-18E vs F-35: Why is the government still debating?

[Spokes]

Why all the focus particularly on the Super Hornet? I realize if we got those, they would be new airframes, but isn't this model almost as old now as the Hornets were when we first started talking about replacing them?

[schnitzel2k3]

Besides the F-35, what options would Canada invite to host a fifth-gen fighter competition?...

So to reiterate, what are the other reasonable options?

Why 5th generation? You're suggesting it is the only option, which further implies any country arming themselves HAS to do so with the F35 - which is false.

Rockie, trust me when I write that I don't care if it's fifth gen or not, I really don't. I'm not flying them. I am merely the lucky recipient of the security they provide me as a Canadian citizen.

But it seems the military powers across the border keep insisting that the F-35 is the only option to remain current on the battlefied, as have a few keen AvCanada posters, for the next 3 decades. I think I listed the Dassault Rafael (mistakingly wrote Mirage out of haste), Eurofighter, and Grippen as worthy considerations for a competition if we are talking either SH or F-35. I think the Russians build some pretty capable machines, but again, that's from an outsider perspective, and politically I don't see Canada owning any Sukhoi or MiGs.

I'd personally like to see some variation from the Lockheed, Boeing or General Dynamics familes from south of the border, perhaps a Eurofighter in the stables at Cold Lake or Baggotville. I'm not sure how the systems compare or integrate with U.S technology when on the battlefield, as far as fighting alongside them should the time come again, but I imagine, since most European made fighters safely fly in Red and Maple flag, that things work just fine.

Seems politically Europe is looking to refresh its trade partnerships with Canada, especially after this Brexit crap. Might be time to step up and trade some cheap Alberta crude for Eurofighters...

S.

[BingoFuel]

The SH flies nicely without weapons hanging off the wings, ie; at the Abbotsford airshow, but hang stores underneath and it quickly becomes a dog.

Apparently Boeing's gonna send a Super Hornet to the Abbotsford show this year...with a Boeing test pilot to fly each day. No word on an F-35 appearance as of yet, but it'd go a long way if Canadians got to see the F-35 Flying Pig in the flesh.

[Rockie]

The SH flies nicely without weapons hanging off the wings, ie; at the Abbotsford airshow, but hang stores underneath and it quickly becomes a dog.

Apparently Boeing's gonna send a Super Hornet to the Abbotsford show this year...with a Boeing test pilot to fly each day. No word on an F-35 appearance as of yet, but it'd go a long way if Canadians got to see the F-35 Flying Pig in the flesh.

Wouldn't that make an excellent demonstration if the F35 and SH did a formation takeoff together at Abbotsford and they each had an engine failure...

[AuxBatOn]

The SH flies nicely without weapons hanging off the wings, ie; at the Abbotsford airshow, but hang stores underneath and it quickly becomes a dog.

Apparently Boeing's gonna send a Super Hornet to the Abbotsford show this year...with a Boeing test pilot to fly each day. No word on an F-35 appearance as of yet, but it'd go a long way if Canadians got to see the F-35 Flying Pig in the flesh.

I see F-35s (B and C models) do flight testing pretty much everyday. It tells me very little about it's capabilities...

And airshow demo doesn't show much in terms of capabilities...

[Mach1]

and it was a 'Harper Government' my way or the highway deal (which is no different than the Libs buying SHs now). A lot of X's from an educated and interested civilian perspective.
S.

You do realize it was the Liberals under the leadership of Jean Chretien that originally signed us into the whole JSF program? Stop blaming Harper as though he were the sole person responsible for this. Every politician since 1997 has had their hands in this program.

[schnitzel2k3]

J.C signed us into a program to take part in the development of a new fighter, basically securing jobs and contracts, but did not commit us to a purchase, just a participation.

I'm not saying the Liberals are infallible, every side of government messes up, especially with long term equipment upgradability contracts. What I'm saying is the Harper government was ready to sign the dotted line for X number of airframes with a program, which at the time and still to this day, is running into headaches and falling short of milestones. It looked like a backdoor deal, and the forces were going to lose with a junk deal. I haven't seen much press on it recently (within the last 6 months), not sure if that's due to progress in the program or just general lack of interest.

Now all that is not to say the JSF, F35 or whatever the hell you want to call it isn't a great aircraft, but is it really right for us? I thought the SH was perhaps the better route (not because the Libs suggested it), I thought it made sense due to the experience our forces have with the legacy Hornet's, and that experience would translate into the new airframe and allow them to continue doing what they were doing. It seems even that has its shortfalls as it's design is getting on in age, and doesn't offer much more than the original F18, as was pointed out by I think Aux and Rockie.

I'm just happy listening to the guys who fly this stuff debate on what they'd like to see Canada spend their billions on for fighters, and help educate an interested forum member on their opinion. I think some fellas get a little bit uppity reading between the lines, but thats ok. Makes for interesting reading.

S.

[Moose47]

G'day

I have been following this thread since its inception. I have been tempted to chime in but chose not to until now.

The reality of it all is, that no matter what aircraft we end up getting, the numbers will be grossly insufficient to provide a credible and sustainable defence of this country.

Cheers...Chris

[Mach1]

I'm not a Harper fan... but the noise has reached the point that I can't stand it any longer. No Prime Minister is a king... although reading many of the comments sections on news websites, it would seem a lot of Liberal supporters seem to think Jr. was elected King... and that bothers me equally. It's like hearing a song too many times and then you hate it... so I'm hoping people will use the proper Conservative/Liberal labels.

I don't care which plane we wind up with, but we do need something... and for those from who think that we don't need one and that the American's will defend us... try thinking about that from the US tax payer's point of view. Why? Why would I pay to defend another country that's too lazy to defend itself. Better to just take you over if I have to do that and use the resources to pay for that defence.

The Liberals ran on having an open competition. They should have one. At least that way, no one gets to single source the bid. If the people who have a favourite plane lose the competition... they can grumble about it but they can't say it wasn't an open competition.

Moose47, you are absolutely correct. We won't have enough to defend our country... but hopefully we can maintain our status in NORAD and NATO and in helping our allies when they need it, they will help us if our time of need comes.

[oldncold]

Recently watched cnn video of marines F35b. Gun test. 55rounds a second (3300 rounds a minute. Impressed me. The air force version houses the gun internally. The. F35b on a pod due to no room because of vtol. Either way. Let get new fighters enough talk

[frosti]

Recently watched cnn video of marines F35b. Gun test. 55rounds a second (3300 rounds a minute. Impressed me. The air force version houses the gun internally. The. F35b on a pod due to no room because of vtol. Either way. Let get new fighters enough talk

This acquisition has nothing to do with capability, industrial offsets, military strength or money. It's all about politics and saving face.

[BingoFuel]

Looks as though Lockheed got a bit territorial with the Super Hornet Corporate Demo at the show...

http://www.abbotsfordairshow.com/f-35-t ... l-airshow/

[Rockie]

"Quantum leap in air dominance capability with enhanced lethality and survivability in hostile, anti-access airspace environments".

Aside from the fact a single piece of metal through its one and only engine will turn this airplane into junk....could a plain english sentence not have sufficed instead of this gobble-de-gook?

"Anti-access airspace environment". Is that what the brains are calling it now?

[tailgunner]

They can call it contested airspace, or whatever, the bottom line is that the F35 gives you a chance of surviving whereas the F18 Super Hornet does not.

[Rockie]

They can call it contested airspace, or whatever, the bottom line is that the F35 gives you a chance of surviving whereas the F18 Super Hornet does not.

Or so Lockheed's glossy brochure says anyway. You ever watch a car commercial?

[AuxBatOn]

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-too-stealthy-2016-8

[teacher]

I wonder why the Fiberal government of Junior is back tracking on an open competition? Fly them off against each other and see who wins! Could it be that they are afraid that the F35 will win? They could also do what the Cretin Fiberals did with the Sea King replacement and review the data and instead of choosing the winner add a "lowest cost" line in the competition and just go with the cheapest (on paper) option.

[trampbike]

Aside from the fact a single piece of metal through its one and only engine will turn this airplane into junk.

How big a piece of metal? How likely is it going to happen?

[Rockie]

Aside from the fact a single piece of metal through its one and only engine will turn this airplane into junk.

How big a piece of metal? How likely is it going to happen?

How big? An AOA probe trashed one of mine so a 20mm round will probably do it. How likely? How likely is it people will be shooting at it? How likely is it the jet will ingest debris from one of its kill? How likely is it the jet will ingest a large bird. All good questions.

Nobody was shooting and me and yet a piece of metal still destroyed one of my engines. Good thing I had two of them since you mentioned survivability.

[trampbike]

Nobody was shooting and me and yet a piece of metal still destroyed one of my engines.

Good thing the F-35 isn't equipped with one of your engines.

[Rockie]

Nobody was shooting and me and yet a piece of metal still destroyed one of my engines.

Good thing the F-35 isn't equipped with one of your engines.

Seriously? Is the F-35's made of Kryptonite or something, the same stuff Captain America's shield is forged from perhaps and thus impervious to damage?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hmmmm

Fly the F35A or the F18E

There is a great saying about how you never want to fly the "A" model of any airplane......

Seriously though F35 FOC is now pushed back to 2021, for an aircraft built against a 1998 SOR.

Personally I think advancements in unmanned technology will make this aircraft essentially obsolete before the last one is built.

I see a lot of similarities to Naval Warfare in the early 1920's. The established orthodoxy was that Naval power projection should be built around a force of Battleships. Proponents of aircraft carriers as the future of Naval Warfare were considered as delusional eccentrics, yet 15 years later Battleships were effectively irrelevant.

Substitute 5th gen manned fighters with Battleship and Drones for aircraft carriers and I think you have the exact same dynamic.

There are huge institutional desire and vested interests in maintaining the status quo but the realities of disruptive technology are not going to go away.

My 2 cents. Buy the F 18 because it is proven, available quickly and has cost certainty, but understand it is an interim capability and start thinking now about how we want to integrate unmanned technologies into future air effects

[AuxBatOn]

Yeah that F-18A was a real big mistake...

The F-35A is IOC and brings more capabilities now than the SH will ever have...

[Big Pistons Forever]

Yeah that F-18A was a real big mistake...

The F-35A is IOC and brings more capabilities now than the SH will ever have...

10 years after the first flight of the F 35A the USAF can only field 14 airplanes at IOC. These airplanes have a 3 G maneuvering limit, a 138 pound minimum pilot weight, no laser designator for the CAS mission, the reliability of the new software load required for the IOC designation has been "improved" so that it on average only crashes every 15 hours, and an engine that can only deliver 1/3 of the contracted TBO. In addition the integrated logistic system that supports the aircraft was described as a unacceptably deficient in almost all areas by the IG's office.

I think I this pie is a long way from fully baked....

[Gannet167]

http://ipolitics.ca/2016/08/06/outgoing ... -military/

“If I were king for a day, rather than providing more oversight and controls over National Defence, I’d simply give us clear direction as to the outcomes we’re looking for, with predictable and sustained funding, and then I’d get out of the way and watch,” Thibault said.

“And you would be amazed.”