Emirates Flight EK521 777 Crash Landing

[GRK2]

So...two apparently very experienced pilots forget to follow through and manually push (regardless of the A/T mode) throttles on an airplane forward during a go around? I have to say that it's supposed to be a basic maneuver associated with any such actions. To be so mode dependent is contrary to what I've been taught. What I ask from my colleagues in ANY seat is to stay "tactile" with the controls. (hands on at at least critical moments, such as this one) It must be an automatic response...push the throttles up and raise the nose...it's a GO AROUND for frik sakes. Have we become so stupid as to forget that? Basic flying skill right? Yes they bounced, and it's a rare occurrence, and by all indications the go around was the right action to take after the bounce, but to not physically add thrust? Kinda boggles the mind.

[pelmet]

If you hit TOGA and the thrust levers don't respond... Move them yourself!

All the information right now is just speculation of course. It could be a much different cause. But concerning the theory that is being discussed, a line of thought has been that a pilot might push the TOGA switches when the aircraft was on the ground and therefore inhibited(and the pilot having forgotten about that restriction) and then quickly moving his throttle hand to the control column to have both hands on it for the go-around.

[Meatservo]

If you hit TOGA and the thrust levers don't respond... Move them yourself!

All the information right now is just speculation of course. It could be a much different cause. But concerning the theory that is being discussed, a line of thought has been that a pilot might push the TOGA switches when the aircraft was on the ground and therefore inhibited(and the pilot having forgotten about that restriction) and then quickly moving his throttle hand to the control column to have both hands on it for the go-around.

Bearing in mind of course that there are two pairs of hands there. You could always say "max thrust" or something, and the other pilot who is there with you might reasonably be expected to be participating...

[pelmet]

If you hit TOGA and the thrust levers don't respond... Move them yourself!

All the information right now is just speculation of course. It could be a much different cause. But concerning the theory that is being discussed, a line of thought has been that a pilot might push the TOGA switches when the aircraft was on the ground and therefore inhibited(and the pilot having forgotten about that restriction) and then quickly moving his throttle hand to the control column to have both hands on it for the go-around.

Bearing in mind of course that there are two pairs of hands there. You could always say "max thrust" or something, and the other pilot who is there with you might reasonably be expected to be participating...

That is part of the go-around procedure. The PNF says "go-around thrust set" due to its extreme importance.

[Eric Janson]

Bearing in mind of course that there are two pairs of hands there. You could always say "max thrust" or something, and the other pilot who is there with you might reasonably be expected to be participating...

Thrust levers are handled by the PF.

When I flew Boeing it was always "Manual Flight - Manual Thrust". In this situation you always pushed the Thrust Levers forward in the event of a go-around. The PNF would fine tune the Thrust after being given the "set thrust" command.

The only time we ever used Auto Thrust for landing was on a Cat 2/3 approach.

I don't fly Boeing anymore but it appears that not everyone operates as listed above.

From personal observation I see a lot of Pilots who are afraid to turn any automation off.

[Oxi]

So they seemed to have positive rate and raised the gear? Only to find out they didn't

[Meatservo]

Thrust levers are handled by the PF.

Yes of course. My point being that there was someone else there who might reasonably have been expected to understand the power had not been set. If the manoeuvre being flown required full power, and neither pilot nor the computer figured out that the great big levers right in the middle of everything hadn't moved, then in reality I guess nobody was really the PF, were they? I guess even if it's not S.O.P. I might forgive the PNF for actually acting to prevent our imminent doom, even if he is third in command after the PF and the computer.

You'll forgive my ignorance, I hope: I really have no business commenting on the affairs of the pros in the big ships. Even if I do occasionally have the misfortune of finding myself trapped in the back of one.

[pelmet]

Bearing in mind of course that there are two pairs of hands there. You could always say "max thrust" or something, and the other pilot who is there with you might reasonably be expected to be participating...

Thrust levers are handled by the PF.

When I flew Boeing it was always "Manual Flight - Manual Thrust". In this situation you always pushed the Thrust Levers forward in the event of a go-around. The PNF would fine tune the Thrust after being given the "set thrust" command.

The only time we ever used Auto Thrust for landing was on a Cat 2/3 approach.

I don't fly Boeing anymore but it appears that not everyone operates as listed above.

From personal observation I see a lot of Pilots who are afraid to turn any automation off.

Like an Airbus, the 777 is always flown with autothrust operating unless it is not working which of course would be almost never.

Thanks Eric Jansen for the reply below. I will correct my statement to...Many operators of Airbus and 777 aircraft require that their crews operate with the autothrottle on throughout the approach.

[righthandman]

Do we know... Was this a low energy rejected landing or was it a go-around after a bounced landing? A low energy rejected landing can easily result in a bounce but you don't do a thing other than climb until you reach Vref+adjustment. Regardless... If you hit TOGA and the thrust levers don't respond... Move them yourself!

Not just that but knowing the weather is warm etc., what's the panic in raising the gear? At least the plane would have settled onto extended gear. I am not saying what would still result would be pretty, but on top of everything you say about the automation and what they should have done with the thrust, I think I would have held off raising the gear for a little longer.

If nothing else I would try what I said on a Sim (delaying raising the gear)...and see what results. Maybe the training would need to be tweaked a bit.

[Eric Janson]

Like an Airbus, the 777 is always flown with autothrust operating unless it is not working which of course would be almost never.

I don't agree - there are still operators who allow/encourage manual flying with autothrust off.

There is nothing in the SOP at my company that prevents me from using manual thrust on the airbus.

There are also situations where autothrust will make things worse due to the slower rate of response. The FCTM for both Boeing and airbus is very clear about turning automation off if it is not performing adequately.

[Eric Janson]

Interim report released:-

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication ... A6-EMW.pdf

[PostmasterGeneral]

Only skimmed over the report while on the shitter, but it looks like they initiated a go-around after touchdown (rejected landing) and the autothrust didn't advance the levers, by the time the crew did so manually they were ref -20 with less flaps now and the gear halfway up when they stalled it into the runway.

I've never flown a plane with auto throttle before but just seems weird to me to not "have your hand there" during the landing phase. After all, you do need to be on them to hit the TOGA button? If they don't move as commanded, just shove them forward?

[Commonwealth]

Those 90 day totals seem quite high. Standard ops for ME carriers I imagine.
CW

[Eric Janson]

I've never flown a plane with auto throttle before but just seems weird to me to not "have your hand there" during the landing phase. After all, you do need to be on them to hit the TOGA button? If they don't move as commanded, just shove them forward?

That's the correct procedure - SOP at every company I've worked at.

On the airbus you have to push the thrust levers all the way forward to get go-around thrust - very intuitive with no buttons to push.

[Inverted2]

So it took them a month to release this and meanwhile in Canada it's been 18 months since the YHZ crash and nothing....

[AuxBatOn]

Except there is nothing relating to the cause. It merely states the facts, just like the TSB did for the Halifax accident 6 months after the fact (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inves ... 5h0002.asp).

A full report is much more in-depth and requires a lot of research , test and hypothesis testing. 2 years is not unreasonable. If there are safety issues uncovered by the accident investigation, the TSB will let people know through appropriate channels. You thirst for gossip will be satisfied when the report is finalized and released.

[bobcaygeon]

Except YHZ is just over one page long (vs 21) with little info and a few pics that came out on flickr in the first week and has a picture of the investigator. This report took just over a month.

Unless this accident is ENTIRELY caused by AC's procedures which no other airline uses (which I highly doubt) then an interim report has value to every other operator especially in this country as we daily perform non-precision approaches in winter weather with yet another winter season approaching.

Any Risk Assessment from a SMS would see the value in an interim report.

The BS that goes on after the actual investigation is complete to ensure the report is politically correct to all involved and then translated to French provides little value from a safety point of view.

I never though I'd be congratulating the UAE on their willingness to share knowledge freely but great job!!

I'm personally sick of living in North Korea when it comes to the TSB mandate in Canada. This is yet another repeat performance.

[AuxBatOn]

Feel free to move to UAE and North Korea.

[Rookie50]

So it took them a month to release this and meanwhile in Canada it's been 18 months since the YHZ crash and nothing....

Crash? You mean "hard landing, correct"?

[Gannet167]

Is t is not basic airmanship in a takeoff or go-around to verify with a healthy level of skepticism:
1. Good engine?
2. Good climb?

Flying fully automated multi-engine as well as basic stick and rudder aerobatic planes: at the end of the day they all fly just like an airplane. Performance = attitude + power, and all that.