Winter Bid released today.

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rxl
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by rxl »

PROC_HDG wrote:
AvExpress wrote:
What happens at the next bid? Or the next...
Jazz, like the other regionals are shifting away from career destinations. They don't want guys making 100k plus. They don't want you here for more than 5-10 yrs. Sky, GGN, WJE top pay scales are indicative of that. Future contracts will further erode, and continual shake ups designed to get senior guys/gals to move along will invariably happen. ACPA should take note IMO. Erosion and race to the bottom is very contagious in this industry thanks to a lack of pilot unity. AC execs I'm sure are planning their next move to capitalize on the value of such tactics.
This is why having some unity is so important, and inflammatory comments like "scab" and "blame GGN/SR" don't get anybody anywhere. We are all in this together, and I can assure you that the majority of guys/gals at SR want to see a change just as much as our colleagues at JZA. We are in probably the best market for labour in the last 20 years right now, and are watching our counterparts in the US see big wage increases and work rules improvements. AC is as profitable as it has ever been. Now is the time to stop blaming each other.

PROC_HDG
THEN SIGN THE DAMN UNION CARD
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rxl
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by rxl »

rudder wrote:Want to know what SKY/GGN/Porter pilots can do to help the cause?

Sign the ALPA card that is being put in front of you. If you aren't part of the solution then you are just part of the problem.
I would add the Westjet/Ecore group to that list.
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A V I A T O
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by A V I A T O »

why not CMA too while were at it.

such a post makes me paranoid of internet surveillance. All if you who said "union" and "(company)" in the same sentence should be too.

"Whoops. I said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud."
-Krusty the Clown
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rxl
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by rxl »

A V I A T O wrote:why not CMA too while were at it.

such a post makes me paranoid of internet surveillance. All if you who said "union" and "(company)" in the same sentence should be too.

"Whoops. I said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud."
-Krusty the Clown
EVAS
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Tanker299
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by Tanker299 »

Is ALPA the answer? Wasaya and the Bear are in and they have seriously weak CBAs. Up front bonds at an ALPA represented airline.... How does this make it better. At the end of the day it's still up to the pilot group. Jazz pilots are making GGN Sky Porter and dub jay E places to look at. They are he ones who ratified the new contract. Did they not see this would be a result of offering those crap wages to the new folks only. Like a guy I know who has a CL65 rating could go to jazz get a right seat for like 35k be on reserve and go back to a prop or go to Ggn and be a DEC on a jet for 60k. If everything is just a stepping stone now what stone is better?
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rudder
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by rudder »

Tanker299 wrote:Is ALPA the answer? Wasaya and the Bear are in and they have seriously weak CBAs. Up front bonds at an ALPA represented airline.... How does this make it better. At the end of the day it's still up to the pilot group. Jazz pilots are making GGN Sky Porter and dub jay E places to look at. They are he ones who ratified the new contract. Did they not see this would be a result of offering those crap wages to the new folks only. Like a guy I know who has a CL65 rating could go to jazz get a right seat for like 35k be on reserve and go back to a prop or go to Ggn and be a DEC on a jet for 60k. If everything is just a stepping stone now what stone is better?
Step 1: investigate carriers with higher starting pay than Jazz

Step 2: accept a job offer from a carrier with higher starting pay than Jazz

Step 3: sign a union card ASAP at that carrier and support a negotiating agenda for improved pay, work rules, pension, and benefits.

Eventually Jazz wil have to offer better starting pay and eventually the other carriers will have to improve everything else.

A rising tide floats all boats.
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Last edited by rudder on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
frostedflakes
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by frostedflakes »

I have to ask, if ALPA is the answer why is it that jazz was once a career place is now a stepping stone. It was under alpa that wages dropped to the lowest levels in the regional game at jazz and YOS lost. I'm all for better working conditions and more money but ALPA has actually given new jazz hires less over the years. Just my 2 cents
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mbav8r
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by mbav8r »

frostedflakes wrote:I have to ask, if ALPA is the answer why is it that jazz was once a career place is now a stepping stone. It was under alpa that wages dropped to the lowest levels in the regional game at jazz and YOS lost. I'm all for better working conditions and more money but ALPA has actually given new jazz hires less over the years. Just my 2 cents
Because Jazz pilots represented by ALPA were/are competing with pilots who are not.
I would also like to say, if Pilots stopped applying and accepting the new wages at Jazz, they would go up. It was asked at a road show presentation, if the company was worried they wouldn't be able to attract new pilots and the response was, we will know in about 6 months if we went to far! No kidding, I was there and heard it with my own ears. Reality is, they are still able to fill the ground schools, as is GGN and SR and Encore.
Imagine you're a Jazz pilot and you're presented a contract that preserves what you have and even improves it a little but new hires will be offered less. If we say no do you think for a second there would have been any new pilots at Jazz, I didn't! We would have died a slow painful death and in 3 1/2 years we would be a much smaller airline if not gone altogether.
Like I said, with all due respect to my colleagues, if they weren't willing to accept the new conditions the company would have had to do something and we all would have won but the idiots keep coming!
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TGale
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by TGale »

For the record, ALPA has not given or taken away anything from anybody. ALPA provides a legal, certified bargaining platform for the pilots at an airline to represent themselves with the support of significant resources far beyond what would be otherwise available. We support each other in times of need and share information, resources and expertise. The politics belong to the members but the jobs belong to the companies we work for.
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Tanker299
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by Tanker299 »

It's a very valid point. I just think personally that ALPA should have a few hard fast rules such as no upfront bonds or wages lower then the non Union shops out there and most definitely not to screw the guys coming in behind you!

I am for the unions in our industry but I want to look at the con's but they have dropped the ball a bit in the past few years. The AC regionals have died so many times but the routes they serve and the people they move still need to be moved. Nobody has 30 years at Jazz they all worked at another AC regional before it was all one.
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TGale
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by TGale »

Dropped the ball? I don't think so.

The only way for pilots to truly take control of their collective future is to become a federally certified profession with the authority to set standards of pay and working conditions across all of the industry. That is not the mandate or the will of ALPA. We may wish it to be so, but that is just not going to happen. The CCPP is/was on the right track but the political will just does not exist to give such power to an industrial/labour group. Our strength right now is in our resolve to educate and inform those who not only control the airlines but those who pay for our services and benefit from our unique expertise and experience. We are at the pointy end of the safety and operational integrity stick but are slipping to the stinky end of the compensation stick.

You tell two friends and I'll tell two friends. OK?

TG
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PROC_HDG
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by PROC_HDG »

rxl wrote: THEN SIGN THE DAMN UNION CARD
These things don't happen over night. There is a strong ALPA push in the works at SR.

PROC_HDG
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AvExpress
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by AvExpress »

ALPA or any union isn't going to do squat. It's very evident over the years. True unity happens on the mental level of each pilot. We are our own worst enemy to ourselves and others.

mbav8r, idiots may come for the current low wages, but who are the ones who voted yes for that contract?
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mbav8r
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by mbav8r »

Like I said, voting yes protected current Jazz pilots. I will say this very loud so people get it, NEW PILOTS HAVE A VOTE AS WELL, VOTE NO AND THEY WILL HAVE TO CHANGE IT.
Do you get that if we voted this contract down, there would be NO need for new pilots at Jazz, there would be NO movement and only a reduction of flying, don't believe me, we voted the contract in and both GGN and SR have done nothing but grow. We are less pilots at Jazz post contract and the movement is a big smoke screen, we do less flying now than before.
If AC stops their ground schools, so will we!
One more time for the ones that don't get it, YOU have a vote and you don't even work here yet, say NO, fly your king air until they fix it!
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TGale
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by TGale »

Voting against a contract or even going on strike can go either way. There are a couple of cases in point that demonstrate the risk. A decision has to be made on what to protect and what to sacrifice when negotiating in a declining market.
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KAG
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by KAG »

Art Garfunkel wrote:
BingBong wrote:You GGN scabs thought you were getting dirty looks before?? Better bring your big girl panties
Very classy comment BingBong!! That really helps.

How about the Westjet pilots that created the incredible working conditions at Encore?! Or at least signed off on it. Their names are on the front of the agreement. It was the threat of Encore's cheap cheap (80 percent of industry rates) that brought on Sky Regional and the transfer of RJ 100/200 to GGN. Oh, and lets not forget ACPA's fumble on the five yard line that allowed other regional carriers in the AC brand.

Time to work together to better the "profession" for everyone. And that means EVERY PILOT.
For the record, we DIDN'T sign off on encore working conditions, we agreed in principle to a regional airline. Period. Those (WAWCON) were supposed to be negotiated after, but that didn't happen.

As for calling regional pilots "scabs" or "bottom feeders"... its pilots needing and accepting a job, simple Supply and demand which thankfully is changing. How holier then thou are you who sit in the big machines and look down at those "bottom feeders" who are just trying to feed their families or gain the experience required to grace the skies with us flying gods. Meanwhile its our respective management(s) laughing all the way to the bank(s) as we are played off each other and happily do it cause we love to to do nothing more then then compare di@ks and slam each other.
Why not instead of scowl at said regional pilot, buy him or her a coffee cause frankly they deserve it.
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AvExpress
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by AvExpress »

Well said KAG!
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TheStig
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by TheStig »

mbav8r wrote:[
Here's my story, after waiting nearly 10 years to even be able to hold a left seat, that's right first time I was able to hold left seat at any base was one year ago at 9 years in. I bid it with about 30 or so below me and before I even start the training a new bid comes out where if I can hold it at my base it will be bottom reserve, otherwise I may have to move to another base, but where? Who knows, it's a crap shoot as to where all the reduced/displaced pilots will go.
Thanks for putting this into perspective. We all know how quickly things can change in this business, but this still seems pretty surprising. Are pilots who have deferred their positions at AC still shown as active on the equipment bids until they leave? Or would this bid already have them removed?

I can appreciate that their are several different reasons for not joining mainline and everyone hates to see those who stayed drawing such a short straw. Loyalty and experience shouldn't be punished after the pilot group came to the table to allow Jazz the opportunity to regain its competitive footing. Hopefully things aren't as bad as they seem right now.
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Art Garfunkel
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by Art Garfunkel »

[/quote]For the record, we DIDN'T sign off on encore working conditions, we agreed in principle to a regional airline. Period. Those (WAWCON) were supposed to be negotiated after, but that didn't happen. [/quote]


HI Kag,

So on the first page of the Encore's "Agreement", it clearly says "Agreement between Westjet Encore, and The pilots in the service of Westjet Encore, As represented by the Westjet pilot's Association"

On page 3, it cleary states the names of one WJPA co-chair, and 6 executive members who's signatures are on the document. So you are telling me that mainline pilots had nothing to do with the working conditions at Encore?

I know the "WJPA" doesn't represent all of the pilots at Westjet, but they are still mainline pilots that put their signatures on that document.
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KAG
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Re: Winter Bid released today.

Post by KAG »

That is exactly what I'm saying.
We voted in the concept, nothing more. It was a leap of faith.
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