Diamond Flight Centre Experience

[Bede]

5x 5 ,

I picked my words carefully. No where did I write that everyone is a little man, and I prefaced my statement alluding to that it was my personal experience.

There's nothing wrong with being an instructor- I still instruct and believe it to be valuable experience. However from having worked in aviation from FTU's, bush, 703, airlines, I have experienced far more "little men" in the white shirt FTU'S crowd than I have in the hundreds of other pilots I have worked with. They're not all like that, just a greater proportion.

Here's just one example. I walk into an FTU to inquire about a check out. (I fully realize I need a check out, no issues). I'm told I need a 3 hour check out because I'm not current on a 152 despite that I'd flown 172 within the last couple months and still regularly fly light aircraft. Of course the guy throws in that just because I fly jets, it's a lot different than a 152, Yada, Yada, Yada. Despite that I still instruct on 172's plus fly bigger stuff. By comparison if some guy who only had a PPL jumped into a larger airplane with me, the only thing I'd say, is giver her hell. It's just another airplane with a few more buttons and a bit faster.

That's just one example.

Sorry for the self-righteous rant, but you did ask...

[photofly]

having either NO or next to NO experience in the real field of flying

What is "the real field of flying"? I'm curious.

[Ypilot]

Profit on renting an aircraft to a licenced pilot: $8.33/hr

Profit on renting an aircraft and instructor to a student pilot: $43.50/hr

You don't need to block out many lessons by having pre- booked a training aircraft to a renter before you're losing money hand over fist. Better actually to keep the aircraft free and on the ground.

It is not *that* easy. You need a certain amount of hours to cover your fixed costs. A big renters-client base is a good diversification of your activities in case the amount of students at your school is temporarily (too) low. You can adjust your check out procedures according to how busy you are: rigid 5 hour check out policies or half an hour to 5 hours, depending on what the student actually needs.

If you have 10 airplanes but only students for 6, it is a good idea to rent out the other 4, you might even charge an extra over night fee to bump up that profit margin.

See the underline sentence. Photofly profit numbers mean absolutely nothing. If your airplanes fly 150 hours or 500 hours a year, it won't be the same.

It would be more accurate to say that if all of your airplanes are busy with students, it is not worth it for a school to rent it to licensed pilots. Not profitable... LOL we all know that flight schools run like not for profit organism. Thanks for their generosity.

As for the comment on up front cash training bonds and the emotional debate, if you have a house or condo in Toronto, a decent amount of money in your bank account it is true it doesn't really matter, it is just risk management of your money. For a19 years old pilot with at least 65000$ of debt and no credit history, it is a different debate.

[photofly]

In fact a fairly small proportion of the costs of a 1973 C172 are fixed costs. Fuel, landing/flight fees, maintenance and parts are all based on hours flown. So it's mostly not worth renting them just to keep them in the air. Particularly when casual renters compete with students for the sunny Sunday afternoons when everyone wants to fly.

Now if renters were happy and competent to "keep the planes in the air" when it's overcast at 800, that would be a different story.

As the old saying goes, turnover is vanity, profit is sanity.

[yxu737]

If i were you i wouldn't waste my time in getting a checkout there. If you are looking for a place to fly and not get hosed Forest City Flight Centre is a way better option one flight checkout more than likely, a lot more freedom and they will work around you're schedule. I have had nothing but good experiences there and your money will go a lot further at Forest City.

[LtDan]

If i were you i wouldn't waste my time in getting a checkout there. If you are looking for a place to fly and not get hosed Forest City Flight Centre is a way better option one flight checkout more than likely, a lot more freedom and they will work around you're schedule. I have had nothing but good experiences there and your money will go a lot further at Forest City.

+1

Mike the CFI is awesome to work with, and will get you up and running in no time. They have a couple of 172s and a 152 online now so the schedule is quite flexible to suit your goals. Sometimes same day rentals are an option which is great for those Hanover breakfast cravings.

[goingnowherefast]

If that's the same Mike I'm thinking of, then I'll recommend them too. Used to run Crosswinds Aviation? Awesome guy. However it's been 10 years since I was flying down there.

[riaz6668]

@goingnowhere fast yes that's the same Mike from Crosswind aviation. Still the same awesome guy, same location, same outfit just new name. I worked for Mike for 3 years. Most honest guy in Flight training.

[avyonx]

In regards to DFC, Bill is a great guy with a great team. You must keep in mind here that they are not totally in the business of off the street training. If that's what you're looking for then you'll pay a little more. DFC is set up with the Western University Pilot Program which is a professional course and there is where his business model lies. He also has the cadet summer training course and in honesty with those 2 programs running having someone coming in to just rent essentially messes with his scheduling of flights and maintenance. I did all my flight training there but at the same time was an employee at Diamond so we had a deal. That was also several years ago. I set up a buddy of mine to complete his multi-IFR a few years back and was well looked after. If you just want to rent for a few hours I recommend going elsewhere but understand you'd like your time in a Diamond. That being said, follow their procedures as they have SOP's for their contracts, why deviate...

[lownslow]

having someone coming in to just rent essentially messes with his scheduling of flights and maintenance.

If they have no interest in training individuals, whatever the reason, they should consider removing the very publicly located front desk.

[CFWGF]

In regards to DFC, Bill is a great guy with a great team. You must keep in mind here that they are not totally in the business of off the street training. If that's what you're looking for then you'll pay a little more. DFC is set up with the Western University Pilot Program which is a professional course and there is where his business model lies. He also has the cadet summer training course and in honesty with those 2 programs running having someone coming in to just rent essentially messes with his scheduling of flights and maintenance. I did all my flight training there but at the same time was an employee at Diamond so we had a deal. That was also several years ago. I set up a buddy of mine to complete his multi-IFR a few years back and was well looked after. If you just want to rent for a few hours I recommend going elsewhere but understand you'd like your time in a Diamond. That being said, follow their procedures as they have SOP's for their contracts, why deviate...

I am sure Bill is an ok guy. If I was committing to Mult-Ifr training he would have have rolled out a red carpet. My whole objective was to fly a diamond because of its flight characteristics. Being prepared to write a written open book exam is not deviating.....

[fixedpitch]

My whole objective was to fly a diamond because of its flight characteristics.

Just curious...what's so interesting about a Diamond's flight characteristics?

[DanWEC]

My whole objective was to fly a diamond because of its flight characteristics.

Just curious...what's so interesting about a Diamond's flight characteristics?

The DV20 is a hell of a lot more fun than a 172!

Glides like a, well, glider, rudder you actually can feel and need to use, has a stick as opposed to a yoke, and gets you used to a variable pitch (pseudo constant speed) prop.

A bit finicky when it comes to temperature though.... they don't like anything below 14 degrees or above 15....

[CFWGF]

My whole objective was to fly a diamond because of its flight characteristics.

Just curious...what's so interesting about a Diamond's flight characteristics?

Cruise at 120kt with stall of 44kt. Handling with the push rod system instead of cables and pulleys gives better responsiveness to inputs. Climb performance.

[Stevo226]

In regards to DFC, Bill is a great guy with a great team. You must keep in mind here that they are not totally in the business of off the street training. If that's what you're looking for then you'll pay a little more. DFC is set up with the Western University Pilot Program which is a professional course and there is where his business model lies. He also has the cadet summer training course and in honesty with those 2 programs running having someone coming in to just rent essentially messes with his scheduling of flights and maintenance. I did all my flight training there but at the same time was an employee at Diamond so we had a deal. That was also several years ago. I set up a buddy of mine to complete his multi-IFR a few years back and was well looked after. If you just want to rent for a few hours I recommend going elsewhere but understand you'd like your time in a Diamond. That being said, follow their procedures as they have SOP's for their contracts, why deviate...

I started my instructor rating there a number of years ago when they were in the old building. After 4 flights I was told that there was no more availability for the next 2 months because a few western students were doing their instructor ratings. I said good ridence and got it done across the street in the next month or so. As far as I'm concerned they can all go pound salt from their high horse

[DanJ]

I started my instructor rating there a number of years ago when they were in the old building. After 4 flights I was told that there was no more availability for the next 2 months because a few western students were doing their instructor ratings. I said good ridence and got it done across the street in the next month or so. As far as I'm concerned they can all go pound salt from their high horse

20 years ago?

[Old Dog Flying]

Sitting here with a glass of fine Amber Medicinal in my hand and reading this thread makes me think that GA in Canada is going the way of the DODO bird.

During my more than 60 years in GA I ran 4 FTUs and at no time were renters screwed around in a manner that sent them "across the street". Renters were always welcome because sooner or later the student population would dry up and the operation required hours to pay the bills.

Recently a good friend, who has thousands of hours in aircraft of all categories, sold his taildragging beast and wanting to stay current until he could find another suitable aircraft, went to a FTU for a C172 check-out. After 45 minutes of dual he was handed a bill for well over $200.00 and told to come back for more dual...because the "circuit was full" and he was unable to demonstrate a PFL from downwind. This additional dual would take another 45 minutes!. Given the circumstances he told the young inexperienced instructor to stuff it.

As for the DA20, aka "Plastic Lawn Dart" , well it truly is about as boring as watching paint dry...and yes I've flown the type!. The 300 hour instructor was convinced that I was crazy doing 50 degree bank clearing turns and she almost cried when I did a 3 turn spin. She later came very close to pranging my Grumman AA1A..on take-off and was unable to fly a stabilized approach at 80 mph and again I had to take control. Or rick a bent aircraft.

Barney

[fixedpitch]

Recently a good friend, who has thousands of hours in aircraft of all categories, sold his taildragging beast and wanting to stay current until he could find another suitable aircraft, went to a FTU for a C172 check-out. After 45 minutes of dual he was handed a bill for well over $200.00 and told to come back for more dual...because the "circuit was full" and he was unable to demonstrate a PFL from downwind. This additional dual would take another 45 minutes!. Given the circumstances he told the young inexperienced instructor to stuff it.

hmmmm...circuit was full? Was that CYYJ by any chance?

Aside from that 90 minutes total ain't that bad for a checkout these days....but I get where you're coming from. And yes GA is probably going the way of the Dodo.

[Old Dog Flying]

Fixedpitch: No, not YYJ but one of the bigger operations on the Lower Mainland. And the school involved has been, rumor has it, sold to off-shore interests just like every tthing else in BC

[5x5]

I find it interesting that there is a common sense that today's young people feel so entitled. Yet at the same time, many older more experienced pilots express a very strong sense of entitlement when it comes to renting aircraft. Just because they have X number of hours or have flown a "mighty tail dragger" they shouldn't have to follow the same procedures as any other new customer.

With regulations and the oversight such as it is from TC these days, schools find it necessary to go through all the procedures regardless of background. If they try to shortcut things and an incident occurs afterward they can be in it with TC. And if you think that it's chicken-droppings to be "scared" of TC, then get your own OC and jump through the hoops and see how long you keep just throwing the keys across the counter to the next person who comes through the door.

Go to any fly-in around the country and watch and see how poorly many of the older, experienced pilots execute circuit procedures or handle radio communication. An hour or two with a "young, inexperienced instructor" who is current with regulations and procedures wouldn't do them any harm at all.

[digits_]

The funniest thing I remember from when I was the "young, inexperienced instructor" while checking out the "super experienced ex-bush pilot with 5 million flying hours" was that the super ace could not land the c172 without landing on the nosewheel every time. A suggestion on how to improve this (longer final, more shallow approach isntead of dive bombing to the runway) was of course laughed away every time as it was not the way a bush pilot flies an airplane. Followed by a lecture on how you should fly approaches.

Now that I think about it, I should have billed him for my time during his lecture. Needless to say he did not rent our airplane solo.

[Rookie50]

I find it interesting that there is a common sense that today's young people feel so entitled. Yet at the same time, many older more experienced pilots express a very strong sense of entitlement when it comes to renting aircraft. Just because they have X number of hours or have flown a "mighty tail dragger" they shouldn't have to follow the same procedures as any other new customer.

.

I think that's a fair point on older pilots.

Where I see the young people's entitlement, whether it's those holding a new CPL or a new MBA, is the attitude ---

A) "I now know everything and should start out at 100K a year, and for sure don't let me get my hands dirty anywhere"

And B) -- (training bonds) "the employer should train me for free, take all the risk, and if I get a better offer, I can walk anytime and the employer should eat the training costs". Why, exactly, should they?

And BTW, being in debt isn't the business owners issue, either. No one forced anyone to get 50 or 100 K in debt. Work first, like a dog if necessary, and pay as you go.

That's what many of us did, who didn't even have the option to borrow, let alone a mommy and daddy to live with and pay the bills.

business owners need to first be concerned with staying in business. Those who declare all operators for requiring training bonds low life's and I'll go elsewhere, many would say, "next, don't let the door hit you on the way out". And good luck.

Or set up (any) business and see just how easy it is. It's hard.

Not trying to be difficult about these things, just to see training bonds in context of the other qualities of a job. Starting out is really hard, I get that. If you try to see things from the employers point of view sometimes, might be a better relationship.

[iFlyAero]

I have flown at Diamond and I've also flown at different flight schools in the GTA. They typically require pilots/students to be extremely familiar with the aircraft systems and performance (i.e. studying the POH). By any means I'm not judging, but I find it hard to believe that OP was able to go through the POH and be thoroughly familiar with the aircraft in ONE night. And I would not be surprised at all if people need 2 flights to be proficient and checked out in the 20. It is VERY different from your typical trainer. You actually have to use your feet! Majority of their 20s are on glass and though it they are easy to use once you get to know it, I understand why he asked you to "play" on the G500 board - get to know it on the ground for free rather than spending extra 10mins in the air learning how to set the altimeter setting. That's the culture of the flight school and that's how they do things and like someone said earlier in this thread, if you can't adhere to their SOPs then yeah, things aren't going to work. Speaking as a former customer, DFC always provided wonderful, well-maintained equipment and a safe environment to fly.

[fixedpitch]

It is VERY different from your typical trainer. You actually have to use your feet!

I don't recall that it was that different from other trainers but maybe my memory is failing me. I found it easy to land and nothing exceptional in the air. The differential braking was a bit tricky. Otherwise it was pretty benign. However I had steam gauges not glass so maybe that's the biggest difference here.

As for other GTA checkouts my experience was a couple of hours to get checked out at BFC on the C172. At Markham and Buttonville it was about the same.

[atphat]

having either NO or next to NO experience in the real field of flying

What is "the real field of flying"? I'm curious.

Probably anything other than instructing?