Flying co-captain

[garfield]

Hi,

When two captains fly together in a 2 crew aircraft, can they log both PIC? Or one of them have to log co-pilot or even dual?

thanx

[ahramin]

Dual is when a pilot is receiving training on a training flight. You can't log dual on a revenue flight.

In Canada, as there is only 1 PIC, only that pilot logs PIC. The only exception is an approved PIC under supervision program.

[garfield]

A WJ pilot told me when they do route checks, both captain and check pilot log PIC!

So the only one who can log PIC is the person who sign the log unless you have an approved PIC under supervision program?

[ThatArmyGuy]

only one who can log PIC is the person who sign the log

Whoever is listed as PIC in the journey log can log PIC. Not to be confused with the quote above. An instructor can be listed as PIC with their student but let the student sign the journey log. Similarly, the captain may delegate the journey log responsibility to an FO who then signs the log on their behalf. in the end, the captain's name is the PIC, regardless of signature.

[single_swine_herder]

This is an interesting thread for me because it has been one of my miffing points since I first began to hear the term in use.

Until somewhat recently, there was no such position or term defined in regulations.

Here is the link to definitions .... scroll down to "Co-Captain."

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 6-1812.htm

Since about 2010 the term is used in Pilot In Command Under Supervision matters where the "simulated Captain" is allowed to log time as PIC even though not qualified to do for the sole purpose of licence upgrade flight time purposes and regulatory credits.

The Air Force is an interesting situation for logging, (and that may be where the Westjet info comes from) .... pretty much everybody that has "a green ticket" after time at the Operational Training Unit logs all flight time as PIC.

A C-130 for example has an Aircraft Commander .... he's the guy assigned to be responsible for everything and logs it all even if he's sleeping on his way to Norway. The pilots manipulating the controls in either left or right seat (although seat occupancy has zero to do with who is designated as PIC) also log PIC time, so if there is a relief pilot on board, you have 4 "qualified" people, all logging their experience as PIC.

When I reviewed my first log from members of a Herk Sqdn that had flown to Bardufoss Norway, I found that interesting to learn and find it was all perceived to be "legit" although pretty strange when compared to logging time on "civie street."

[Meatservo]

We should just let everyone say they are "in command". It makes them feel better, and what's the harm? No-one wants to be subordinate- it's degrading. Whatever you put in your logbook is fine. I'm going back through my logbook right now and changing all the dual and co-pilot time to "in command". I don't have much in the way of co-pilot time in the first place, but going back a few years and moving all my medium jet co-pilot time into the "PIC" category will open up a lot of higher-paying job opportunities!

Thanks for the rationalization!

[goingnowherefast]

I was always under the impression it meant both pilots were qualified as captain, meaning captain PPCs. One guy is PIC and logs PIC. The other guy is SIC and logs SIC.

[Meatservo]

In other words, one of them is the first officer on that flight. I don't understand the intensity of the desire to identify oneself as a "potential" captain. Like, "I'm not the captain today but I totally could be, so there". It's not like being a first officer or a captain is your role in society, it's just your role on that plane, that day. Why obfuscate the facts with spurious titles that mean nothing other than a bromide to the ego? It's childish. What do the passengers or other crew members care what PPC the second-in-command has? There's only one person in charge at any given time.

[single_swine_herder]

Precisely my point meatservo ..... it is nothing more than some form of ego stroke in my never to be humble opinion.

The management designates who is the person ultimately responsible for the flight and equipment and is the PIC. The other functions as the F/O regardless of what label somebody hangs on them.

The next leg or next day, the situation is reversed if so designated by management.

I was on a 705 carrier a few weeks ago and the cabin announcement indicated that co-captains were operating the flight. My thoughts were .... "Oh goody, a PICUS applicant is playing Captain because they hired somebody without enough experience to obtain an ATPL."

[digits_]

Precisely my point meatservo ..... it is nothing more than some form of ego stroke in my never to be humble opinion.

Not really. I think it is quite an important question to ask, there is quite a difference between logging 500 multi turbine/jet pic in a year or 250, career wise and insurance wise that is.

[Saxub]

I was on a 705 carrier a few weeks ago and the cabin announcement indicated that co-captains were operating the flight. My thoughts were .... "Oh goody, a PICUS applicant is playing Captain because they hired somebody without enough experience to obtain an ATPL."

Or there were two actual Captains on board (as per their contract/pay/position etc.) operating the flight. It's my understanding that this happens regularly from time to time.

[AuxBatOn]

The Air Force is an interesting situation for logging, (and that may be where the Westjet info comes from) .... pretty much everybody that has "a green ticket" after time at the Operational Training Unit logs all flight time as PIC.

A C-130 for example has an Aircraft Commander .... he's the guy assigned to be responsible for everything and logs it all even if he's sleeping on his way to Norway. The pilots manipulating the controls in either left or right seat (although seat occupancy has zero to do with who is designated as PIC) also log PIC time, so if there is a relief pilot on board, you have 4 "qualified" people, all logging their experience as PIC.

When I reviewed my first log from members of a Herk Sqdn that had flown to Bardufoss Norway, I found that interesting to learn and find it was all perceived to be "legit" although pretty strange when compared to logging time on "civie street."

False. We all log First Pilot but only one person logs PIC.

[rxl]

There can only ever be one Pilot in Command of an aircraft at a time and only that pilot so designated can log PIC time. Any other pilot on board who logs PIC time is doing so fraudulently except within the parameters set by a Pilot in Command Under Supervision (PICUS) program approved by Transport Canada. Even under PICUS, the designated Captain is still solely the Pilot in Command of the flight and holds the ultimate responsibility for the flight.

[switchflicker]

So we have a Pilot in Command, a Second in Command, an Aircraft Commander, a Captain,a First Officer, a Pilot Flying, a Pilot not Flying - oops Pilot Monitoring, a Pilot in Command Under Supervision, a Pilot and a Co-pilot. What the heck is a First Pilot?

No wonder we don't know how to address (or dress) ourselves for a flight.

Just saw another one Pilot in Waiting. ???

[Meatservo]

It's getting just as stupid on commercial cruise ships- They typically have a Captain (master) who is legally in charge; the "staff captain", who is "a" captain but not "the" captain, who is in charge of crew discipline and acts as the second-in-command (even thought there is also a first officer), chief engineer, hotel manager, all of whom wear four stripes on their shoulders or wrists. The navigation crew has the first, second and third officers and possibly some cadets who can serve as officer of the watch, then there are pursers and second and third engineers, and various department managers,etc, all of whom are festooned with various numbers of stripes on their uniforms whether or not they have any navigational qualifications.

Why this has to be different than your typical "Captain, first, second and third officer" arrangement you'd see on a freighter pretty much boils down to a bunch of guys all wanting to ponce around with the most amount of gold braid they can possibly have on their work suits, for the benefit of the passengers and their own egos.

[ahramin]

Just goes to show, time spent as a pilot in an aircraft is time. This fetish on whether it's PIC time or co-pilot time or whatever time is a little silly when you think about it. Pilot time is pilot time.

[Meatservo]

I think I disagree with that... there might not be a difference at a large carrier where both pilots hold an ATPL and have several thousand hours of experience... but there are many aircraft with a complement of two pilots that are crewed by captains that can pretty much fly the plane by themselves and very low-time CPL holders who are definitely being instructed every step of the way. Come to think of it, this would be the case on a large transport-category jet with a captain who is an actual pilot and first officer who has a MCPL or is a recent graduate from a "cadet" program.

Sorry ahramin, I think making the distinction is valid. This is why I think "co-captain" is invalid terminology. If I'm hiring someone to be in charge of an aircraft, I think I would like them to demonstrate some experience being in charge of an aircraft.

[Roar]

Personally I couldn't care less about which seat I sit in or which column I'm filling out in my log book. I'm PIC qualified and use the Captain designation because it allows me to negotiate a higher salary.
Wage and working condition is what matters not which seat you happen to be riding in that leg.

[goingnowherefast]

It's largely from the corporate world and appears to have split over into other areas of aviation too. An owner will think that a captain PPC is better than an FO PPC, so they require all pilots that fly them around to have captain PPCs and thus captain contracts, captain pay. No gold bars though, because many corporate pilots don't wear a monkey suit.

The pilots will probably alternate trips as PIC and are happy doing it. There is a definite PIC and SIC on each flight, but both pilots' contracts say "Captain", their pay and training is identical.

[single_swine_herder]

The Air Force is an interesting situation for logging, (and that may be where the Westjet info comes from) .... pretty much everybody that has "a green ticket" after time at the Operational Training Unit logs all flight time as PIC.

A C-130 for example has an Aircraft Commander .... he's the guy assigned to be responsible for everything and logs it all even if he's sleeping on his way to Norway. The pilots manipulating the controls in either left or right seat (although seat occupancy has zero to do with who is designated as PIC) also log PIC time, so if there is a relief pilot on board, you have 4 "qualified" people, all logging their experience as PIC.

When I reviewed my first log from members of a Herk Sqdn that had flown to Bardufoss Norway, I found that interesting to learn and find it was all perceived to be "legit" although pretty strange when compared to logging time on "civie street."

False. We all log First Pilot but only one person logs PIC.

Well, when they all filled out the application forms as a group and handed them to me, the "First Pilot" flight time was entered as PIC and handed to me .... so when I asked about it and reviewed the logs at the same time, that is what I found.

The "First Pilot" time was represented as being the guy in charge of the aircraft ....

Further, they all described exactly what I wrote.

So it is not a false statement.

SSH

[Meatservo]

No gold bars though,

Too bad. I heard corporate pilots got paid in gold bars.

[garfield]

What about long haul flights? Is the captain still logging PIC time while he's sleeping in the back?

[noflex]

What about long haul flights? Is the captain still logging PIC time while he's sleeping in the back?

Yes because he's the PIC. He can do whatever he feels is safest for the success of the flight. Probably being fresh during the takeoff and landing of a wide body flight, is safer than centring the heading bug for 12 hours.

[Cat Driver]

This is an interesting discussion.

The importance of how you log your time in your personal log book may not really matter when it comes to being hired.

I have hired a lot of pilots during my career and I never looked at a personal log book to determine an applicants time.

I checked their license for validity and interviewed them, if the interview went well I gave them a check ride in the airplane they were to be hired on.

If they demonstrated they could fly it and make decisions that met the standard for the job I then asked them for the names of all their previous employers if it was not their first flying job.

The final decision to hire them or not depended on their previous job performance.

And of course if a former employer gave a bad recommendation it depended a lot on the reputation of the employer, if the employers reputation was not good or really bad I leaned toward the applicant.

Once a pilot gets a few years of experience behind them keeping a personal log book is only a diary that may someday be nice for the pilot to read.

I have not kept a personal log for many decades...

TC has a minimum requirement for showing recency and if asked for it it would be no big deal to write one up to meet the minimums.

[Meatservo]

I wish things still worked that way.