Integrated Programs

[YazeedBayyari]

Hello,

These schools offer iATPL, that lets you do the exams and stay valid for 5 years. There is the cheaper option like Harv's Air, around $55k, that offer ATPL course and MCC course (195 hours)
Brampton offers ATPL with CRM/MCC and some training on the B200 for around 70k (205-215 hours),
Ottawa Aviation Services, gives ATPL, with bunch of other stuff, like CRM/MCC, B220 Virtual Type Rating, SOP, upset recovery and finish with 250 hours for 75k
Moncton Flight College offers iATPL with B200 operation and MCC, end with 195hours for 56k

All the way from PPL to CPL is straight forward for me (PPL, CPL, IFR multi, night, OTT VFR = CPL/IR) but towards ATPL, I get confused.
When they say ATPL course, what does that include?
Should it include MCC, CRM, both? Shouldn't they offer Jet Orientation Course? Upset recovery? I mean proper ATPL course (not just exams)

basically, if I go Harv's Air, will I be missing other bits like CRM?

It is really worrying to choose a school and find out that that school provided lower than usual gradation hours, or less materials against another.

[fish4life]

I only ask because you mentioned a jet orientation course, do you have an idea what you will be flying when you get your license?

[SuperchargedRS]

What idiot would hire you into a jet with only 250tt

SketchyAir?

Most folks worry about their ATPL after a couple flying jobs and once they actually have ATPL kinda hours in their logs

[atphat]

What idiot would hire you into a jet with only 250tt

SketchyAir?

Most folks worry about their ATPL after a couple flying jobs and once they actually have ATPL kinda hours in their logs

Jazz. Sunwing is starting I believe. Almost every major European Airline. Plenty in Asia. It's the way of the future. Like it or not

[Saxub]

Shouldn't they offer Jet Orientation Course? Upset recovery? I mean proper ATPL course (not just exams)

You will learn in depth CRM at your future airline employer and they will teach you how to fly a jet. This is not Europe where you will be flying a 737 right after flight school.

Harv's is a great school, and I've flown with a few pilots who trained and instructed there.

As for integrated courses like the ones you're looking at, the minimum is IIRC 195 hours. Any other school and TC requires 200 hours for a CPL.

At the end of the day it comes down to where you want to live, how much you want to fly (Winnipeg has a lot of good winter flying days) and how much you want to spend. Choose a school that is known to be good not based on what the curriculum might say to try to sell you on said school. Ask around, go there in person and talk to the staff.

[Saxub]

What idiot would hire you into a jet with only 250tt

SketchyAir?

Most folks worry about their ATPL after a couple flying jobs and once they actually have ATPL kinda hours in their logs

Jazz. Sunwing is starting I believe. Almost every major European Airline. Plenty in Asia. It's the way of the future. Like it or not

We've only seen the tip of the iceberg, were not quite there yet. It's going to take many more years before we start seeing it as the "norm" in Canada. Currently, new pilots can still expect to fly for a few years in a smaller aircraft before being hired into a regional or mainline carrier. Jazz is still only calling 1500ish hour pilots. A few below but not many. Sault and Seneca have the Jazz award, but such a small percent of the top students make it. So choosing a school based on what awards they have with carriers is wrong. Choose the school with the best instruction.

Sault has decent pilots but from what I've been told by former students they are run terribly right now and I would stay far away. Tie not centered? One Strike For You! Late to class because they made you drive in a blizzard to school only to get stuck? Strike Two!... Strike Three, you're gone. You can only go on pre planned cross country trips, no real route planning at all. Go to school in BC and plan a 8 hour XC through mountainous terrain, that's a bit more interesting that grabbing a route book and flying the same XC for the 4th time this month. That is what the subsidized programs have become, but that's what you need when pushing dozens of students through a program on a timeframe.

I'm rambling a bit, but OP... worry about getting your CPL and MIFR first. You can always write the ATPL exams later. There is no real "ATPL course" in Canada like there is in the USA or Europe. Here in Canada we expect by the time you have 1500 hours and the requirements to have an ATPL you'll have flown enough airplanes and know enough to be able to hold an ATPL. Europe has integrated programs because students go fly a A320 right out of school and never get a change to fly a King Air or Navajo or B1900. As someone who has been involved with hiring in the past, I won't think anything more of a student with 200 hours who has maybe some King Air time or an integrated iATPL over a student who doesn't. What matters is your personality, references and my ability to gauge if you will be a good fit and easy to train.

[YazeedBayyari]

If I have ATPL exams done with 200hrs, isn't it an edge over someone with only CPL/IR at 200hrs?
I also do have a degree in engineering if that makes a difference.

I wanted BC since my brother is already there, but they dont offer iATPLs.

what am I looking at in terms of jobs for an iATPL and a CPL/IR.

[fish4life]

200 hours and ATPL exams are like tits on a bull, you can't fly right seat of anything requiring AA's or IATRA until you have 250 anyway.

[digits_]

If I have ATPL exams done with 200hrs, isn't it an edge over someone with only CPL/IR at 200hrs?
I also do have a degree in engineering if that makes a difference.

I wanted BC since my brother is already there, but they dont offer iATPLs.

what am I looking at in terms of jobs for an iATPL and a CPL/IR.

I don't think there is any point in having those in Canada. I'd go for the cheapest option that would give you a CPL/multi ifr (or floats if that's what you want) with as many PIC hours as possible.

20 000 CAD difference in the quoted prices could give you about 150 PIC solo hours on a C172. That would be way more valuable.

[Saxub]

If I have ATPL exams done with 200hrs, isn't it an edge over someone with only CPL/IR at 200hrs?
I also do have a degree in engineering if that makes a difference.

I wanted BC since my brother is already there, but they dont offer iATPLs.

what am I looking at in terms of jobs for an iATPL and a CPL/IR.

Not in my mind for 703 because any job you have with me doesn't require it so I don't really care if you have it or not.

If you want to go to bc, check out BCITs program. It's very good.

[SuperchargedRS]

What idiot would hire you into a jet with only 250tt

SketchyAir?

Most folks worry about their ATPL after a couple flying jobs and once they actually have ATPL kinda hours in their logs

Jazz. Sunwing is starting I believe. Almost every major European Airline. Plenty in Asia. It's the way of the future. Like it or not

Jazz will take you with 250?? Tell me more...




As far as Asian airlines

That's why I don't fly those chit box airlines

200 hours and ATPL exams are like tits on a bull, you can't fly right seat of anything requiring AA's or IATRA until you have 250 anyway.

Bingo





As far as the "way of the future" what flight school sold you that line??





The US is going the other direction with the new ATP mandate, ain't no greenhorns flying airliners

[atphat]

Yes jazz will take you with 250 hrs. Not sure what more you need to hear.
Who cares who you fly on.
It is the way of the future. Just look at the industry. Globally. Might be hard for you but I understand.

I think it's great what the states are doing.

[40echotango]

[quote="YazeedBayyari"] A) If I have ATPL exams done with 200hrs, isn't it an edge over someone with only CPL/IR at 200hrs?
I also do have a degree in engineering if that makes a difference.

I wanted BC since my brother is already there, but they dont offer iATPLs.

B) what am I looking at in terms of jobs for an iATPL and a CPL/IR.[/quote


A) A rampie is a rampie is a rampie is a rampie......

B) Ramp! Ramp! Fueler! Ramp! CSR! Ramp!

Nobody hiring a 200 hour pilot is going to give two shakes about anything above and beyond a CPL. By all means, keep your studies up for the AA's, but focus on getting you blue book, and finding a flying job!

[SuperchargedRS]

Yes jazz will take you with 250 hrs. Not sure what more you need to hear.
Who cares who you fly on.
It is the way of the future. Just look at the industry. Globally. Might be hard for you but I understand.

I think it's great what the states are doing.

Who has been hired with 250hrs? Some one in a million marketing token kid?

As far as who is willing to ride what yeah kinda matters, no one rides, you're back in the unemployment line.

As far as the states go, you realize they have moved away from 3 figure hour pilots getting into the cockpit, expect maybe to clean it.

[atphat]

a recent jazz gs had half the class being college grads. So ya. 250 hrs. If that.

I'm sure Asiana doesn't care if you fly with them or not.

I was being real about the states. You should absolutely have an ATPL with real time before you get in the cockpit of a transport category jet. But that's not the way the industry is going. Again.... like it or not.

[SuperchargedRS]

a recent jazz gs had half the class being college grads. So ya. 250 hrs. If that.

I'm sure Asiana doesn't care if you fly with them or not.

I was being real about the states. You should absolutely have an ATPL with real time before you get in the cockpit of a transport category jet. But that's not the way the industry is going. Again.... like it or not.

And you have to have a ATP in the US for pt121 ops.

Any airline who puts a greenhorn into a transport category aircraft as their first job, well as far as I'm concerned that airline is a joke.

I don't like it, I don't dislike it, I don't really give a damn what all those 3rd world countries are doing, , I'm not riding in, or working in your flying tuk tuk, nor will anyone with a ounce of sense, but I'll sit back with a nice glass of scotch and watch the news when they lawn dart in during a CAVU approach or some other nonsense.


BTW, if you take your CPL written in these third world places, can you get a job as a iCPL/"frozen" CPL?

[Saxub]

a recent jazz gs had half the class being college grads. So ya. 250 hrs. If that.

I don't know where you got your information from...

Care to share?

[SuperchargedRS]

a recent jazz gs had half the class being college grads. So ya. 250 hrs. If that.

I don't know where you got your information from...

Care to share?

Best guess...

[atphat]

No I don't care to share. Im not sure what part 121 ops are nor do I want too. Think whatever you like about those airlines. Enjoy your scotch.

[YazeedBayyari]

fine, 250hrs with ATPL theory done, still wouldn't I be able to get a flying job in anything to build more hours?

[SuperchargedRS]

fine, 250hrs with ATPL theory done, still wouldn't I be able to get a flying job in anything to build more hours?

YES you would, but you'd be able to do just the same without the ATPL written,

it makes ZERO diffrence, infact in other places I've been, some rookie pilots get their CV trashed because they list ther cert as a "frozen ATPL" which is a joke to anyone who holds a real ATPL, you're just a CPL.

Frankly most places would rather have a CPL who has a sales background, or can work on small engines, or really any job that didn't involve mom and dad, prior to applying to their company, vs a iATPL


A smart student would be logging the hours towards their CPL in a glider or tailwheel, they'd spend less money and it is WAAAAY more impressive than a delusional kid with 250hrs and a ATPL written passed.

[Saxub]

a recent jazz gs had half the class being college grads. So ya. 250 hrs. If that.

I don't know where you got your information from...

Care to share?

Best guess...

Well... Radiohead IS good for you.