Fast Air Medevac Crash Bloodvein last night - 2nd in 2016

[marked]

2nd Air Ambulance crash / incident for Fast Air in 2016

- http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/plane-leaves ... -1.3111705

- http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/ ... 05781.html

[40echotango]

Nice Click Bait title , you'd be a great contributor to Buzzfeed.

Is a runway excursion really a crash? I'm not trying to take away from the occurences, but sheesh.

Glad nobody was hurt, just some bent metal. Very expensive bent metal...

40ET

[Redneck_pilot86]

Yes, of course a runway excursion with damage is a crash. What would you call it?

[marked]

Actually, 100% accurate without the use of subjective prejudice nor hyperbole.

- https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=190628

[porcsord]

Never mind, the article I was quoting was apparently 273 days old.

[AuxBatOn]

Barring a dual engine failure, isn't there a refusal speed that would be used preventing this kind if mishap? Like, if you abort faster than that speed you will go off the runway (with a cuple worst case scenario assumptions thrown in there)?

[mbav8r]

"It’s unlikely we’ll be investigating,” said Ross Peden, TSB senior air investigator based in Winnipeg."
“There are no injuries, and the aircraft is relatively intact"

"Aircraft accident: An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person (either inside or outside the aircraft) suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage"

Even the media basically calls it a runway excursion, come on! My first reaction was oh no, reading that title! Please change it and be more responsible with how you title these topics, a lot of people will have friends and family that work there, at the very least have "no injuries" in the fricken title.

[Gear Jerker]

MODS!!! Let's change the title of this thread to something much less dramatic and misleading.

[goingnowherefast]

Barring a dual engine failure, isn't there a refusal speed that would be used preventing this kind if mishap? Like, if you abort faster than that speed you will go off the runway (with a cuple worst case scenario assumptions thrown in there)?

The 703 regs don't require accelerate-stop or accelerate-go distances. The rules are written around "all-engines-operating" performance. They are perfectly within the rules to accelerate up to V1, have an engine failure and run off the end, or go flying and crash into the tree tops beyond the runway.

Most people flying multi-engined aircraft under 703 rules understand that high speed rejects are almost guaranteed to run off the end of the runway, so it requires a pretty big issue to cause a reject once the airspeed starts to get higher. It sounds pretty dumb, but the probability is low. When the inevitable does happen, there's a maximum of 9 passengers so the number of people exposed to this risk is also low.

[40echotango]

Word on the street is the runway in ZTA has been Sh1te all year. Lots of loose, deep gravel, crappy runway maint (adding gravel, dragging it instead of packing it). Wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't get good enough acceleration and rejected. Can't imagine they went off the end very fast. Still better to have a runway excursion than a (real) crash into the trees about 1000 feet or less away from where they stopped.

Not going to give the crew kudos as these threads normally do (in the typical sense), but I will say they made the better choice rejecting vs going. If what I have heard about the runway conditions in ZTA is true, shame on the staff for not maintaining a decent runway/regular pilots for not reporting or complaining about this as it is a government operated AD! Everyone lives another day.

40ET

[The Hammer]

Does a 200/B200 even have a V1 or just a Vr (they would be the same or within 1 knot anyway)? I don't think it does.

Those numbers were calculated based on paved runways and not using a rolling takeoff ie gravel technique. Bloodvein is "pavement" only went its frozen.
Balanced field isn't happening/ isn't required out of ZTA and yes its been wet lately so the area is crap. It just needs to freeze already.

No excuses but its bent metal and embarrassed pilots. Everyone walked away safe. Oh well if that's all this pilot shortage results in I'm fine with that.

[co-joe]

Does a 200/B200 even have a V1 or just a Vr (they would be the same or within 1 knot anyway)? I don't think it does.

Those numbers were calculated based on paved runways and not using a rolling takeoff ie gravel technique. Bloodvein is "pavement" only went its frozen.
Balanced field isn't happening/ isn't required out of ZTA and yes its been wet lately so the area is crap. It just needs to freeze already.

No excuses but its bent metal and embarrassed pilots. Everyone walked away safe. Oh well if that's all this pilot shortage results in I'm fine with that.

I've flown into there, 3004' x 75' of gravel in a black hole, a loooooong way from help if the shite goes down. V1 would be at of very near Vr but it isn't based on a balanced field, just on safety once airborne. 6 people with medevac sleds, oxygen, etc is a full plane. I don't think there is fuel there, but they'd still have been heavy, maybe gross. If I had to guess, I'd say once they hit 75 KIAS they were either going flying or going off the end. Scary.

[goingnowherefast]

The King Air has a V1, but it's trivial when you aren't required to meet accelerate-stop or accelerate-go performance. I guess it could be used as a minimum speed that the aircraft will fly with an engine inoperative, but it's also allowed to fly right into the obstacle past the end of the runway.

[bcat737]

Love the "word on the street" opinions ...

Notams generally cover soft & wet conditions, regular flights and medevac flights have been in and out on a daily basis. The crew did land prior to their departure "hence" is the decision making process a factor?

Let's hope a taxi way departure wasn't part of this, in such "soft" conditions?

Lot's of opinions and the fact that none of us were there ...

[Illya Kuryakin]

Nothing overly scientific here. From what I've been able to gleen, is the crew just didn't have the acceleration they were expecting and elected to abort. I wasnt there. But I've had the same feeling. Most of us have. I'd probably (right or wrong, but with no indication of mechanical issues) toss out more flap and sort it out in the air.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

Barring a dual engine failure, isn't there a refusal speed that would be used preventing this kind if mishap? Like, if you abort faster than that speed you will go off the runway (with a cuple worst case scenario assumptions thrown in there)?

It's more like a "gut" feeling. On these fairly short, swampy, slushy runways. Sometimes, you just get the "feeling" the beast just doesn't want to fly. Some will pick a speed and "spot" that if things just aren't happening, they're going to call it a day. For example, with the 200, I know that if I can get 80 out of her, she'll fly with flap added into the equation. These guys had a hard decision to make in the blink of an eye.
Cheers
Illya

[oldtimer]

When the Bech 200 was first designed it was certified for up to 15 passengers. Most operators operated the airplane with 9 plus crew. With 13 plus the now required 2 crew, the airplane could be operated in the commuter category which would require both accelerate - stop and accelerate - go performance under FAR23 sFAR23 but the manufacturer was able to design the techniques used to achieve the performance. But if the airplane was restricted to a maximum of 9 passengers not counting crew (could be one pilot) it could be operated as an Air Taxi. All air taxi take-off performance was calculated with both engines operating so all that was published was Vr. In Canada, Air Taxi is CARS 703, Commuter Category is CARS 704. Read the requirements in CARS 523.

[Illya Kuryakin]

When the Bech 200 was first designed it was certified for up to 15 passengers. Most operators operated the airplane with 9 plus crew. With 13 plus the now required 2 crew, the airplane could be operated in the commuter category which would require both accelerate - stop and accelerate - go performance under FAR23 sFAR23 but the manufacturer was able to design the techniques used to achieve the performance. But if the airplane was restricted to a maximum of 9 passengers not counting crew (could be one pilot) it could be operated as an Air Taxi. All air taxi take-off performance was calculated with both engines operating so all that was published was Vr. In Canada, Air Taxi is CARS 703, Commuter Category is CARS 704. Read the requirements in CARS 523.

Nice. But it has absolutely no value on a wet, slushy, soft runway. None. If V1 is reached after you run out of runway, you can quote all the FARS you want......ain't gonna help.
Illya

[pelmet]

When the Bech 200 was first designed it was certified for up to 15 passengers. Most operators operated the airplane with 9 plus crew. With 13 plus the now required 2 crew, the airplane could be operated in the commuter category which would require both accelerate - stop and accelerate - go performance under FAR23 sFAR23 but the manufacturer was able to design the techniques used to achieve the performance. But if the airplane was restricted to a maximum of 9 passengers not counting crew (could be one pilot) it could be operated as an Air Taxi. All air taxi take-off performance was calculated with both engines operating so all that was published was Vr. In Canada, Air Taxi is CARS 703, Commuter Category is CARS 704. Read the requirements in CARS 523.

Nice. But it has absolutely no value on a wet, slushy, soft runway. None. If V1 is reached after you run out of runway, you can quote all the FARS you want......ain't gonna help.
Illya

What about quoting common sense like perhaps....not taking off on slushy, soft runways. Too bad the TSB feels that there is nothing to be learned from this. I suggest that if they are reading this thread(and I have seen a TSB Tasker guy post in this forum) that they take the time to investigate this. We now have a PM willing to throw huge amounts of money around. How about we use it for something useful. If it takes the TSB having to run out of money on various investigations to get their attention, then so be it. It is better than quietly cutting us short of accident investigations.

Are you listening Mrs. Fox?

[oldtimer]

Illya, I have to agree 100% the CARS is useless if pilots ignore them but this is one place you look to see what the requiements are for a CARS 703 airplane and then go to the AFM to calculate if the take-off can be completed safely. Many pilots do not do this.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Love to see the performance charts pertaining to operations in 2" of slush! Until then, thank you very much, I shall rely on my bag of "bush rat" tricks to keep me safe.
Illya

[fish4life]

I'm with Illya, the runways up north vary in softness with the season / how much rainfall they have had. You will see ruts more than 2 inches deep from aircraft up there, no charts are designed/ can account for soft mushy gravel/ clay mix.

[Yycaviator]

Who said anything about it going off the end? The article and statements say it left the runway after rejecting due to runway conditions. Negative castor or nose gear hard over... Who knows. A plane can leave a runway way before a go/ no go decision point.

[pelmet]

Love to see the performance charts pertaining to operations in 2" of slush! Until then, thank you very much, I shall rely on my bag of "bush rat" tricks to keep me safe.
Illya

Is one of the tricks not taking off in 2" of slush?

[Illya Kuryakin]

Love to see the performance charts pertaining to operations in 2" of slush! Until then, thank you very much, I shall rely on my bag of "bush rat" tricks to keep me safe.
Illya

Is one of the tricks not taking off in 2" of slush?

Don't get me wrong. I DO hear you. And, in theory, I agree with you. However, it's just not practicle. Most of these ops would have to shut down for several days at a time. The only answer is to train these Pilots when and how to do this safely.....l.and when to park it.
Illya