Soccer Team Charter Down in Columbia on flight from Bolivia to Medellin

[rippey]

Why does he need fuel for an alternate? Every major airline in this country is approved for no alternate IFR and use it on a regular basis. Dispatchers are actually expected to use it and tracked to ensure they do use it to ensure they aren't tankering unnecessary fuel. There are goals set ie 60% of all flights.

This is by no means a gesture of support for the decisions made in this clearly avoidable accident.

A single runway airport in mountainous terrain in the middle of rainy season would never satisfy the criteria for no alternate IFR. Landing can never be assured at an airport served by a single runway IMHO. I cannot fathom how anyone would dispatch on a flight where the only chance for a successful outcome was if everything went perfectly to plan. If it turns out fuel exhaustion was the cause we are taking margins so slim that the difference between landing and killing almost everyone on board was about 1 1/2 laps in the hold.

[Longtimer]

Colombia's CAA confirms that crashed Avro operated without mandatory fuel reserves01 December, 2016
| BY: Rainer Uphoff
| Madrid


Colombia’s Civil Aviation Authority has officially confirmed that the Bolivian BAe Avro RJ85 operated by Lamia crashed near Medellin with empty fuel tanks..

During a press conference held on 30 November, Aerocivil’s Secretary of Aviation Safety Freddy Bonilla assures that "the aircraft did not operate with the mandatory fuel reserves mandated by international regulations”.

He said that Lamia’s flight plan had established as the alternative airport Bogota, which is slightly less distant from de Santa Cruz (Bolivia) than Medellin, indicating, however, that “the aircraft had not loaded sufficient fuel for an eventual diversion back to the alternative airport, nor for the internationally established 35min fuel reserve”.

Bonilla also confirmed that the actual distance between Santa Cruz and Medellin on the route followed by the Lamia flight was 1,588nm. “We will investigate why Lamia authorised a flight, which [taking into account the mandatory reserves] was beyond the range of the aircraft [1,600 NM]”.

He also confirmed the authenticity of the ATC recording that had been filtered to FlightGlobal and some other media, but said that he could "not confirm if the recording was complete, resembling the exact timing of the sequence of events.”

“We are working with specialists from Bolivia, Brazil, the UK and the US to reach the final conclusions as soon as possible”, he concluded.

Previously, Bolivia’s Civil Aviation Authority DGAC had declared almost immediately after the accident that Lamia had its AOC in order, the aircraft maintenance record correct and both pilots' licenses up-to-date.

Incidentally, DGAC's director of aircraft registries, Gustavo Vargas Villegas, is the son of Lamia’s owner, Gustavo Vargas Gamboa. In addition to establishing any aircraft's operational specifications as part of the registry process, one of the attributions of Vargas Villegas’ role at the DGAC is the safe custody of all documents and informations related to any Bolivian registered aircraft involved in an incident or accident

[cncpc]

Or maybe they tried to used the "we have an electrical problem" to get priority landing so they wouldn't have to admit they were running out of fuel. I would think there would be less back lash if you had an electrical snag than having to admit you needed priority because you over flew a fuel stop and we're now experiencing fuel exhaustion.

Those were my thoughts as well.

I expect that if the true problem had been brought front and center, ATC may have changed the priority of the two emergencies, given that the obvious scenario with the 146 was impact with terrain if fuel ran out. Not sure what the fuel situation was on the other aircraft, or if it even was a fuel situation. I heard leak, and also something with a leak in the cabin.

[rippey]

There is a leaked flight plan floating around that showed an EET of 4:22 and endurance of 4:22, along with a transcript of an argument between someone from AIS (I think) and either a dispatcher or crew member from Lamia. It was in Spanish but loosely translated they were told the flight plan is bogus, send us a corrected one, and the operators response was its fine, don't worry about it - and getting increasingly heated about it

[FAD3C]

Why does he need fuel for an alternate? Every major airline in this country is approved for no alternate IFR and use it on a regular basis. Dispatchers are actually expected to use it and tracked to ensure they do use it to ensure they aren't tankering unnecessary fuel. There are goals set ie 60% of all flights.

This is by no means a gesture of support for the decisions made in this clearly avoidable accident.

Like another poster said, meeting the criteria for a No-Alt-IFR requires several things. From what I remember during my year dispatching 705 Ops here in Canada a while ago, weather has to meet strict criteria which I can't recall at the moment, but the time period extends well before the ETA to after by more than just an hour, the airport has to have two runways with two serviceable approaches, back-up power source in case of a blackout, and that's about what I remember from my recollections.
Given that the weather was not VMC in Medellin, single runway and extremely high terrain all around, a no alternate IFR is out of the question. Let alone they were operating in Colombia with a foreign registered airplane.

Another factor to take into account is that I believe the PIC was also the owner of the company!? This is not good when it comes to decision making as you will need a brave First Officer to stand up to him and say "no, this is wrong and I am not doing it" or "we have to divert, we are running out of fuel"
Who knows if they had SOPs and if they include checking fuel against the OFP. Anyone have the link to the OFP? I can read Spanish.
Finally, I think I agree with xsbank's comment.
Very sad all in all.

[Ki-ll]

Why does he need fuel for an alternate? Every major airline in this country is approved for no alternate IFR and use it on a regular basis. Dispatchers are actually expected to use it and tracked to ensure they do use it to ensure they aren't tankering unnecessary fuel. There are goals set ie 60% of all flights.

This is by no means a gesture of support for the decisions made in this clearly avoidable accident.

Like another poster said, meeting the criteria for a No-Alt-IFR requires several things. From what I remember during my year dispatching 705 Ops here in Canada a while ago, weather has to meet strict criteria which I can't recall at the moment, but the time period extends well before the ETA to after by more than just an hour, the airport has to have two runways with two serviceable approaches, back-up power source in case of a blackout, and that's about what I remember from my recollections.
Given that the weather was not VMC in Medellin, single runway and extremely high terrain all around, a no alternate IFR is out of the question. Let alone they were operating in Colombia with a foreign registered airplane.

Another factor to take into account is that I believe the PIC was also the owner of the company!? This is not good when it comes to decision making as you will need a brave First Officer to stand up to him and say "no, this is wrong and I am not doing it" or "we have to divert, we are running out of fuel"
Who knows if they had SOPs and if they include checking fuel against the OFP. Anyone have the link to the OFP? I can read Spanish.
Finally, I think I agree with xsbank's comment.
Very sad all in all.

Also, if I remember correctly Latin American mentality is very top centered and authority oriented, it would be interesting to see who the copilot was on that flight.

[cncpc]

Another factor to take into account is that I believe the PIC was also the owner of the company!? This is not good when it comes to decision making as you will need a brave First Officer to stand up to him and say "no, this is wrong and I am not doing it" or "we have to divert, we are running out of fuel"
Who knows if they had SOPs and if they include checking fuel against the OFP. Anyone have the link to the OFP? I can read Spanish.
Finally, I think I agree with xsbank's comment.
Very sad all in all.

It's OK in 703 world, but in 705, even some 704, having the owner fly the line has the potential for unnecessary risk.

I was consultant to the victim's lawyers at the inquest in this one. The owner had 350 hours and had failed two rides, one for his multi and one for his PPC on the Beech 18. They still gave him the paperwork. He overruled the CP, and took his first commercial flight. It ended up a burnt out wreck on the runway at Port Hardy. Wayne had 350 hours total time, 20 hours multi, and he was flying an overloaded Beech 18. It says overloading, but the truth was Wayne flew up on the front mains, used up almost all of those tanks, didn't switch before takeoff, and didn't handle it when the left engine went dry first.

I was part owner and president of a 704 (back in the day, Class 3 Group C) I was more experienced than most of the pilots, but I never flew a minute. A pilot owes his crew and passengers 100% of his attention for the entire time he is on duty. Not 99% or 30%. You can't do that if you are wondering if the cheque you wrote to the fueler 15 minutes before departure will cash, or if Air Canada is going to sign that interline agreement, or if payroll can be made on Friday. Nobody shuts that stuff off when you sit in the left front seat. Nobody.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid= ... 3181&hl=en

[Hockaloogie]

Interesting. It must be incredibly dangerous to take Buffalo's sked to Hay River.

[cncpc]

Interesting. It must be incredibly dangerous to take Buffalo's sked to Hay River.

I didn't know you posted on AvCanada, Joe?

[pelmet]

I was consultant to the victim's lawyers at the inquest in this one. The owner had 350 hours and had failed two rides, one for his multi and one for his PPC on the Beech 18. They still gave him the paperwork. He overruled the CP, and took his first commercial flight. It ended up a burnt out wreck on the runway at Port Hardy. Wayne had 350 hours total time, 20 hours multi, and he was flying an overloaded Beech 18. It says overloading, but the truth was Wayne flew up on the front mains, used up almost all of those tanks, didn't switch before takeoff, and didn't handle it when the left engine went dry first.

Wait a minute. I remember this accident very clearly as it was national news. And I read the accident report(a long time ago). You are saying that the TSB(or CASB) came to the wrong conclusion. What is your evidence and how did you come across it?

[anofly]

i actually thought Joe was no longer the "responsible executive?" or was it he was no longer flying the shed? who knows whats up out there? we need an "Ice Pilots " update.... mikey? pm?

[cncpc]

I was consultant to the victim's lawyers at the inquest in this one. The owner had 350 hours and had failed two rides, one for his multi and one for his PPC on the Beech 18. They still gave him the paperwork. He overruled the CP, and took his first commercial flight. It ended up a burnt out wreck on the runway at Port Hardy. Wayne had 350 hours total time, 20 hours multi, and he was flying an overloaded Beech 18. It says overloading, but the truth was Wayne flew up on the front mains, used up almost all of those tanks, didn't switch before takeoff, and didn't handle it when the left engine went dry first.

Wait a minute. I remember this accident very clearly as it was national news. And I read the accident report(a long time ago). You are saying that the TSB(or CASB) came to the wrong conclusion. What is your evidence and how did you come across it?

I will gladly provide that information if a poster with any degree of credibility asks for it.

That wouldn't be you.

[cncpc]

i actually thought Joe was no longer the "responsible executive?" or was it he was no longer flying the shed? who knows whats up out there? we need an "Ice Pilots " update.... mikey? pm?

Yes, something like that.

I can't say more, I have a chihuahua yapping at my arse right now.

[medi-whacked]

Yet another possible factor..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... k-off.html

Haunting footage has emerged of an interview with a beautiful young co-pilot - hours before she was killed in the Colombia plane crash.

Sisy Arias, who was on her first flight as a civilian co-pilot, was speaking moments before the jet took off from Bolivia.

Sitting in the cockpit of the plane, the 29-year-old, who is well known as a model in Colombia, told of her pride at transporting the Brazilian football team Chapecoense to their Copa Sudamericana final in Medellin.

But just hours later, the flight ended in tragedy when the plane smashed into a mountainside killing 71 on board and leaving just six survivors. .......

The co - pilot was on her first flight..one would have to wonder how assertive she was when it came to questioning the Captains ( supposed airline owner ) about the fuel decisions.

[Cobra64]

Yet another possible factor..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... k-off.html

Haunting footage has emerged of an interview with a beautiful young co-pilot - hours before she was killed in the Colombia plane crash.

Sisy Arias, who was on her first flight as a civilian co-pilot, was speaking moments before the jet took off from Bolivia.

Sitting in the cockpit of the plane, the 29-year-old, who is well known as a model in Colombia, told of her pride at transporting the Brazilian football team Chapecoense to their Copa Sudamericana final in Medellin.

But just hours later, the flight ended in tragedy when the plane smashed into a mountainside killing 71 on board and leaving just six survivors. .......

The co - pilot was on her first flight..one would have to wonder how assertive she was when it came to questioning the Captains ( supposed airline owner ) about the fuel decisions.

Um... here is the audio ATC, there is no female https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ab5x_C-CFg

[armchair]

Why does he need fuel for an alternate? Every major airline in this country is approved for no alternate IFR and use it on a regular basis. Dispatchers are actually expected to use it and tracked to ensure they do use it to ensure they aren't tankering unnecessary fuel. There are goals set ie 60% of all flights.

This is by no means a gesture of support for the decisions made in this clearly avoidable accident.

Like another poster said, meeting the criteria for a No-Alt-IFR requires several things. From what I remember during my year dispatching 705 Ops here in Canada a while ago, weather has to meet strict criteria which I can't recall at the moment, but the time period extends well before the ETA to after by more than just an hour, the airport has to have two runways with two serviceable approaches, back-up power source in case of a blackout, and that's about what I remember from my recollections.
Given that the weather was not VMC in Medellin, single runway and extremely high terrain all around, a no alternate IFR is out of the question. Let alone they were operating in Colombia with a foreign registered airplane.

Another factor to take into account is that I believe the PIC was also the owner of the company!? This is not good when it comes to decision making as you will need a brave First Officer to stand up to him and say "no, this is wrong and I am not doing it" or "we have to divert, we are running out of fuel"
Who knows if they had SOPs and if they include checking fuel against the OFP. Anyone have the link to the OFP? I can read Spanish.
Finally, I think I agree with xsbank's comment.
Very sad all in all.

Also, if I remember correctly Latin American mentality is very top centered and authority oriented, it would be interesting to see who the copilot was on that flight.

Bang on! This human factor (pilot-owner pressure) is not new and reminds me of the Diamond DA40 which crashed in Maine a few years ago. It was flown by the pilot-owner/co-pilot, a rich developer from Toronto, who was acting as "co-pilot" to his hired professional PIC. The hired PIC was in fact unable to overrule the boss in stopping him to making it back to Halifax in bad weather, and they crashed in heavy icing and IMC. This is a smaller lesser-known accident, but nevertheless with a similar cause factor. In this Columbia crash, it appears the BA146 was fine, and that the owner-pilot gambled due to heavy pressure to bring the team in and killed them all (or most...). See "Diamond in the Rough" in ASL 4/2013 at http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... ml#diamond for a resume of the Maine crash. The editorial comment at the ends says:

Food for thought
While the report goes over the weather aspects in length, it does not explore the fine line of authority between the hired PIC and the owner pilot-rated passenger. Such an arrangement is actually not uncommon, but can be challenging and prone to additional stress. Even though the report states that they worked as a crew, the flight remained the sole responsibility of the PIC. A PIC flying with his or her boss as unofficial co-pilot, in the boss’s own airplane, may be placed in a very uncomfortable, pressure-filled position when discussing difficult weather conditions and making the go or no-go decision. Critical decision-making comes into play, particularly on the part of the PIC, but also from the owner/passenger. This report is worth a second read-through, particularly for anyone out there who faces such a situation, either as a hired PIC, or as an aircraft owner who delegates the PIC duties to someone else.

[bigsky]

Yet another possible factor..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... k-off.html

Haunting footage has emerged of an interview with a beautiful young co-pilot - hours before she was killed in the Colombia plane crash.

Sisy Arias, who was on her first flight as a civilian co-pilot, was speaking moments before the jet took off from Bolivia.

Sitting in the cockpit of the plane, the 29-year-old, who is well known as a model in Colombia, told of her pride at transporting the Brazilian football team Chapecoense to their Copa Sudamericana final in Medellin.
Maybe the Captain was doing all the task, flying and talking. No CRM!

But just hours later, the flight ended in tragedy when the plane smashed into a mountainside killing 71 on board and leaving just six survivors. .......

The co - pilot was on her first flight..one would have to wonder how assertive she was when it came to questioning the Captains ( supposed airline owner ) about the fuel decisions.

Um... here is the audio ATC, there is no female https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ab5x_C-CFg

Maybe the Captain was doing the flying and the radio work. No CRM!

[Mick G]

Interesting. It must be incredibly dangerous to take Buffalo's sked to Hay River.

I do remember an episode where he had a license suspension for landing below minimums. Hard to say if being the owner influenced the decision to land?

[FAD3C]

Yet another possible factor..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... k-off.html

Haunting footage has emerged of an interview with a beautiful young co-pilot - hours before she was killed in the Colombia plane crash.

Sisy Arias, who was on her first flight as a civilian co-pilot, was speaking moments before the jet took off from Bolivia.

Sitting in the cockpit of the plane, the 29-year-old, who is well known as a model in Colombia, told of her pride at transporting the Brazilian football team Chapecoense to their Copa Sudamericana final in Medellin.
Maybe the Captain was doing all the task, flying and talking. No CRM!

But just hours later, the flight ended in tragedy when the plane smashed into a mountainside killing 71 on board and leaving just six survivors. .......

The co - pilot was on her first flight..one would have to wonder how assertive she was when it came to questioning the Captains ( supposed airline owner ) about the fuel decisions.

Um... here is the audio ATC, there is no female https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ab5x_C-CFg

Maybe the Captain was doing the flying and the radio work. No CRM!

In one of the videos we can see another first officer as well. In South America some airlines bring the new first officers on board to do ride alongs in the jumpseat. Does the 146 have a jumpseat in the cockpit? Maybe she was going as a jumpseater.

[Hockaloogie]

I didn't know you posted on AvCanada, Joe?

Don't be silly, I am not Joe.

Regardless of the current situation at Buffalo, is it your opinion that Joe should not have been flying that route for all those years because he owned the company?

[cncpc]

I didn't know you posted on AvCanada, Joe?

Don't be silly, I am not Joe.

Regardless of the current situation at Buffalo, is it your opinion that Joe should not have been flying that route for all those years because he owned the company?

I don't have an opinion on that. If I did, I wouldn't make an idiotic claim that it was "...incredibly dangerous". The elastic band isn't wound that tight around my scrotum, or at all.

I take it you are an owner flying the line? You seem to have an interest in disputing the fact that when an owner in an operation of some size and complexity flies the line, a hole can open in the Swiss cheese. The fact you made up some story that I said this was "...incredibly dangerous" makes me think my point hits too close to home.

[rippey]

To answer another post the female interviewed was the not the f/o - she was a non-type rated pilot, some sources say ppl, others say FAA cpl who was along as an observer and likely in the jumpseat, although who knows what went on during the course of the flight. From the atc recording it sounds like she was not in either front seat at the time of the accident.

[Hockaloogie]

I don't have an opinion on that.

Sure you do. You just finishing stating, most emphatically, that NOBODY can put aside business concerns while occupying the left seat of their own aircraft. I gave you a well known example of SOMEBODY who has been doing it rather successfully for a very long time.

There are scads of business owners operating their own aircraft all over this great land, and I don't see them crashing with great regularity.

It's good, though, that you acknowledge your own deficiency in this regard. Thank you for contributing to aviation safety in Canada.

[cncpc]

I don't have an opinion on that.

Sure you do. You just finishing stating, most emphatically, that NOBODY can put aside business concerns while occupying the left seat of their own aircraft. I gave you a well known example of SOMEBODY who has been doing it rather successfully for a very long time.

There are scads of business owners operating their own aircraft all over this great land, and I don't see them crashing with great regularity.

It's good, though, that you acknowledge your own deficiency in this regard. Thank you for contributing to aviation safety in Canada.

This business owner did crash. Others have. What business owners do has been the result of many aircraft accidents here and around the world. The aircraft crew can be the last line of defence against what poor owners would otherwise do. In the case, which is the subject of this thread, as opposed to your hurt widdle feelings, that system broke down because the owner got into the seat.

I have made my point. There is no deficiency in it. Obviously. People all all over the world have been talking about this owner flying. You are the only one using capital letters and lying about what I said amongst all of those people.

[Gear Jerker]

I don't have an opinion on that.

Sure you do. You just finishing stating, most emphatically, that NOBODY can put aside business concerns while occupying the left seat of their own aircraft. I gave you a well known example of SOMEBODY who has been doing it rather successfully for a very long time.

There are scads of business owners operating their own aircraft all over this great land, and I don't see them crashing with great regularity.

It's good, though, that you acknowledge your own deficiency in this regard. Thank you for contributing to aviation safety in Canada.

I bet you do, actually. It doesn't necessarily make national headlines when a little 702/703 has an accident, but they certainly happen. As a recent example, the Atlantic Charters Navajo is a textbook case of an owner/captain making reckless, dangerous decisions and having it catch up with them.

I'm assuming the majority on this site have been doing this for a while; I'll therefore assume that we all know people or places like this, and god forbid if a tragedy does occur one day, unfortunately it won't surprise us that much. Not all accidents/incidents make it into CADORs, let alone TSB, national news, etc.

cncpc I admire the fact that you separate yourself from line flying as an owner, and mitigate that inherent risk.

What a sickening "accident". RIP