Canada Set to Pick Airbus Over Leonardo for Rescue Planes

[Woxof38]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... e-contract


Airbus Group SE was selected by the Canadian government to replace its search-and-rescue planes, beating out Leonardo-Finmeccanica SpA in a deal estimated by the previous government at C$3.4 billion ($2.6 billion), according to people familiar with the situation.
.
Embraer SA also bid for the contract, but the race was said to have narrowed to Airbus’s C295 and the C-27J Spartan, produced by a Leonardo-led consortium, because Canada’s government didn’t amend its procurement process to accommodate Embraer’s production schedule.
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[dhc#]

Another news link to the story. Whats interesting will be the final number of actual aircraft built for the contract, that has not been specified.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canad ... -as-winner

[Heliian]

Good choice.

Hopefully I can get a used buffalo cheap when they retire them. One of my favourite aircraft, IMO the most under acknowledged plane ever. Put that badboy on floats.

[plhought]

Look, I get the C-27J is an expensive, relatively poorly supported airframe....but it's gotta be so much more capable then the C-295.

I'd be really disappointed if they chose the C-295.

Maybe bolt a couple PW150s on it and I'd be a decent machine, but in my eyes it's just a hopped-up-mish-mash of a clapped-out ATR and -235, with poorer performance than the 40+year old DHC-5, less HP, no true STOL capability, old technology (sorry, PW12x series engines are 30 year old stuff), and without the tactical and operational flexibility of commonality with the J-model Hercs.

Might as well just buy some used Dash-8s with air-operable cargo door for a tenth of the price and you have a better machine than the C-295.

[Rockie]

I don't know anything about the plane but it's fantastic news that the decision has finally been made.

[goingnowherefast]

I was hoping for the Buffalo with PW150s. Viking offered to make a couple for the military. Unfortunately it's still not pressurized, and those engines would be just above idle while the airframe is at barber pole.

The C295 is leaps ahead of the Buffalo in terms of capabilities and performance. I know which one I'd rather have come to find me in the bushes. DHC-5 flying along in the ice, bumps and crap weather or the C295 in the flight levels above it all.

[Gannet167]

Terrible decision. Completely incapable plane. SAR techs can't even stand up straight in it. No room for the standard SAR kit load. No capacity to carry extra. No range. The manufacturer's proposal was based on building numerous bases all over the arctic to support it and give it the ability to reach SAR sites. RCAF can't even staff it's current bases, let alone spend billions building new ones and staffing them so this 700 nm pipsqueak of an airplane can operate out of. We bought a single cab 2 wheel drive, 4 cyl Ford Ranger; when we needed an F-350 crew cab 4x4.

A J Model could transit way out to sea or far up north, loiter for hours, drop 10,000 lbs of life rafts, SAR techs, flares, medical supplies, etc etc etc then come home on bingo fuel. This little toy is a joke.

Keep in mind that after closing the base in Calgary and moving the SAR Sqn from Namao in Edmonton, basically the entire Western part of the country is served by Winnipeg and Comox. Winnipeg and Trenton basically cover the arctic and much of the east of the country. This is all done with Hercs carrying a standard SAR load of 10,000 lbs of kit and fuel to spare. That capability lets the crew get on scene, hold for hours and keep several viable alternates. Generally the crew is doing this when the weather is beyond awful and having options translates into an ability to save lives.

This is a downgrade in capability and, IMHO, will result in less lives saved.

[Gannet167]

I hope we got a hell of a good deal. The next time the SAR Sqns are sent to evacuate people up north from forest fires etc, maybe they can send several dozen C-295s, rather than one Herc.

H Model Herc:


C-295:


C-130:


C-295:

[Nark]

Fantastic. Good on you guys for getting something. Long time overdue.

Gannet167: the Herc and C295/C27J are different classes.

You're comparison is like a C130 to a C17. Different missions.

[Gannet167]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fixed-w ... -1.3885653

"The military has to know and has to be told" on this project and other that their job is to define requirements for equipment needs and it's the government's job to hold an open, fair tender and pick the winner, he said. "And that's it."

Commenting on the issue of new fighter planes, he said, "I have no doubt the air force wants the F-35. I can understand that. I have no doubt the air force wanted the C-27J. I can understand that, too.

"But that's why it's incumbent on the assistant deputy minister of material, the deputy minister and the minister to safeguard the process and protect the military — actually — from themselves."

I think the public needs to be protected from the totally ineffective procurement system that has utterly failed at every single purchase of military equipment it has embarked on - right down to buying new flight suits and boots - going back to and well beyond the EH-101. Until the public takes the role the CF does seriously, the government will continue to treat it was a political process, engineered theatrics rather than what is actually in the country's interests.

I hope the people who made this decision and their families never find themselves in peril off shore in a storm or stranded in the wilderness and one of these toy airplanes, doing 4 fuel stops, has to slowly trundle out to save them with very limited kit onbaord. I hope they never have to think about the 'policy' or 'procedure' of this procurement while they watch loved ones pass away in the bush.

In that situation, a person might really wonder why the Air Force wanted a different plane - maybe they know what they're talking about as the subject matter experts in these operations - far more than some committee of bureaucrats reading shiny brochures with alleged performance numbers. Why the hell wouldn't you want to buy what the Air Force wants if they're the people coming to save your life?

[Gannet167]

Fantastic. Good on you guys for getting something. Long time overdue.

Gannet167: the Herc and C295/C27J are different classes.

You're comparison is like a C130 to a C17. Different missions.

Totally agree, and the class the 295 is in, is not the right class for the SAR work done in the second largest country in the world with some of the harshest weather and limited airfield quantity and quality. You're right, we were comparing station wagons when we should have been looking at one ton trucks.

The J was for some reason not even in the running. I'm not a SAR guy. But close friends of mine who have a good deal of experience in the business can quote specific missions where the H model got the job done and a 295 would not be able. That's a shame. We replaced some of the oldest Hercs still flying in the world with .... less capable airplanes. Yep in a different class. The wrong class.

[teacher]

The J Herc was not offered due to the "lowest cost compliant" clause in the contact.

From F-5s, used subs, Griffins, super hornets and SAR planes. Canada has a history of having our military request a certain piece of equipment for it capabilities and getting something else less capable. Imagine having paid experts on staff only to ignore their advice.

Welcome to Canadian military procurement

[fish4life]

On the plus side a SAR base in the arctic is desperately needed so hopefully that will come with it.

[rigpiggy]

Mthe problem is the rfp gets written for the winner, not the one most capable of the mission. Lockheed was looking at a C130X ie short body J without all the fancy dancy cargo loading crap. Around 30% cheaper as I recall. Now we need to buy sims"CAE anyone"engines, and a whole new supply line. But that is alright because PWC will get to sell them the engines. Quebec screws the rest of Canada again

[cncpc]

Good choice.

Hopefully I can get a used buffalo cheap when they retire them. One of my favourite aircraft, IMO the most under acknowledged plane ever. Put that badboy on floats.

I saw one perform at that Twin Lakes strip out west of Williams Lake. Awesome capability.

[Rockie]

Good choice.

Hopefully I can get a used buffalo cheap when they retire them. One of my favourite aircraft, IMO the most under acknowledged plane ever. Put that badboy on floats.

I saw one perform at that Twin Lakes strip out west of Williams Lake. Awesome capability.

That's funny, I did too many years ago when an American crashed there. Impressive to watch.

[Heliian]

Terrible decision. Completely incapable plane. SAR techs can't even stand up straight in it. No room for the standard SAR kit load. No capacity to carry extra. No range. The manufacturer's proposal was based on building numerous bases all over the arctic to support it and give it the ability to reach SAR sites. RCAF can't even staff it's current bases, let alone spend billions building new ones and staffing them so this 700 nm pipsqueak of an airplane can operate out of. We bought a single cab 2 wheel drive, 4 cyl Ford Ranger; when we needed an F-350 crew cab 4x4.

A J Model could transit way out to sea or far up north, loiter for hours, drop 10,000 lbs of life rafts, SAR techs, flares, medical supplies, etc etc etc then come home on bingo fuel. This little toy is a joke.

Keep in mind that after closing the base in Calgary and moving the SAR Sqn from Namao in Edmonton, basically the entire Western part of the country is served by Winnipeg and Comox. Winnipeg and Trenton basically cover the arctic and much of the east of the country. This is all done with Hercs carrying a standard SAR load of 10,000 lbs of kit and fuel to spare. That capability lets the crew get on scene, hold for hours and keep several viable alternates. Generally the crew is doing this when the weather is beyond awful and having options translates into an ability to save lives.

This is a downgrade in capability and, IMHO, will result in less lives saved.

These are a replacement for the buffalo. Other than the super STOL capabilities of the buffalo, the 295 outperforms it in all aspects. I can't stand up in a buffalo either.

[dhc#]

Just announced, Airbus C295W wins the competition, total of 16 aircraft operating from the same four SAR bases as before....no arctic SAR base...wonder how long it will take a C295 based in southern Canada to respond to a high arctic SAR, as its not as fast as a C27 or Herc...

Am sure EIC shares will up since they own PAL who is involved with Airbus on this contract....Liberal supporters ???

[sstaurus]

So for the uneducated, why were new Buffaloes rejected? Just lack of pressurization and new engines?

And will the existing Hercs still fly or is this Airbus supposed to replace both?

[Heliian]

And will the existing Hercs still fly or is this Airbus supposed to replace both?

cc-130 replaced by cc-130J just a few years ago.

The C-295 is replacing the Buffalo and some of the old hercs which have been a PITA to maintain (recall the museum part shennanigans). The C-295 range is less than a 130 but still can reach a massive chunk when based at the 4 locations.

[DashFiveGuy]

These are a replacement for the buffalo. Other than the super STOL capabilities of the buffalo, the 295 outperforms it in all aspects. I can't stand up in a buffalo either.

These are NOT a replacement for just the Buffalo, they will be replacing more C-130's than DHC-5's.

You must be pretty tall if you can't stand up in a Buffalo. Height from the floor to the bottom of the center wing box is 78" the height in the rest of the cabin area is 82". I'm 6'3" and have no problems with clearance even in my boots and helmet.

When the C-295 toured the Canadian SAR bases several years ago the one common complaint from virtually everyone that stepped on board was that the cabin height was way too short and that no one but the most vertically challenged SAR Techs and FE's are able to stand up in it. Going to make their jobs a lot more difficult and uncomfortable and therefore fatiguing.

Just another purely political buy, par for the course.

[DashFiveGuy]

So for the uneducated, why were new Buffaloes rejected? Just lack of pressurization and new engines?

And will the existing Hercs still fly or is this Airbus supposed to replace both?

One of the requirements for the new FWSAR aircraft was that it had be be certified by the time of the contract award. Viking's proposal exists only on paper so it didn't meet the requirement.

The C-295 will be replacing all 6 remaining Buffalo's and the C-130 currently used for SAR.

[dhc#]

More on the maintenance side of the contract.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/ ... -1.3887140

[groundpilot]

Good choice.

Hopefully I can get a used buffalo cheap when they retire them. One of my favourite aircraft, IMO the most under acknowledged plane ever. Put that badboy on floats.

I saw one perform at that Twin Lakes strip out west of Williams Lake. Awesome capability.

Out of curiosity - when was that?

[Rockie]

Good choice.

Hopefully I can get a used buffalo cheap when they retire them. One of my favourite aircraft, IMO the most under acknowledged plane ever. Put that badboy on floats.

I saw one perform at that Twin Lakes strip out west of Williams Lake. Awesome capability.

Out of curiosity - when was that?

1981 or 82. It was a tripacer grossly overloaded with 4 large adults in it. They took off southbound and settled into the water off the end. The pilot died swimming to shore, and while the Buf took the survivors to YWL we transported the deceased.