Springbank to Kalispell (Whitefish)...looking for some guidance!

[PilotPenner]

Merry Christmas, everyone!

A friend and I are planning to fly down to Whitefish, MT on Wednesday this week, and I'm looking for suggestions on where and how to cross the Rockies. I've looked at the route that goes through Banff, past Lake Louise and to Golden, which seems alright (weather permitting). I've also looked at going down south to Pincher Creek and heading west through Crowsnest Pass. Additionally, I've looked at a route from near Browning, MT to Kalispell. The problem is the altitude and possibility of snow. We'll be flying in a Cessna 150 (small, but it's in great condition), but we're both very light so, even with full fuel, we'll be well below gross at about 1,522 lbs. I do have some mountain flying training, but not a lot of experience flying in them. Any suggestions on which route we should take, from someone who's flown them?

Thanks in advance!

Alex Penner

[oldtimer]

Done the trip many times when I worked out of Lethbridge and Pincher Creek. The Banff, Golden route is the longest but the valleys are the widest except near Field. Pincher Creek to Kalispell is the shortest but also requires the highest flight altitude but is a good route in good weather. Stay away from Pincher Creek/direct Kalispell if the winds on the surface and at altitude are 30+ knots due to turbulance. Pincher Creek direct takes you over Waterton Park/Glacier Park and the scenery is spectacular but you have to get to 10,500 to appreciate the view so weather has to be high to mid level clouds. Another route is to Cut Bank, then south west to follow the Sunshine Highway route to Kalispell. Pincher Creek to Fernie and into the Columbia valley and then south to Kalispell can be done at 6500 feet and is a safe route, There are only 2 problem aras. Pincher Creek to Blaremore in the wind because of turbulance and down drafts. Then there is a tight squees just below Fernie where the highway turns from south to west and you exit the high rocks but the Flathead valley is wide enough that you can swing to the east wide enough to look through the gap and see the open valley to the west. I have taken lowtimers into the gap in a Cessna 177 and turned around. It is intimidating but it can be done. If it is open, go for it because the valley is wide enough to allow you to chicken out. Once through the narrow gap, (about 2 miles), you are home free all the way to Kalispell. I would look at the Waterto route and if that is not comfortable, go north the Pincher and follow HWY 3 to the Columbia valley. Just remember that the Cesspool One Filthy is a VFR only airplane and you will be operating near it's limit of performance but it can be done. If you go where the weather is OK and do not go where the weather in not OK, you will be OK.

[ahramin]

I flew my 150 across the rocks a few times. It's fine in good weather, especially at that weight.

It's all about the weather. If the weather is perfect I would definitely go the shorter route through the Crowsnest as there is zero point going the long way. If the weather isn't perfect, I'd go whichever route has the best weather.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I've done it a few times, and have always used the cut bank route. I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to the weather on that particular route. I've waited days for nice weather before, but if it's nice, the scenery is awesome!

[PilotPenner]

Done the trip many times when I worked out of Lethbridge and Pincher Creek. The Banff, Golden route is the longest but the valleys are the widest except near Field. Pincher Creek to Kalispell is the shortest but also requires the highest flight altitude but is a good route in good weather. Stay away from Pincher Creek/direct Kalispell if the winds on the surface and at altitude are 30+ knots due to turbulance. Pincher Creek direct takes you over Waterton Park/Glacier Park and the scenery is spectacular but you have to get to 10,500 to appreciate the view so weather has to be high to mid level clouds. Another route is to Cut Bank, then south west to follow the Sunshine Highway route to Kalispell. Pincher Creek to Fernie and into the Columbia valley and then south to Kalispell can be done at 6500 feet and is a safe route, There are only 2 problem aras. Pincher Creek to Blaremore in the wind because of turbulance and down drafts. Then there is a tight squees just below Fernie where the highway turns from south to west and you exit the high rocks but the Flathead valley is wide enough that you can swing to the east wide enough to look through the gap and see the open valley to the west. I have taken lowtimers into the gap in a Cessna 177 and turned around. It is intimidating but it can be done. If it is open, go for it because the valley is wide enough to allow you to chicken out. Once through the narrow gap, (about 2 miles), you are home free all the way to Kalispell. I would look at the Waterto route and if that is not comfortable, go north the Pincher and follow HWY 3 to the Columbia valley. Just remember that the Cesspool One Filthy is a VFR only airplane and you will be operating near it's limit of performance but it can be done. If you go where the weather is OK and do not go where the weather in not OK, you will be OK.

Thanks so much for the route recommendations! I've had a look at all the routes and the Crowsnest Pass and Cut Bank routes look the most promising. I've found Google Earth to be invaluable in my planning. As for the narrow gap heading into the Columbia Valley, south of Fernie, I plan to be basically as high as my plan will fly on the day of the flight, which I'm guessing is 8,500. Should be no problem for that tight squeeze then, I'm assuming? It looks decent on Google Earth, but I do see what you're talking about and how it can be intimidating. As for the turbulence between Pincher Creek and Blairmore, can I expect moderate or less than moderate? I know some turbulence is to be expected anytime one is flying in the mountains, but I'm concerned about whether or not my passenger will be able to handle it. She was able to handle steep turns and zero gravity last time we flew, so I'm guessing she can handle a bit of light-moderate turbulence, maybe not full moderate though. Oh also, for the Waterton Lakes route, I found one ridge-crossing that looks a bit too sketchy for my 150, so I likely won't try that route.

I flew my 150 across the rocks a few times. It's fine in good weather, especially at that weight.

It's all about the weather. If the weather is perfect I would definitely go the shorter route through the Crowsnest as there is zero point going the long way. If the weather isn't perfect, I'd go whichever route has the best weather.

Crowsnest is what I'm hoping for, but looking at the forecast, the Cut Bank route might be our best bet. Hoping for the forecast to improve though as none of the routes are looking very good for this week!

I've done it a few times, and have always used the cut bank route. I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to the weather on that particular route. I've waited days for nice weather before, but if it's nice, the scenery is awesome!

What would you consider nice weather flying that route? Bluebird day, clear skies and no precip in the forecast? Or would you go with high level clouds?

[BGH]

Although I haven't flown to Kalespel,I have flown from Pitt Meadows to Winnipeg many times so I'm familiar with the area around Fernie.
Pick airports along your route that you can use if needed to verify the minimum altitude needed in that sector of your route & add at least 1000' to that height as your absolute minimum flight altitude.
High winds from the west can overcome your climb ,or even holding altitude ability,I almost turned around at Fernie in a lightly loaded 185 one time because of the downdraft,suggest less than 10 knots for the 150.
If the weather is reasonable. It will be a beautiful flight with amazing scenery.
Watch the weather like a hawk.

Daryl

[PilotPenner]

Although I haven't flown to Kalespel,I have flown from Pitt Meadows to Winnipeg many times so I'm familiar with the area around Fernie.
Pick airports along your route that you can use if needed to verify the minimum altitude needed in that sector of your route & add at least 1000' to that height as your absolute minimum flight altitude.
High winds from the west can overcome your climb ,or even holding altitude ability,I almost turned around at Fernie in a lightly loaded 185 one time because of the downdraft,suggest less than 10 knots for the 150.
If the weather is reasonable. It will be a beautiful flight with amazing scenery.
Watch the weather like a hawk.

Daryl

Thanks for the suggestions, mountain flying is always a learning experience, especially for me as I don't have a lot of experience in the mountains. We'll probably head down to Great Falls if the weather isn't good in the mountains.

[Rookie50]

I have flown to Kalispell. As others have said, weather is crucial for the crossing and especially upper winds. With light winds its unspeakable joy and beauty, strong upper winds can result in moderate + turbulance and even sustained downdrafts. I'd be cautious with 9000 winds over 20 knots. Maybe less in a 150. Check pireps, before going and before the crossing with ATC, if you can.

I've had both experiences -- valley flying with peaks higher than me, and not a ripple of turbulence, and being 3000 feet above all terrain with continuous moderate for a short time. All about winds.

I'm sure you know, but do not fly near the center of any (narrow) valley, but with your wing right on the right side (common for traffic) gives you maximum turnaround radius. If winds are strong, fly on the downwind side of the valley -- the air will then provide an updraft not downdraft.

In summer mornings are obviously far better, too, but I'd imagine winds are generally lighter in mornings all year.

[cncpc]

Unless you have perfect weather across the border, the place you can be assured of getting Customs will be the real determinant of your route. I don't think there is US Customs at Whitefish. There is at Cut Bank.

[PilotPenner]

Unless you have perfect weather across the border, the place you can be assured of getting Customs will be the real determinant of your route. I don't think there is US Customs at Whitefish. There is at Cut Bank.

Kalispell is a Port of Entry.

https://www.cbp.gov/contact/ports/kalispell-airport-mt

[cncpc]

Yes, Kalispell is, but they're going to Whitefish. Not a lot of difference in it, though.

I weather is not that good, I'd recommend getting into the US and through Customs at the closest possible point. Then you are in the US and can land wherever you want. Those options are best available south of Cardson area at one of those on the border crossings which has customs. It looks like Del Bonita Whetstone, right on the border is both a US and Canada customs airport of entry. Go there, over all flat land, clear customs, and go where you please. If the weather doesn't work, land and go for coffee. You can't do that if you cross and start wandering around in mountain weather hoping to get to your US port of entry south of the border.

Good advice on upper winds here. I agree that less than 20 kts forecast at 9000 is a good rule. However you're not going to be at 9000 so actual reports from airports in valley routes are also helpful. So would knowing where you are starting.

You don't go Lake Louise to Golden for your plan. There is a cutoff to Radium that is a bit shorter, plus you have Radium Fairmont, Cranbrook, and Elko along the route if you need to stop. If you're starting from Calgary. If so, and you have good weather and suitable winds, then Crowsnest, follow the highway to Elko, come up to the border, look down the valley, if you're good for the next 50 miles, clear in Kalispell, and you're good to go.

[cncpc]

If you want to do this right and learn safely, make contact with a BC pilot on here experienced in that area and ask him to work it though with you pre flight. The best guy is likely Iflyforpie. He's at Radium, or was, and he'd be the real thing as far as that bit of land goes. I'm in the Territories, but I'm a BC pilot with a good bit of experience on bugs and fire patrol right around there, and there may be others on here with experience in the area.

Or, you can just say" This is my flight plan. I want to leave in three hours, two hours, whatever." You should get some very helpful advice then. At the end of the day, it's the conditions when you are about to fly that determine your decisions. You should not take off unless you know you are going to make it and the US Customs guy won't have to pry the seat cushion out of your arse cheeks when you clear.

[Jerz]

Not screwing border crossing is your challenge. Some of the US officials don't have much sense of haha. Make sure you are on time for customs, do eApis properly, flight plan, border crossing SQ. Edmonton won't get you sq over the phone, but Kamloops will, if requested from lets say Cranbrook. To get it on the radio over the rocks you need to climb to low teens. If heading to Cut Bank you can get it just North of the border on Great Falls RCO at Cut Bank.

Del Bonita is convenient but very rough. Landed there once on 5.00-5 and promised myself never do it again.

Cut Bank is great for customs, Dave is interesting guy to BS with (send my regards), pilot himself and knows the area like back of his hand. Also interesting small museum of B17 training base.

Go to Cut Bank if wx is nothing but perfect , take care of formalities, relax, and follow the road to destination

Crow Nest pass is very bumpy when windy. It will be this week. Registered over 6Gs there in turbulence more then once .

If you file direct and start poking though some valleys is wx, you will probably miss your custom's ETA. They can charge you 5 grand for that. Or ban from coming to US.

If wx is iffy and you still decide to go, fly to some place close to the border, check wx again, relax, file a short hop across the border.

Most important, enjoy the trip.

[PilotPenner]

Yes, Kalispell is, but they're going to Whitefish. Not a lot of difference in it, though.

I weather is not that good, I'd recommend getting into the US and through Customs at the closest possible point. Then you are in the US and can land wherever you want. Those options are best available south of Cardson area at one of those on the border crossings which has customs. It looks like Del Bonita Whetstone, right on the border is both a US and Canada customs airport of entry. Go there, over all flat land, clear customs, and go where you please. If the weather doesn't work, land and go for coffee. You can't do that if you cross and start wandering around in mountain weather hoping to get to your US port of entry south of the border.

Good advice on upper winds here. I agree that less than 20 kts forecast at 9000 is a good rule. However you're not going to be at 9000 so actual reports from airports in valley routes are also helpful. So would knowing where you are starting.

You don't go Lake Louise to Golden for your plan. There is a cutoff to Radium that is a bit shorter, plus you have Radium Fairmont, Cranbrook, and Elko along the route if you need to stop. If you're starting from Calgary. If so, and you have good weather and suitable winds, then Crowsnest, follow the highway to Elko, come up to the border, look down the valley, if you're good for the next 50 miles, clear in Kalispell, and you're good to go.

First, thanks for the suggestions.

I've decided that the Banff route is out of the question for this trip.

I've looked at Whetstone but I don't have much experience with turf strips, and the CFS/A/FD both say no winter maintenance/snow removal.

If you want to do this right and learn safely, make contact with a BC pilot on here experienced in that area and ask him to work it though with you pre flight. The best guy is likely Iflyforpie. He's at Radium, or was, and he'd be the real thing as far as that bit of land goes. I'm in the Territories, but I'm a BC pilot with a good bit of experience on bugs and fire patrol right around there, and there may be others on here with experience in the area.

Or, you can just say" This is my flight plan. I want to leave in three hours, two hours, whatever." You should get some very helpful advice then. At the end of the day, it's the conditions when you are about to fly that determine your decisions. You should not take off unless you know you are going to make it and the US Customs guy won't have to pry the seat cushion out of your arse cheeks when you clear.

I know I'm going to be flying by the seat of my pants for this flight...making decisions on the fly...whatever aviation puns you guys like but anyway, here's the plan I came up with today...

I'll be picking up my friend in Wetaskiwin in the morning this Wednesday (we may push it this to Thursday, depending on weather forecasts down south).

Depart Wetaskiwin at 0845 local
Arrive in Pincher Creek at 1105 local
Look at the weather to the west through Crowsnest
Look at the weather to the southeast to Cut Bank and Great Falls
If the weather is looking good through Crowsnest, file eAPIS, call CBP to confirm receipt, file flight plan
If the weather isn't looking good, go southeast to Cut Bank instead
Depart Pincher Creek for either Kalispell or Cut Bank at 1145 local

I plan to call Kalispell CBP tomorrow and ask them if it's okay for me to go about it this way, as it will be quite weather dependent.

If I make it through Crowsnest and it looks bad toward Kalispell, then we'll land in Cranbrook and I'll cancel my eAPIS.

If I go the Cut Bank route...
Cross border at 1220 local
Land in Cut Bank at 1245 local.
Clear customs, decide from there whether to follow Hwy 2 westbound to Kalispell (KGPI, Glacier Park International Airport), or keep going south to Great Falls.

Based on current forecasts, I'm guesstimating that the weather won't be good for crossing the mountains in any location that I've planned for, so we'll likely end up spending the night in Great Falls. The goal is to get to Whitefish by Thursday at the latest (preferably Wednesday) and back to Wetaskiwin by Friday at the latest (preferably Thursday), but we'll be using Great Falls as a backup destination.

Not screwing border crossing is your challenge. Some of the US officials don't have much sense of haha. Make sure you are on time for customs, do eApis properly, flight plan, border crossing SQ. Edmonton won't get you sq over the phone, but Kamloops will, if requested from lets say Cranbrook. To get it on the radio over the rocks you need to climb to low teens. If heading to Cut Bank you can get it just North of the border on Great Falls RCO at Cut Bank.

Del Bonita is convenient but very rough. Landed there once on 5.00-5 and promised myself never do it again.

Cut Bank is great for customs, Dave is interesting guy to BS with (send my regards), pilot himself and knows the area like back of his hand. Also interesting small museum of B17 training base.

Go to Cut Bank if wx is nothing but perfect , take care of formalities, relax, and follow the road to destination

Crow Nest pass is very bumpy when windy. It will be this week. Registered over 6Gs there in turbulence more then once .

If you file direct and start poking though some valleys is wx, you will probably miss your custom's ETA. They can charge you 5 grand for that. Or ban from coming to US.

If wx is iffy and you still decide to go, fly to some place close to the border, check wx again, relax, file a short hop across the border.

Most important, enjoy the trip.

Thanks for the suggestions. As I don't have much mountain flying experience, I don't plan to try to poke through any unfamiliar valleys if I see there's weather ahead. Better to stay alive!

[PostmasterGeneral]

I second the above sentiments. I think no matter what you do, clear customs in KCTB. That's what I usually do and it leaves you with the most options. Once you're cleared, the US is littered with small airports that you can put down in should things go awry. (May I recommend KEPH Ephrata Washington?)coolest little town you've ever seen! I digress....

At least once customs is cleared you can breathe easy and kinda "go with the flow." That's my advice.

As far as wx is concerned, I'm no stranger to shit storms in the winter, but as everyone else has said above, on that particular stretch of the country, it's gotta be damn near perfect before I think about crossing those rocks in a 152.

[PilotPenner]

I second the above sentiments. I think no matter what you do, clear customs in KCTB. That's what I usually do and it leaves you with the most options. Once you're cleared, the US is littered with small airports that you can put down in should things go awry. (May I recommend KEPH Ephrata Washington?)coolest little town you've ever seen! I digress....

At least once customs is cleared you can breathe easy and kinda "go with the flow." That's my advice.

As far as wx is concerned, I'm no stranger to shit storms in the winter, but as everyone else has said above, on that particular stretch of the country, it's gotta be damn near perfect before I think about crossing those rocks in a 152.

Yeah, that's what seems to be the consensus. I'll get through customs in Cut Bank and go from there.

it's gotta be damn near perfect before I think about crossing those rocks in a 152.

What would you consider near perfect? <20kt winds at 9000 and 12000 with no forecast turbulence and high level clouds? Or clear skies?

[PostmasterGeneral]

I've never flown a 152 so I'm not sure of its specific capabilities, but use your best judgement. Terbulence is going to be your biggest worry, even if there is no significant weather to speak of. For whatever reason, that particular stretch always seems to be bumpy as hell when it's smooth everywhere else.

I'd hold out for a nice big high pressure system to park itself over the entire area for a couple days. But that's just me. I've also scared myself by going when it's just too bumpy and having to turn around and wait it out. Learn from experience I guess.

[RatherBeFlying]

Lethbridge is not as much out of your way to Cut Bank as Pincher. Both have E/W runways.

Lots of recent snow blown around into hard drifts. Who knows what Whetstone will be like? I've looked out my car window over the runway crossing the border. All I can say for it is that it gets mowed. Badger and gopher holes and mounds??? +1 for Cut Bank.

Thursday Lethbridge wind 70 km/h in public forecast.

I remember tying down an RV to a hangar in Pincher because it was blowing too hard to taxi. We were offered the inside of the hangar, but were afraid to open the door in the wind.

[Tailwheelup]

If you want to go a little further east, you could go via CYXH Medicine Hat.
Lots of friendly fuel service at Air Integra.

[cncpc]

Anybody hear an ELT down in the corner there?

I'd have thought we'd have heard from buddy by now.

[PilotPenner]

Anybody hear an ELT down in the corner there?

I'd have thought we'd have heard from buddy by now.

Haha, it's all good over here! Got back late last night so I've been catching up on things. Thanks for the tips everyone, they were much appreciated! The weather definitely wasn't good enough to get over to Whitefish, so we ended up in Great Falls on Wednesday night.

28th: CYBW-CEX3-CZPC-KCTB-KGTF
29th: KGTF-CYQL-CEX3-CYBW

The winds were strong (25G34KT in Cut Bank) so there was no traffic south of the border, but other than the wind there was no weather to worry about east of the Rockies. Very strong westerly flow both days, flying south and north. Customs in Cut Bank was pretty simple. Landed right on time, the friendly customs officer Jason showed up right on time, took about 25 minutes to do paperwork and have him check out the plane. The airport manager Roy was super helpful. We used his courtesy car to go into town and grab lunch, then he helped me fuel the aircraft before taking off for KGTF. Great Falls was awesome too, and it's the largest airport I've landed at and the longest runway I've landed on. Mike and Josh at Front Range Aviation were super helpful as well. We left the aircraft in their hangar overnight and had them do an oil change for us, and they also had a courtesy car for us to take to our hotel for the night. We skipped Cut Bank on the way back to Canada the next day and went straight to Lethbridge for customs (clearance over the phone was a breeze) and fuel from Southern Aero Aviation (always super friendly and helpful, props to these guys). The weather was forecast to be marginal getting up north to Wetaskiwin and then back to Springbank, but it turned out much better than forecast with no icing conditions or scattered low ceilings.

Overall, there were a few good learning experiences (for instance, I did not know that towered airports in the US do not open your VFR flight plan for you when you take off) and it was a lot of fun crossing the border for the first time! (in the Pilot's seat)

Some stats for y'all:

Total Air Time: 10 hours 52 minutes
Distance Covered: 947 nautical miles
Takeoffs and Landings: 7
New (unfamiliar) Airports Landed At: 4
Longest Runway Landed On: 10,502 feet
Strongest Surface Winds: 25, gusting 34 knots
Highest Latitude: 52°57.90'N
Lowest Latitude: 47°28.96'N
Time Zones Crossed: 0
Sunsets seen from the air: 1
Spectacular sunsets seen from the air: 0
Photos Taken: 161
Unhappy Air Traffic Controllers: 0 (yay!)
Sore Bums: 2
Complaining Pilots: 1
Happy Passengers: 1
Amazing New Experiences: Too many to count!

[PilotPenner]

Some photos from the trip.

Backtracking before takeoff on runway 30 in Wetaskiwin.


Somewhere east/southeast of Red Deer I believe.


Sunset, en route from Cut Bank to Great Falls, MT.


Leaving Great Falls International Airport.


The Rocky Mountains west of Great Falls, MT.


Back in Canada, parked in Wetaskiwin for the evening.

[cyeg66]

Overall, there were a few good learning experiences (for instance, I did not know that towered airports in the US do not open your VFR flight plan for you when you take off) and it was a lot of fun crossing the border for the first time! (in the Pilot's seat!)

What? Surely, this is a mistake. American ATC is the best in the world, no wait, best in the universe.

Glad you had a rewarding and safe trip. Nice pics.