This question popped up in a discussion today and my immediate reaction was: "Duhh.... no!" On further review of the CARS the answer seems a bit vague:
Night Rating Privileges:
401.43 The holder of a permit or licence that has been endorsed with a night rating may exercise the privileges of the permit or licence by night.
Instrument Rating Privileges:
401.47 The holder of a licence endorsed with an instrument rating may exercise
(a) the privileges of the licence under IFR in accordance with Part VI, Subpart 2, Division VII in respect of the group of aircraft endorsed on the licence; and
(b) the privileges accorded by a VFR OTT rating.
There is no "Day IFR only" or "Day/Night IFR" rating, it blankets under one. It also doesn't directly say you must have a night rating to operate IFR at night.
That being said, my interpretation of the regs is that you must hold a night rating to operate an aircraft at night, regardless of whether you operate under Visual or Instrument Flight Rules.
Just another healthy debate around the water cooler that I thought I would spread to the AvCanada masses...
Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
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PositiveRate27
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iflyforpie
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Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
As probably one of the only holders of a valid Group 1 IFR without a Night Rating in Canada, I asked myself that question as I was rapidly descending towards Penticton mere minutes from official night (I got in one minute before).
My thinking about this is that it is probably a loophole that TC either doesn't realize or--due to the rarity of it being an issue--hasn't bothered doing anything about.
There are very few holders of IFR ratings that aren't CPLs. There are very few CPLs issued without a Night Rating. There are very few people who will plow into an IFR rating without doing the Night Rating first.. because the Night Rating is cheaper and has instrument hours in it anyways.
I did mine the way I did because I was a cheap bastard and wanted to use the IFR as part of my CPL buildup, but when it came time to get my last hour of dual... (solo time was all done
) no instructor was willing to stay up to midnight to complete it.
To me.. Night means Night and you need a Night Rating to fly at Night. There is nothing in the CARs that say the IFR rating counts for Night like they say an IFR rating can be used for a VFR OTT rating or a CPL can exercise the privileges of a PPL.
My thinking about this is that it is probably a loophole that TC either doesn't realize or--due to the rarity of it being an issue--hasn't bothered doing anything about.
There are very few holders of IFR ratings that aren't CPLs. There are very few CPLs issued without a Night Rating. There are very few people who will plow into an IFR rating without doing the Night Rating first.. because the Night Rating is cheaper and has instrument hours in it anyways.
I did mine the way I did because I was a cheap bastard and wanted to use the IFR as part of my CPL buildup, but when it came time to get my last hour of dual... (solo time was all done
) no instructor was willing to stay up to midnight to complete it.To me.. Night means Night and you need a Night Rating to fly at Night. There is nothing in the CARs that say the IFR rating counts for Night like they say an IFR rating can be used for a VFR OTT rating or a CPL can exercise the privileges of a PPL.
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PositiveRate27
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Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
You are 1 of 2 in Canada! An old student of mine contacted me today to inquire about starting a night rating... I could have sworn (and was right) he had gone and completed an IFR rating after his PPL and was confused as to why he hadn't completed the night rating first!
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
Nothing vague about it:
Night rating allows you to fly at night.
Instrument Rating allows you fly IFR.
Night and IFR have nothing to do with each other, except that it is of course possible to fly IFR at night.
Night rating allows you to fly at night.
Instrument Rating allows you fly IFR.
Night and IFR have nothing to do with each other, except that it is of course possible to fly IFR at night.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
Back in the mid 1990's I did a group 3 IFR
with a PPL who was colour blind, and hence
could not fly at night, and had no night rating.
He could fly during daytime, either VFR or IFR.
Not sure how that got so complicated.
with a PPL who was colour blind, and hence
could not fly at night, and had no night rating.
He could fly during daytime, either VFR or IFR.
Not sure how that got so complicated.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
I know an instructor who is colour blind and holds a CPL, Flight Instructor and Group 3 IFR but no night privileges. He is one of the few proficient IFR-rated pilots at Rockcliffe.Colonel Sanders wrote:Back in the mid 1990's I did a group 3 IFR with a PPL who was colour blind, and hence could not fly at night, and had no night rating.
He could fly during daytime, either VFR or IFR.
Not sure how that got so complicated.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
When I was doing my CPL years ago, I went to Perimeter in CYWG and did my Multi IFR on a Private Lic. I came home and in a week did my night endorsement and then did my Commercial Flight Test. At the time when I was going to build time for my Commercial Lic. it made sense to go to Perimeter and do my 20 hours of Multi on the Simulator and put my instrument training in doing holds and approaches. Then do the night endorsement then the Commercial Ride. I figure I save about 20 to 25 hours by doing it the way most people seem to do it. As far as the original question in the thread goes. An IFR Rating allows you to fly under IFR rules in IMC. Day VFR and Night VFR / IFR are different fish. So ... night is night and must be qualified as such. I stand to be corrected but that is my understanding of this ... there are alot of very knowledgeable guys out here who will shed good insight into this.
Fly Safe
Fly Safe
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
There's no insight to be had. It's quite clear.
A night rating allows you to fly at night.
An instrument rating allows you to fly in instrument conditions.
If you want to fly at night, doesn't matter if you are VFR or IFR, you need a night rating. If you want to fly in instrument conditions, doesn't matter if it's daytime or night time, you need an instrument rating.
A night rating allows you to fly at night.
An instrument rating allows you to fly in instrument conditions.
If you want to fly at night, doesn't matter if you are VFR or IFR, you need a night rating. If you want to fly in instrument conditions, doesn't matter if it's daytime or night time, you need an instrument rating.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
There are certain risks associated with night flying that are addressed in training for the night rating. None of these risks are addressed in training for the instrument rating. An IFR pilot breaking out on final at night is just as susceptible, if not more so, to black hole as a VFR pilot with no night training.
I agree that there are aspects of instrument training that are valuable in cruise at night, and some value in the takeoff phase, but IFR training is of no help in dealing with the problems of a VFR night approach, especially without VASIS.
I agree that there are aspects of instrument training that are valuable in cruise at night, and some value in the takeoff phase, but IFR training is of no help in dealing with the problems of a VFR night approach, especially without VASIS.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
Another "loophole" I was told about: you can apparently fly "solo" at night without having any training whatsoever because it's just doing "solo" for your night rating. I was told this by a person who has done it lots of times (this person also being a rather shady businessman who has had his businesses shut down a number of times, and he still owes me money for a flight).
Anyway, I've never done it myself and I wouldn't recommend it.
Anyway, I've never done it myself and I wouldn't recommend it.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
No. A PPL without a night rating is required to fly 5you can apparently fly "solo" at night without having any training whatsoever
hrs of night solo to gain the required experience to
be issued a night rating. This solo time is conducted
under the supervision of a flight instructor.
Your buddy was miles off base.
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iflyforpie
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Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
That's the same as flying 'solo' with a SPP. No, you can't just go bombing off wherever you want in your own aircraft. You are under supervision by an instructor (he or she decides whether to dispatch you) and you are restricted to practice areas and certain cross country routes.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
My fellow posters are right - a night rating is to fly at night, and an IFR rating is to fly under IFR rules.
Perhaps these comments might shed more light (so to speak!): if we (erroneously) are trying to use an IFR rating in place of night - we must remember that IFR flying is flying by a specific set of rules, and not necessarily (but perhaps usually) in IMC conditions. Besides, unless you are one of the esteemed group that is certified in Canada to conduct Cat III ILS approaches and landings in 0/0 conditions (in a properly equipped airplane), the last 200' (past the DH) on a Cat I ILS is still done by visual reference to the ground, (or rather that list of visual references in the CAP that you must be able to see before the DH that examiners ask you about on the ground portion of the IFR ride - i.e. runway approach lights, threshold lights, etc.)
You may be able to fly the approach perfectly under night conditions, but you will still have to land that airplane on a dark runway with all of the illusions and problems that go along with night flying. Never mind wind, IMC conditions, etc...
Oh and also never mind the recency requirements to fly at night - that your 5 takeoffs and landings in the last 6 months had to have been at night, if you intend to carry passengers.
Having said all of that, as an ATPL and Class 1 Instructor who has done lots of IFR training, there is certainly some value in doing training at night (VMC) because of the lack of visual references that exist.
...just my 2 cents worth...
padre12
Perhaps these comments might shed more light (so to speak!): if we (erroneously) are trying to use an IFR rating in place of night - we must remember that IFR flying is flying by a specific set of rules, and not necessarily (but perhaps usually) in IMC conditions. Besides, unless you are one of the esteemed group that is certified in Canada to conduct Cat III ILS approaches and landings in 0/0 conditions (in a properly equipped airplane), the last 200' (past the DH) on a Cat I ILS is still done by visual reference to the ground, (or rather that list of visual references in the CAP that you must be able to see before the DH that examiners ask you about on the ground portion of the IFR ride - i.e. runway approach lights, threshold lights, etc.)
You may be able to fly the approach perfectly under night conditions, but you will still have to land that airplane on a dark runway with all of the illusions and problems that go along with night flying. Never mind wind, IMC conditions, etc...
Oh and also never mind the recency requirements to fly at night - that your 5 takeoffs and landings in the last 6 months had to have been at night, if you intend to carry passengers.
Having said all of that, as an ATPL and Class 1 Instructor who has done lots of IFR training, there is certainly some value in doing training at night (VMC) because of the lack of visual references that exist.
...just my 2 cents worth...
padre12
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
My licence does not indicate night anywhere on it. I hold an ATPL. Night time was required to get it. The back of the book has night listed as a rating but mine does not show it. Anyone have a ppl or cpl that also states night?
It shouldn't be a problem in Canada but I can imagine some anal European inspector insisting you do not have a night rating beacuse it does not say so next to you ATPL number.
It shouldn't be a problem in Canada but I can imagine some anal European inspector insisting you do not have a night rating beacuse it does not say so next to you ATPL number.
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Beefitarian
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Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
There is no need, and in fact no option, to have a Night Rating listed with an ATPL. This is straightforward:
CAR 401.34(1):
CAR 401.30(1):
Furthermore, CAR 401.42 ("DIVISION XII - NIGHT RATING") lists explicitly every single licence and permit that may be endorsed with a Night Rating. It's a short list, and CPL and ATPL are not on it. TC therefore is not permitted under the CARs to issue a night rating endorsement to a CPL or ATPL.
CAR 401.34(1):
Subject to subsection (2), the holder of an airline transport pilot licence - aeroplane may exercise the privileges of a private pilot licence - aeroplane and a commercial pilot licence - aeroplane.
CAR 401.30(1):
subsection (3) of CAR 401.30 provides for a "daylight flying only" endorsement. If your CPL doesn't have that it's valid at night. The regulations don't provide for an ATPL with such an endorsement. Ergo one concludes that that all ATPLs are valid at night.Subject to subsection (3), the holder of a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane may, by day or night....
Furthermore, CAR 401.42 ("DIVISION XII - NIGHT RATING") lists explicitly every single licence and permit that may be endorsed with a Night Rating. It's a short list, and CPL and ATPL are not on it. TC therefore is not permitted under the CARs to issue a night rating endorsement to a CPL or ATPL.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
I figured it was something like that, nice to know you would have to produce the CARS when ramped is a foreign country, i would assume ICAO standards apply here as well.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
16 posts..Let me recap
1. Maybe you can fly at night without a night rating without being under the supervision of an instructor
2. It is not legal if you are not taking training, and
3. If you are medically restricted it just maybe not that safe...there is a reason for the restriction..some pilots just dont get that.
Now we can go back to thread drift.. I recently had a problem with license conversion in a foreign country because no where on my Canadian license did it say I was ICAO level 4 English certified.
Tried to explain to them that EN meant I could speak english.....lots of issues with different licenses and ratings when one goes overseas.
BTW..they wanted a practical language test. .I say "Bye Gar, hi spake the Henglish,me, as good as anyone in Canada...maybe not so good as dem outside kaybeck in hontario or sum plass dey call halberta, but they is not canada, for sure"
1. Maybe you can fly at night without a night rating without being under the supervision of an instructor
2. It is not legal if you are not taking training, and
3. If you are medically restricted it just maybe not that safe...there is a reason for the restriction..some pilots just dont get that.
Now we can go back to thread drift.. I recently had a problem with license conversion in a foreign country because no where on my Canadian license did it say I was ICAO level 4 English certified.
Tried to explain to them that EN meant I could speak english.....lots of issues with different licenses and ratings when one goes overseas.
BTW..they wanted a practical language test. .I say "Bye Gar, hi spake the Henglish,me, as good as anyone in Canada...maybe not so good as dem outside kaybeck in hontario or sum plass dey call halberta, but they is not canada, for sure"
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
+1
I'm one of those pilots too who has PPL+IFR rating. Going for my commercial now but decided to get my instrument rating first (I had 100+ instrumental hours from military on turboprops and jets).
I'm originally from Hungary and has ICAO-6 language certificate. I photocopied/shrunk it so it fits my TC aviation booklet. Letters are just big enough so you can read it.
This is another grey area with TC. I've got this ICAO-6 for about 5 years. It is internationally accepted and TC takes it as well. When I was doing my IFR training and applied for the licence, my instructor asked for my TC radio licence. I told him I have only the ICAO-6. So at the end, I had to do the TC radio exam which was nonsense. That test is so outdated it was unbelievable. Comparing that test to the ICAO language test is crazy. But now I keep both of my papers inside my aviation booklet. If an inspector wants a proof of my language proficiency within Canada, I have the TC radio licence, anywhere else in the Word I would use the ICAO.
Cheers,
Bajszi
I'm one of those pilots too who has PPL+IFR rating. Going for my commercial now but decided to get my instrument rating first (I had 100+ instrumental hours from military on turboprops and jets).
I'm originally from Hungary and has ICAO-6 language certificate. I photocopied/shrunk it so it fits my TC aviation booklet. Letters are just big enough so you can read it.
This is another grey area with TC. I've got this ICAO-6 for about 5 years. It is internationally accepted and TC takes it as well. When I was doing my IFR training and applied for the licence, my instructor asked for my TC radio licence. I told him I have only the ICAO-6. So at the end, I had to do the TC radio exam which was nonsense. That test is so outdated it was unbelievable. Comparing that test to the ICAO language test is crazy. But now I keep both of my papers inside my aviation booklet. If an inspector wants a proof of my language proficiency within Canada, I have the TC radio licence, anywhere else in the Word I would use the ICAO.
Cheers,
Bajszi
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
It sounds like you're mixing up your licences and departments.
Transport Canada doesn't issue radio licences - Industry Canada (sorry, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada) does. The radio licence (properly called the Restricted Operator Certificate - Aeronautical) that department issues doesn't attest to your language proficiency and doesn't meet the ICAO requirements for showing that you speak English.
The ROC-A permits you to operate an aeronautical radio station in Canada. Your instructor may have been a bit overzealous as i think Industry Canada (sorry - Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada) accepts foreign aircrew radio licences as valid in Canada, if you have one.
Transport Canada requires a demonstration of English (or French) language proficiency as part of ICAO requirements to issue a pilot licence, and this is in the form of an English language proficiency test done one-to-one with a TC accredited language examiner. It doesn't usually have anything to do with radio usage. You didn't have to do this test as you already have level 6 proficiency in English.
And, this thread died off more than four years ago.
Transport Canada doesn't issue radio licences - Industry Canada (sorry, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada) does. The radio licence (properly called the Restricted Operator Certificate - Aeronautical) that department issues doesn't attest to your language proficiency and doesn't meet the ICAO requirements for showing that you speak English.
The ROC-A permits you to operate an aeronautical radio station in Canada. Your instructor may have been a bit overzealous as i think Industry Canada (sorry - Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada) accepts foreign aircrew radio licences as valid in Canada, if you have one.
Transport Canada requires a demonstration of English (or French) language proficiency as part of ICAO requirements to issue a pilot licence, and this is in the form of an English language proficiency test done one-to-one with a TC accredited language examiner. It doesn't usually have anything to do with radio usage. You didn't have to do this test as you already have level 6 proficiency in English.
And, this thread died off more than four years ago.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
I was waiting for you photofly! haha
Meatservo wrote:I just slap 'em in there. I don't even make sure they are lined up properly.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
I was as confused back then as I seemed to be now lol.
Thanks for clearing up the confusion photofly. The instructor who told me I needed that Industry Canada (now I remember it's not TC sorry) radio licence is the chief instructor and also a TC examiner. I looked into some regs and stuff before the test and it seemed to me that I didn't need that one because I had the ICAO. I didn't want to argue a lot with the instructor and he also acknowledged it wasn't really clear. His point was that it's free and it takes 5 min to write so it wouldn't hurt to have it.
Me speaking English as a second language, should I still carry the radio licence with me or it's not required? ICAO-6 is with me all the time.
I know this thread died a long time ago but I thought to post here would make more sense than starting a new one.
Thanks for clearing up the confusion photofly. The instructor who told me I needed that Industry Canada (now I remember it's not TC sorry) radio licence is the chief instructor and also a TC examiner. I looked into some regs and stuff before the test and it seemed to me that I didn't need that one because I had the ICAO. I didn't want to argue a lot with the instructor and he also acknowledged it wasn't really clear. His point was that it's free and it takes 5 min to write so it wouldn't hurt to have it.
Me speaking English as a second language, should I still carry the radio licence with me or it's not required? ICAO-6 is with me all the time.
I know this thread died a long time ago but I thought to post here would make more sense than starting a new one.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
Not clear what you mean by "having the ICAO-6". Transport Canada doesn't issue separate English language certification, so I'm not familiar with what that is.
But, in Canada you need a radio licence to operate a radio station. Not just pilots - everyone who broadcasts needs a licence. If you're a pilot then an ROC-A is adequate. If you have a foreign pilot licence you may be exempt from the requirement to hold an additional radio licence, I'm not sure. I've never heard of a pilot getting in trouble with Industry Canada for transmitting from an aircraft, I guess they have better things to do with their time.
Just to clarify - the radio licence isn't a test of your English. You need to carry it to prove you're licensed to operate an aircraft radio station, NOT that you speak good enough English. If your airplane doesn't have a radio, you don't need a radio licence.
If you have any kind Canadian pilot licence, it will already have your English or French language proficiency recorded on it.
But, in Canada you need a radio licence to operate a radio station. Not just pilots - everyone who broadcasts needs a licence. If you're a pilot then an ROC-A is adequate. If you have a foreign pilot licence you may be exempt from the requirement to hold an additional radio licence, I'm not sure. I've never heard of a pilot getting in trouble with Industry Canada for transmitting from an aircraft, I guess they have better things to do with their time.
Just to clarify - the radio licence isn't a test of your English. You need to carry it to prove you're licensed to operate an aircraft radio station, NOT that you speak good enough English. If your airplane doesn't have a radio, you don't need a radio licence.
If you have any kind Canadian pilot licence, it will already have your English or French language proficiency recorded on it.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
In any ICAO countries, you have to have the ICAO language proficiency test. It's a comprehensive aviation radiotelephony exam. Mine was about 20-25 minute long, general knowledge, flying scenarios and at the end one or two emergencies. If you pass this exam, it proves your English and also your radiotelephony knowledge.
The "bible" for this is the British CAP 413 Radiotelephony manual which is about over 350 pages. I still use it sometimes for references. Here is the link, if you are interested: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CA ... AY16.2.pdf
For my PPL application TC did not request anything other than the ICAO language certificate. I was happily flying with that until I had to get the IC radio licence right before my instrument ride.
The "bible" for this is the British CAP 413 Radiotelephony manual which is about over 350 pages. I still use it sometimes for references. Here is the link, if you are interested: https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CA ... AY16.2.pdf
For my PPL application TC did not request anything other than the ICAO language certificate. I was happily flying with that until I had to get the IC radio licence right before my instrument ride.
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Redneck_pilot86
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Re: Can you fly IFR at night without a night rating?
CAR 401.30 (3) says "(3) No holder of a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane whose licence is endorsed with a daylight-flying-only restriction shall exercise the privileges set out in paragraphs (1)(a) and (c) by night. "
Pretty cut and dried to me.
Pretty cut and dried to me.
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"
