The Air Canada OTS thread

[loopa]

Psych and cog evals at express carriers now for new hires?

Wonder if this means AC is gearing up towards an official flow through program barring applicants from express instead of coming into express and so-to-speak be stuck?

Can anyone else confirm or deny this info?

Thanks

The change at Express for psych.cog.med.drug is geared towards driving the success rate on the PML as high as possible. Both AC and Express want to flow as high of a ratio (interviewed vs. hired @ AC) as they can. This is because most people leave Express after the interview successful or not. The PML ratio is based on hired. If an Express sends 5 a GS with a 50% success rate that is 10 people out of their company with a 100% success rate that's 5 people out. You will definitely see all Express parallel AC hiring requirements as much as possible. They are all moving very quickly to ensure they can meet the PML requirements, the best way to do that is to hire people that AC wants to hire.

I see,

I think a lot of this can be averted if AC simply took over the hiring for "express" and that express was deemed the place you go, to end up at Air Canada with no if's or but's. If you're good for express being responsible for the same maple leaf that is on the mainline planes, working for less, working harder, and working under more pressure, then you'd be deemed "suitable" for mainline when your number is called. Not sure why Air Canada has elected to complicate the process so much with their come to express, with a "shot" at mainline process. I'm not in the background, so I'm sure this makes sense to the bean counters somewhere.

Best of luck to all express guys/gals

[BlueSkies12]

I condone none of what's happening with AC, BUT, guys with 4.5 years seniority are getting 320 Captain making $185000.
If you like redeyes and Deer Lake

Junior Delta MD80 CA NYC has less than one year of service.

1/2 of the 15,000 AA pilots retire over next 9 years. A pilot hired today at AA will be a WB CA in less than 9 years.

The U.S. is light years ahead of Canada in terms of career progression.

Yah but most of us aren't American citizens. I think the point was Canada vs. Overseas.

[schnitzel2k3]

It's that industry flat pay that's really holding me back from being excited and the WAWCON following that for the next few years chasing tin for money.

I WANT to be excited, but I'm having a hard time getting behind AC and I grew up with it in my family.

I'm more excited flying a little jet down south 2 or 3 times a month, same time zone, making 5 year salary and some extra PDs.

I know career progression is relatively limited with what I do currently, but everytime I am asked why I'm not excited about AC, it gets me choked up like I've made a bad choice. I feel AC is asking a lot of investment now, for an eventual career 30 years in, when you're burned out and are ready to give up the ghost.

I think if AC could improve the initial 10 year salary and get rid of that 4 year flat salary to start and put career on par with U.S progression, I could see myself and many others getting really excited about it again.

I'm nervous about doing an interview now, because I am going to have a lot of trouble feigning excitement about going back to KD (even though I secretly enjoy it). But in all seriousness, how is AC Canada's best and the ruler with which we measure the rest of the industry. It goes to show why we beat up on companies like GGN, EVAS, etc.

Perhaps I'm missing the mark?

Anyone able to give a little pep talk to help build that excitement? The guys I know there don't have much to say unfortunately. That's all they've​ ever known and they do more complaining than anything else.

I'd like to be excited again.

S.

[altiplano]

working harder, and working under more pressure

Seriously?

Working hard and working under pressure, sure, but where do you get the idea they work any harder or under more pressure than us?

[Dark Helmet]

Pardon my ignorance but AC pays it's guys/gals this "shitshow" starting salary to fly a long haul airliner which a B767 is, to international destinations. FFS, my pension is better than that and I am old and cranky..............

2nd year 767 FO pay at UA/DL/AA is approx US$150/hr. AC pays approx C$67/hr. The US FO gets a 16.5% company contribution to pension. At AC it is a max 6% company contribution for second year.

To say that AC has won the lottery when it comes to pilot cost savings vs the International competition is an understatement.

Unless you are a relatively Senior Jazz pilot coming over from PML 1

[TheStig]

Dark Helmet, honest question, are there any 2nd year 767 FO's at any of the US majors?

schnitzel2k3, don't apply/interview at AC, you wont be happy. The pilots hired recently (in the past few years) are going to enjoy as good of a career or better than any pilot on the bottom 3/4ers of the seniority list, but you seem determined to focus on the a negatives. Unfortunately, starting pay has always been horrendous, I'm not defending it and will continue to vote against such pathetic wages, but the entry level positions and advancement opportunities have never been better. Stay at your current job and tell yourself you're better off.

[schnitzel2k3]

Hey Stig,

I appreciate the sarcasm, hey and I do unfortunately focus on the negatives. Sorry about that bud. I really don't mean to rain on the parade, but between working years to get to a point where I can apply, then being told I need to take a step (or a few) back to jump on a regional feeder, as being the best route, it unfortunately knocked the wind out of my sails.

Glad you at least agree the wages at that level could be better.

Enjoy.

S.

[rudder]

Unless you are a relatively Senior Jazz pilot coming over from PML 1

I think that the total number of top scale Jazz CA that moved to AC under PML 1 was perhaps in the range of 70. They were the only ones with an effective pay guarantee of $121-132k/yr when factoring the FIP. The vast majority of PML 1 pilots were Jazz FO's with some moving to AC after just 2 years at Jazz and fresh out of college. Ultimately, the PML did very little to change the CA demographic at Jazz although average FO tenure has been reduced significantly. The early retirement incentive program has been more effective in consistently moving large volumes of senior CA off of the Jazz payroll (an average of 20-30 per year).

From a cost perspective, AC pays normal new-hire pay to all PML pilots (pay top up comes from a Jazz). Pension matching at AC is based on AC new-hire pay. The only way to improve that company matching contribution amount is to bid EMJ CA at AC ASAP. Several PML 1 (and OTS) pilots have already done so.

4 years flying Airbus/Boeing (including WB) on flat new-hire salary represents a huge cost saving for AC. Unlikely to change anytime soon.

[TheStig]

working years to get to a point where I can apply, then being told I need to take a step (or a few) back to jump on a regional feeder, as being the best route, it unfortunately knocked the wind out of my sails.

I completely understand, the rules of the game changed during the intermission. While I know you understand that it was a business decision, much like a merger or CCAA restructuring, it can be pretty tough to see a barrier to what has been a long term objectives appear overnight. There are some pilots who have now taken very expeditious paths to Air Canada, good for them, who cares? If you always wanted to fly for AC why does that make you want to any less?

[watermeth]

There are some pilots who have now taken very expeditious paths to Air Canada, good for them, who cares? If you always wanted to fly for AC why does that make you want to any less?

as far as I enjoy reading your posts Stig, this is the wrong thinking in the industry right now. the "who cares" and "me first" are what drive the pilots' wawcon down.
as you very well know flying for an airline is a job and not a hobby. it comes with responsibilities in and out of the workplace.
having to reverse to 36k/year after 7/10 years for some of us just to secure an interview with a legacy is non-sense.
someone said earlier that union reps have their own agenda, but when you look outside canada, legacy airlines' pilots with a real bargaining power don't fear to have their voice heard. lufthansa, air france, AIG went on with tough negociations, and delta obtained a huge compensation revision recently.
nodding and complying is very good and important for operation safety and consistency, not wawcon negociations.

[Dark Helmet]

Dark Helmet, honest question, are there any 2nd year 767 FO's at any of the US majors?

Stig, Honest answer I don't know. rudder may know since he initially brought it up...

Regardless, what the US and overseas carriers are paying their widebody pilots is a positive thing for airline pilots in Canada. Much like what the US regional pay negatively impacted the regional pilot wages in Canada for the past decade.

[rudder]

Dark Helmet, honest question, are there any 2nd year 767 FO's at any of the US majors?

Stig, Honest answer I don't know. rudder may know since he initially brought it up...

Regardless, what the US and overseas carriers are paying their widebody pilots is a positive thing for airline pilots in Canada. Much like what the US regional pay negatively impacted the regional pilot wages in Canada for the past decade.

Well if DL has an MD80 CA with 1 year of service then I would say that the answer is 'yes'.

Even if you ignore the impact of exchange rates, AC Pilot pay is probably 20% lower than their US counterparts. Lots of websites out there with up to date US pilot pay rates. Top NB CA rates at AA/UA/DL will be US$270+ as of January 2018. WB CA US$345+. WB rate does not include overseas override.

Plus a 16-16.5% company contribution to retirement savings.

[infiniteregulus]

Well if starting FO for AC is: 41000, 45000, 52000, 58000 (not sure of the current rates, but nowhere near the following)

Compared to US carriers...
UA is 71000, 105000, 123000, 126000
AA is 73000, 109000, 128000, 131000
DA is 67000, 96000, 112000, 115000

Per diems and extras not included.

Kinda puts things into perspective...

[AOW]

New hire pay – Fixed monthly salary of $4244.83 up to 75 hours (77.5 hours for ACrouge). After 75 hours (77.5 for ACrouge), switches to hourly rate of $56.60. This system of pay exists for the first 4 years, but amounts increase in year 2, 3, and 4. There are annual wage increases of 2% each April for the duration of the current collective agreement.

So that works out to $50937.96 for first-year pay. Still not great, but a lot better than the $37K a few years ago.

[TheStig]

There are some pilots who have now taken very expeditious paths to Air Canada, good for them, who cares? If you always wanted to fly for AC why does that make you want to any less?

as far as I enjoy reading your posts Stig, this is the wrong thinking in the industry right now. the "who cares" and "me first" are what drive the pilots' wawcon down.

Wethermeth, that is not the context into which I said "who cares". I never told schnitzel2k3 to go to a connector, this poster feels as though he has been bypassed by Air Canada and less experienced pilots have been hired before him.

I don't think anyone on this forum is going to debate that pilots deserve to make more money. I will continue to to pressure my union for wages and pension contributions (especially in the first 4 years) on par with the US Majors.

[Surfer Dude]

Well if starting FO for AC is: 41000, 45000, 52000, 58000

How do people move to Toronto and live on these wages? What do you do with your families? Send them to live with your in-laws? Can you get a loan from a bank to live off of if you show them that one day you will make decent money?

[TheStig]

Once again...I am not defending these wages as adequate, but in the interest of providing accurate information: A pilot hired today would earn a minimum (with respect to the 900 hour guarantee) $51,957 in their first year, 57,944 in 2018, 67,352 in 2019 and 76,932 on their fourth year. Those figures account for the compounding 2% raises, as has been mentioned once a pilot is trained into a Captains position they are no longer on the fixed rates. Most pilots trained onto the A320 or B767 transfer to rouge to take advantage of the increased overtime and draft as there is no reserve coverage. When the airline makes money pilots also receive profit sharing, there is also an ESOP program. From what I recall those hourly rates are lower than WJ's and while WJ doesn't have a DC pension plan their ESOP and profit sharing are higher.

[infiniteregulus]

Just a rumour, but I heard the last class for the summer is in early May with about 8 or 9 people. Classes should resume around October from the sounds of it.

This true? Just a small May course and then nothing ALL summer till October? I thought AC was hurting for bodies.

[aV1aTOr]

Well if starting FO for AC is: 41000, 45000, 52000, 58000 (not sure of the current rates, but nowhere near the following)

Compared to US carriers...
UA is 71000, 105000, 123000, 126000
AA is 73000, 109000, 128000, 131000
DA is 67000, 96000, 112000, 115000

Per diems and extras not included.

Kinda puts things into perspective...

Those AC rates are out of date. Current flat pay rates for AC FO/RP are 57.70, 63.12, 71.93, 80.55. Per diems, profit charing,share matching, pension not included. Last 2 years have realized max profit sharing which has paid out an average of over 10k, and even for a year one pilot it would equate to between 7-8k.
Plenty of junior emj captain spots in YYZ which gets you off flat pay (eg. year 2 emj captain pays blended day/night 155/hr). Someone electing to stay on the 320 as an FO in year 5 will make 109/hr blended.

Yes these rates are quite sub par to our US counterparts. But with opportunities for OT and/or fast upgrade, you can make more money than some would have you believe. For example, in a pay year when my hourly rate was 69/hr I made 90k. And I have a young family at home, meaning I couldn't just pick up OT anytime the phone rang.

[rudder]

Yes these rates are quite sub par to our US counterparts. But with opportunities for OT and/or fast upgrade, you can make more money than some would have you believe. For example, in a pay year when my hourly rate was 69/hr I made 90k. And I have a young family at home, meaning I couldn't just pick up OT anytime the phone rang.

So the justification for low pay rates is that you can pick up overtime to make up the difference?

Do the pilots at Rouge realize that the proposed FTDT limitations will likely prevent access to overtime to the extent that may be available today?

Seems the logical solution is to examine the actual pay rates in the context of the broader industry and the competition.

[schnitzel2k3]

Wethermeth, that is not the context into which I said "who cares". I never told schnitzel2k3 to go to a connector, this poster feels as though he has been bypassed by Air Canada and less experienced pilots have been hired before him.

I don't think anyone on this forum is going to debate that pilots deserve to make more money. I will continue to to pressure my union for wages and pension contributions (especially in the first 4 years) on par with the US Majors.

I never said I was bypassed at all by AC. I'm having difficulty making the financial jump into the AC brand pool, and I was very excited to become apart of team red but...I think the wages are generally well below market for the amount of experience many pilots come on board with.

Earlier I expressed frustration about this thread being hijacked by Jazz PML pilots, then it digressed into Jazz PML making the most sense to go to AC when I've spent my years formulating a well rounded resume to bring to AC only to find out that the wages are deplorable for the first few years and means to go to a legacy carrier (I.e the cream of the crop for airlines in Canada) I would have to get some major financial planning advice.

That should NOT be the case, yet it very much is.

It's pretty sad really, but if I could get past that hurdle I think the end game makes a lot of sense, trust me I do.

Anyways, enough ranting. Sorry guys.

S.

[JBI]

I'm having difficulty making the financial jump into the AC brand pool, and I was very excited to become apart of team red but...I think the wages are generally well below market for the amount of experience many pilots come on board with.
...

That should NOT be the case, yet it very much is.

It's pretty sad really, but if I could get past that hurdle I think the end game makes a lot of sense, trust me I do.

S.

I definitely sympathize with your position - I am not disagreeing with you. A few thoughts though:

The current AC isn't the old AC. In some respects that's a 'bad' thing (i.e. no defined benefit pension, 4 years flat pay, etc.) but the flip side is that I haven't heard "Air Canada" and "bankruptcy" in the same news story in quite some time and there seems to be much better labour/management relations.

No point wishing things were different or begin disappoint that you're not excited about what the current AC is offering. If you do think it makes the most sense financially and otherwise, go for it (and, once you're there, work at making it a place you are excited to be at). If it you find it no longer makes sense financially, that's awesome. Go for something different. Get enough people who, when looking at the initial 4 year pay and overall career prospects, decide that it is not what they are looking for and the company will have to increase compensation to attract candidates. Right now they don't really need to - there are plenty of candidates for the jobs.

But, look at what is happening in the states with the regionals. They went so long paying so low that, combined with the 1500 hour rule, there simply isn't the supply of pilots that there used to be. Starting salaries have tripled.

So while I feel your pain, AC isn't having trouble attracting good candidates at the moment. When they do start having trouble, you'll see compensation improve. Additionally, if you do get hired on, once you're on the inside, that's when you have the opportunity to improve the place.

[schnitzel2k3]

I think I just need a Snickers.

Mmmmmm...that's better.

Oh look - e-mail from AC HR saying 'Sorry for the wait, but keep waiting, don't resubmit, talk to you in the Fall...may'be'

Fewww....all that fretting for nothing!

S.

[aV1aTOr]

Yes these rates are quite sub par to our US counterparts. But with opportunities for OT and/or fast upgrade, you can make more money than some would have you believe. For example, in a pay year when my hourly rate was 69/hr I made 90k. And I have a young family at home, meaning I couldn't just pick up OT anytime the phone rang.

So the justification for low pay rates is that you can pick up overtime to make up the difference?

Do the pilots at Rouge realize that the proposed FTDT limitations will likely prevent access to overtime to the extent that may be available today?

Seems the logical solution is to examine the actual pay rates in the context of the broader industry and the competition.

I'm not justifying low pay rates. I was simply responding to inaccurate information aimed at making incomes levels at AC seem much worse than they are (specifically hourly rates).
In my opinion any changes to duty regs that prohibit current Rouge overtime rules would be a great move, since it pushes the company closer to reintegrating Rouge flying to mainline pilots with the requirement for reserve at Rouge. No more cost advantage, no need to have separate pilot groups.

[TrustinThrust]

I think I just need a Snickers.

Mmmmmm...that's better.

Oh look - e-mail from AC HR saying 'Sorry for the wait, but keep waiting, don't resubmit, talk to you in the Fall...may'be'

Fewww....all that fretting for nothing!

S.

Yup, I got the exact same thing. What's a few more months, right?