STOP THIS PILOT-IN-WAITING...

[Anticyclone]

Hello Aviators,

Right now im very busy with my daily life but i feel i have to intervene in this PILOT-IN-WAITING things as it has to STOP.

Guys and gals you are licensed Pilots, for most of you flying is a dream but please im urging you not to consider this pilot-in-waiting positions as these CHEAP EMPLOYERS will take your dreams and hopes hostages making you live in a dream while you are well awake meanwhile you are making thousands of dollars for these CHEAP EMPLOYERS.

Dont get me wrong i have a huge respect for ground personnel people, if you wanna go and make your career with them with your
CPL-IR and you re happy about it fine by all means but dont live in this illusion guys of maybe i will get a chance to fly.

Yes im talking from my comfortable experience and position but it was not always the case, i graduated 15 years ago it was though it took me 4 years to find a cockpit position i did all sorts of jobs but in no time someone told me there may be a chance you gonna fly with us.

Guys and gals time has changed now the aviation world is now desperate for Pilots worldwide everybody will get his Jet position sooner than he thinks, a friend mentioned that lots of fire patrol ops taking low timers, fly for free if need be to get your hours up but please think before accepting those positions with unscrupulous CHEAP EMPLOYERS that hold your dreams and hopes as leverage.

Good luck to everybody.

[Anticyclone]

Hello Aviators,

Right now im very busy with my daily life but i feel i have to intervene in this PILOT-IN-WAITING things as it has to STOP.

Guys and gals you are licensed Pilots, for most of you flying is a dream but please im urging you not to consider this pilot-in-waiting positions as these CHEAP EMPLOYERS will take your dreams and hopes hostages making you live in a dream while you are well awake meanwhile you are making thousands of dollars for these CHEAP EMPLOYERS.

Dont get me wrong i have a huge respect for ground personnel people, if you wanna go and make your career with them with your
CPL-IR and you re happy about it fine by all means but dont live in this illusion guys of maybe i will get a chance to fly.

Yes im talking from my comfortable experience and position but it was not always the case, i graduated 15 years ago it was though it took me 4 years to find a cockpit position i did all sorts of jobs but in no time someone told me there may be a chance you gonna fly with us.

Guys and gals time has changed now the aviation world is now desperate for Pilots worldwide everybody will get his Jet position sooner than he thinks, a friend mentioned that lots of fire patrol ops taking low timers, fly for free if need be to get your hours up but please think before accepting those positions with unscrupulous CHEAP EMPLOYERS that hold your dreams and hopes as leverage.

Good luck to everybody.

Hello,

I just want to share the follow up of this post with you guys as its for everybody's interest.

I will past a private reply from someone whose username is Sneeker that clearly has some trouble expressing himself, obviously i had to sensor a couple of words.

I quote from Sneeker:

Dear Shitbag.

I am not sure what gated community your father raised you in, so I'm not sure where you got your sense of entitlement from. These pilot in waiting jobs are a way for an employer to get people with a need and a want to work in the industry, into communities filled with people, with no want or need to even work. Most of these pilots in waiting have zero experience inside the industry and are relatively useless. These jobs teach boy/girls from "toronto" how to be hard working men and women away from the shelter of their parents who have usually spoiled them up to this point.

A lot of the captains and copilots flying the shiny new jets started and earned their careers on the docks and gravel ramps of Canada's north, and when they got into an aircraft they NEVER flew for free. I suggest you park that bullshit snivelling attitude of yours. If you don't I hope you never get a job in this industry and stay on the streets selling your ass for a living.

Get fu****.

_________________
DISCLAMER: All posts are writen in My own humble opinion, I try to keep everything as close to the truth and Fact but that somtimes isnt the case. If i have writen somthing that is not Fact or the truth please correct me.

[ditar]

A private message is supposed to be just that - private.

[rookiepilot]

There are 2 sides to this kind of discussion:

Yes, don't work for deceptive, abusive employers. Agree 100%. But they are the minority, because they don't stay in business over the long term, for the most part.

But when you get a shot with a "good" company, bust your tail. Do whatever is required to get the job done, not the letter of your job description. Then do extra. Stand out. Add value. Work like it's your own company.

Not willing to do any of that? Don't complain too much.

I've read stories of new class 4's, won't clean the windshields, the planes, wouldn't check oil. "Not my job".

Don't be one of those type ---

[Cat Driver]

Who you work for is your own personal choice.

When you apply for a job and the company tells you you will have to work on the ground or in the office prior to being assigned a flying job ask them how long you are expected to work on the ground with no flying.

If they are evasive or the length of time on the ground is to long for your own personal comfort don't take the job.

By the way physical work is good for you.

Sitting on your ass watching the magic boxes fly an airplane can lead to poor physical fitness.

[piperdriver]

Dear Shitbag.

What a classy way to begin written statement. I am not sure who your father is or what gated community you were raised in, so I am not sure where learned such vulgar language.

These pilot in waiting jobs are a way for an employer to get people with a need and a want to work in the industry, into communities filled with people, with no want or need to even work.

Reading between the lines here, are you suggesting Canadians are lazy? Wait a second I think I now know the answer to one of my above questions.

Most of these pilots in waiting have zero experience inside the industry and are relatively useless.

That in one heck of a compliment to all new pilots starting out in this industry. Under the bus you go new pilots.

These jobs teach boy/girls from "toronto" how to be hard working men and women away from the shelter of their parents who have usually spoiled them up to this point.

So all new pilots entering this industry are just spoiled kids from Toronto. I could of sworn six weeks ago there was an older gentleman in his mid 30's (NOT from Toronto) who was seeking advice on this very Forum regarding completing their CPL and flying floats this summer commercially, certainly I must be mistaken.

A lot of the captains and copilots flying the shiny new jets started and earned their careers on the docks and gravel ramps of Canada's north, and when they got into an aircraft they NEVER flew for free.

Yes, and a lot of Captains started their careers flying floats in 180's / 185's into some very remote lakes in Northern Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec and were paid for a flying position. I am not disagreeing with you on this one but simply suggesting you do not have to work the dock or ramp to be successful in this industry.

I suggest you park that bullshit snivelling attitude of yours.

I believe the original poster was trying to provide some helpful insight and useful information to new pilots entering this industry. I didn't sense any attitude in the original posters comments but after reading yours I suggest you have a good solid look in the mirror because it might be you who has the attitude problem.

If you don't I hope you never get a job in this industry and stay on the streets selling your ass for a living.

With your condescending attitude towards new pilots I hope you are not working in this industry.

Get fu****.

Have a nice day.

[whits]

I have heard about, and have seen both sides of this pilot-in-waiting stuff, but I'd rather not voice my opinion on that. I certainly do not disagree with everything Anticyclone has to say here but if you really want to eliminate all hard working individuals from the industry then by all means,

fly for free to get your hours up

Because the only people who can do that are more likely to be of the entitled type. Some of us have had to work to pay for every hour we have. Quitting a paying job to fly for free is completely out of the question for anyone responsible enough to support themselves. I really don't see how that is any better?

[rigpiggy]

Anticyclone, after reading your ferry pilot post, and others.... I have come to the conclusion that you are a troll!!! Do us a favor and take a long walk preferably off of a short pier...

Hey guys, I even did this without my tourettes kicking in.

[Canoehead]

fly for free if need be to get your hours up

Um, no. Don't ever do that.
Ever.

[contactapproved]

Wait...what? It took you 4 years to find a flying position but yet you are telling people that can get one in 1 or 2 years after ramping that they are wrong? Had you said you found a flying job after a few months of road tripping or cold calling then maybe i'd somewhat agree with you. There are certainly people getting flying jobs way quicker than 4 years that are currently in said ground positions.

[Anticyclone]

Wait...what? It took you 4 years to find a flying position but yet you are telling people that can get one in 1 or 2 years after ramping that they are wrong? Had you said you found a flying job after a few months of road tripping or cold calling then maybe i'd somewhat agree with you. There are certainly people getting flying jobs way quicker than 4 years that are currently in said ground positions.

If you do a simple calculation you will hopefully understand where im getting at,

Year 2017 -15 = Year 2002 does this coincide more or less with a famous date? i took a job other than flying hoping it will lead me into the cockpit im not denying that but at that time there were about 3 or 4 operators hiring WORLDWIDE the requirements were 6000 hrs ON TYPE + waiting list so are you able to locate me on that list with my 200 flight school hours ?.

Things have changed now im seeing at least 2 job adds daily urging for 300 hrs pilots to call them in this very forum, open your eyes guys cant you see that operators are desperate now.

When i mentioned fly for free if need be how far is 200 hrs from 500 hrs ? 6-7 months max can you not negotiate free food and accommodations and once you reach 500 hrs you are now in charge of your career !!

I dont have to be here i have everything a pilot can dream of all im trying to do is to restore dignity for Pilots.

I would like to thank everybody that contributed in this postings and PM's thank you for your time and ideas even you Sneeker, there were a lot of different comments and this is what its all about debating differences = democracy.

Take care guys and good luck with your paths.

[Launchpad McQuack]

fly for free if need be to get your hours up

Any wannabes and fresh CPLs reading this statement...we were all in your position once and remember how hard things often were in those days, but whatever you do to move yourself up the career ladder - do NOT EVER work for free (or just food). There is the very real possibility that this will bite you in the arse further down the road, it's just not worth selling your soul for those hours...especially in the current hiring climate.

Stick it out, keep knocking on doors and sending emails...you'll get something worthwhile in the end (including the respect of your peers).

[Sneeker]

I wrote dingus a pm because initially he had this topic in the find a job forum and I couldn't respond to him publicly. I stand behind what I wrote. My point has been proven. As for the people who have read between the lines, I suggest you read harder.

['97 Tercel]

Hahaa yeah he/she does seem a bit 'dingus-like', but that PM was bitter and weird. Sounds like you need a break from the north..

[totalflyer]

To me there is nothing wrong with someone entering this industry for a freshly minted CPL 200 hour guy(or gal) and working to prove themselves with a company. I started in an Office operations position and worked hard for 2 years making what I consider for that position a very fair salary and then I was offered a position on a high performance turboprop as an F/O making what i believe to be a very good salary for this position. It's one thing to slave a way for a company like the original poster suggested but when you are being compensated fairly I hardly see the problem with that. (Now in all fairness I did not take the position originally with the understanding of a flying job... I took the job to get known in the industry... just happens I have never left after 6.5 years now)

To me what the original poster suggested is WAY WORSE. You expect someone to go out and work for FREE. How is that not exploiting the Pilot??? What's your next suggestion, go out and pay someone to fly because it's better than working a job not flying working towards that??? Give me a break.

I will agree that there are issues with this industry, but it's not just this industry... your suggestion to fly for free is no different then an unpaid internship which I also think is the biggest crock too.

Cheers,

Totalflyer

[collegeboy]

To the new CPL guys and gals out there. Some of you will get flying jobs right away and good for you doing that it is a nice break. I didn't want to go the instructor route, so I chose the dock. One thing I never stopped doing while working the dock was looking for a flying job, whatever it was. So if you do take a job on the ramp/dock/office keep looking for a flying gig. Your knowledge you learn working loading planes at company A is also valuable at company B.

It has been almost ten years since finishing my licence and I have flown in the bush VFR, IFR out of southern Ontario and floats, crop dusting. I don't think the airlines are for me, it is just to much fun flying smaller planes.

Do what you feel is right to get your foot in the door, but please don't work for free.

CB

[SRV]

I totally agree with anticyclone. If a company can afford a P-I-W, then they can afford an F/O. To these cheap operators, pay the extra $200/month and make the job dual role at least.

If a company advertises P-I-W...stay away! You have nothing to prove by doing the job of a non-pilot, regardless of family wealth.

[ThatGuyHoldingShort]

This "information" is just hilarious to read...

Clearly he's a low timer that's just pissed off at the world because he can't find a job and isn't willing to leave Quebec and go live up north. (going thru his post history)

You recommending to go "fly for FREE!!!!!!!" is the problem here.

To all you low timers out there keep your head up. We all started at the same place and managed to work it out. Take a Pilot in Waiting position if you have too and keep applying elsewhere. Make your time count! The industry is currently going thru a cycle like we've never seen before. Jobs will show up!

Good luck finding a job and remember, don't lower yourself to flying for FREE!

[lownslow]

If a company can afford a P-I-W, then they can afford an F/O.

Technically true, but it's possible that they won't be able to afford a non-pilot rampie. What an awful lot of companies recognize is that a P-I-W will work harder and with more care than some schmoe off the street will, and often for less. Call those employers whatever you want but they still get enough applicants to turn away all but the best. So, you know, it takes two to tango.

It's probably all a moot point anyways, we're not too far off from having more seats than butts so you fresh CPL holders should choose wisely not only the company you go to but how you can be the most valuable candidate for the next step up.

[MrAviator19]

Fly for free??

Now THAT'S a CHEAP EMPLOYER!