WestJet To Launch ULCC

[atphat]

If a plane has 2 engines, 2 wings, and weighs 180,000lbs then the pay is the pay is the pay. No more Rouge style discounts.

Amen

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Easier said than done. How many pilots at ACPA jumped at the chance to get into a seat they wouldn't have touched for another decade even if it did pay slightly less.... Easy sales pitch at WJ. Stay stagnant at the Mainline, or this shiny new capt spot could be yours! But you just need to do it for less than the Mainline gig.... Oldest play in the aviation management play book. And we fall for it every time.

[HansDietrich]

Easier said than done. How many pilots at ACPA jumped at the chance to get into a seat they wouldn't have touched for another decade even if it did pay slightly less.... Easy sales pitch at WJ. Stay stagnant at the Mainline, or this shiny new capt spot could be yours! But you just need to do it for less than the Mainline gig.... Oldest play in the aviation management play book. And we fall for it every time.

I think you're right. I spoke with a lot of my friends that are now flying WB at Rouge and many of them said "One of the reasons I'm doing this is because if this gig fails, not that I want it to, having a 767 type rating and international experience would make me a good candidate for overseas airlines".

They work you like slave in Asia / ME , but 5 years and if you're disciplined, you can come back here with nice figure in your bank account.

[av8ts]

Are you saying after 5 years you have enough money to retire and last the rest of your life or after 5 years you come back and go to the bottom of the list at Jazz or Encore but you have enough money that you don't have to eat KD??

[Rotten Apple #1]

If a plane has 2 engines, 2 wings, and weighs 180,000lbs then the pay is the pay is the pay. No more Rouge style discounts.

Aleksei Andreyevich! Of all the rotten chekists in the world I never thought I would hear from you again! Rejoice. I was at my dascha outside of Moskva lifting a samovar when I felt my back twitch and thought of our last meeting at the central planning commisariat. I am still laughing at the sight of Ivan Ilyich as the Black Maria arrived and carted him off.

It would warm the heart of the Great Leader and Protector of Workers to see you fighting the good fight. I myself am currently doing the same in the west on behalf of barrel makers and shoe repair workers. Pay is the pay is the pay. In the name of Iosif the Redeemer and Granter of Favours, the pay is the pay is the pay. Our great worker class is being trampled under by the machinery of capitalism. If only we had more support the Trabant could still be carrying our victorious message through the streets of decadent western cities, those regressive centers of blue jeans, ice cream and walkmens.

I pray for you success Aleksei. Do not let the capitalist overlords succeed! In the name of Vladimir Ilyich, I beseech thee! Let us torch the instruments of our oppression!

I take leave of you now old friend. I am off to start up the pamphlet machine. We have much work to do here to educate the down trodden.

Until we meet again. Stay safe. (And could you spare some of those western chocolate twinkies like we had at the '37 Komosomol? Send them via the usual route...).

In unity, your comrade,

Felix

[rudder]

In unity, your comrade,

Felix

Apparently you may be one of the subscribers to the notion that employers should be able to use pilot pay as a competitive tool. Hopefully you and people that think like you will remain in the minority.

It would certainly appear that the majority of the WJ pilots are about to take the first step of taking that corporate strategy off the table. Hopefully ACPA will do the same and resist offers to expand the Rouge b-scale pilot population of the AC pilot seniority list.

Employers have every right to add seats, create brands, and charge extra for carry on bags or advance seat selection if that is their chosen tactic for preserving or increasing market share. But they should NOT rely on pilots agreeing to fly cheaper in order to achieve this objective.

[RustyDeuce]

So WJ pilots are being told what to do by AC pilots.
Some things never change.

[rudder]

Actually, it would appear that the WJ pilots will be ALPA before the AC pilots.

Looks like the WJ pilots are out ahead in taking control of their WAWCON.

[Rotten Apple #1]

In unity, your comrade,

Felix

Apparently you may be one of the subscribers to the notion that employers should be able to use pilot pay as a competitive tool. Hopefully you and people that think like you will remain in the minority.

It would certainly appear that the majority of the WJ pilots are about to take the first step of taking that corporate strategy off the table. Hopefully ACPA will do the same and resist offers to expand the Rouge b-scale pilot population of the AC pilot seniority list.

Employers have every right to add seats, create brands, and charge extra for carry on bags or advance seat selection if that is their chosen tactic for preserving or increasing market share. But they should NOT rely on pilots agreeing to fly cheaper in order to achieve this objective.

Oh how cute you are mr. rudder. I'm just amazed there exist gullible people like you after the experience in the 20th century that saw the complete dispelling of any notion of centrally planned economies making any sense. We are competitive beings. We are not by nature communists. Why compete for anything if there is a specified wage or specified price for goods and services? By the way, what was the price you had in mind for the YYZ-LHR route? I assume all companies will charge the same under your belief system?

Pilots are no different from any other occupation in a market economy. People will either apply for the jobs at the advertised wage or they will not. By the same token, WJ will either employ pilots at its planned ULCC at its planned wages or it will not. Should the pilots decide to go with ALPA, I'm sure WJ has a back up plan to start its ULCC in the manner it has planned.

ALPA was in large part responsible for the run up in wages and benefits in the airline industry south of the border that eled to the cycle of bankruptcy and restart that plagued airlines in the 80's and later.

IF ALPA is successful, I'll watch from the sidelines. I won't be joining the union and I won't be walking a stike line but I'll glady cross it. I didn't get into aviation because of the brotherhood and I'm not going to start now. I don't care what intimidation tactics ALPA goons employ from blanket parties, whistles, or keying my 1998 Ford Explorer, and I don't care what the the reaction of my co-workers is. I was hired by WJ and I've been treated very well here and I believe in keeping my company nimble enough to react to market conditions in order to avoid the dung heap of obscalescence that is thre history of North American airlines.

WJ enabled me to make $370,000 in 2015 and in spite of a skydiving injury that had me off work for 4.5 months in 2016, I still made $302,000 plus 4.5 x $8000/month tax free. I'll keep what I have thank you very much. But if they do manage a CBA, I'm sure my seniority will have me making a bit less but working less than my junior colleagues and I'll have prime vacation off every year.

All hail the proletariat!

WestJet Scab #1
Employee #4799

[rudder]

WestJet Scab #1
Employee #4799

Well, that is quite the manifesto. I am sure that Geegg and Clive are printing it for general distribution as we speak.

Your loud 'no' vote will be cancelled out by just one quiet 'yes' vote. Regardless, the WJ pilots as a group are in control of their own destiny.

[gonnabeapilot]

In unity, your comrade,

Felix

Apparently you may be one of the subscribers to the notion that employers should be able to use pilot pay as a competitive tool. Hopefully you and people that think like you will remain in the minority.

It would certainly appear that the majority of the WJ pilots are about to take the first step of taking that corporate strategy off the table. Hopefully ACPA will do the same and resist offers to expand the Rouge b-scale pilot population of the AC pilot seniority list.

Employers have every right to add seats, create brands, and charge extra for carry on bags or advance seat selection if that is their chosen tactic for preserving or increasing market share. But they should NOT rely on pilots agreeing to fly cheaper in order to achieve this objective.

Oh how cute you are mr. rudder. I'm just amazed there exist gullible people like you after the experience in the 20th century that saw the complete dispelling of any notion of centrally planned economies making any sense. We are competitive beings. We are not by nature communists. Why compete for anything if there is a specified wage or specified price for goods and services? By the way, what was the price you had in mind for the YYZ-LHR route? I assume all companies will charge the same under your belief system?

Pilots are no different from any other occupation in a market economy. People will either apply for the jobs at the advertised wage or they will not. By the same token, WJ will either employ pilots at its planned ULCC at its planned wages or it will not. Should the pilots decide to go with ALPA, I'm sure WJ has a back up plan to start its ULCC in the manner it has planned.

ALPA was in large part responsible for the run up in wages and benefits in the airline industry south of the border that eled to the cycle of bankruptcy and restart that plagued airlines in the 80's and later.

IF ALPA is successful, I'll watch from the sidelines. I won't be joining the union and I won't be walking a stike line but I'll glady cross it. I didn't get into aviation because of the brotherhood and I'm not going to start now. I don't care what intimidation tactics ALPA goons employ from blanket parties, whistles, or keying my 1998 Ford Explorer, and I don't care what the the reaction of my co-workers is. I was hired by WJ and I've been treated very well here and I believe in keeping my company nimble enough to react to market conditions in order to avoid the dung heap of obscalescence that is thre history of North American airlines.

WJ enabled me to make $370,000 in 2015 and in spite of a skydiving injury that had me off work for 4.5 months in 2016, I still made $302,000 plus 4.5 x $8000/month tax free. I'll keep what I have thank you very much. But if they do manage a CBA, I'm sure my seniority will have me making a bit less but working less than my junior colleagues and I'll have prime vacation off every year.

All hail the proletariat!

WestJet Scab #1
Employee #4799

Please tell me you see the irony in the fact that you're bragging about how much money Westjet allowed you to make while arguing for paycuts to enable the ULCC. Based on the current WS hourly rates you're obviously doing a significant amount of overtime to hit these large annual income amounts. So the question is if Westjet has such a hard working group of employees and via their own admission do not view Rouge and Sunwing as ULCC competition why is their only competitive solution wage cuts to their hard working employees to try and undercut the competition? You don't need a business degree to come up with that strategy. If that is Westjet management's only solution to protect market-share they are the ones who should be taking paycuts because they obviously have no real idea how to compete through innovation or product offering.

[Smitty]

WestJet Scab #1
Employee #4799

Well, that is quite the manifesto. I am sure that Geegg and Clive are printing it for general distribution as we speak.

Your loud 'no' vote will be cancelled out by just one quiet 'yes' vote. Regardless, the WJ pilots as a group are in control of their own destiny.

Who are these "quiet" yes votes you have referred to? I haven't heard them....

They've all been loud and prefer to live in their own little echo chamber on their own forum and cry the blues when someone presents facts that could burst their bubble. Or worse, dismiss those facts as coming from a managements mole. Conspiracy theories abound.

Do you care at all to challenge your confirmation bias and read the ugly details on the delta pilot association website? You may scoff at their lack of success, but they were less than 200 numbers away from giving ALPA the boot. Are those pilot's concerns just to be dismissed?

The fedex suit is proceeding to court later this year but all is happy in ALPA land.....

Where there's smoke.....

[Mr. North]

WJ enabled me to make $370,000 in 2015 and in spite of a skydiving injury that had me off work for 4.5 months in 2016, I still made $302,000 plus 4.5 x $8000/month tax free. I'll keep what I have thank you very much. But if they do manage a CBA, I'm sure my seniority will have me making a bit less but working less than my junior colleagues and I'll have prime vacation off every year.

You sound like a real treat fly with!

[Rotten Apple #1]

On the basis of what, Mr. North? I generally don't discuss politics when I'm on a pairing. I usually just do the job I'm paid for and have a laugh when I can. Last week I rented an SUV and the entire crew and I spent the day on the beach in Cocoa Beach. Other times, I spend time by myself on layovers listening to German language talkshows on YouTube or reading about the agenda of the SJW's in our society.

So yes, I think I'm a treat to fly with.

Oh, and one time I solved the Rubik's Cube in 7 minutes using only my toes. But that was before the skydiving injury so I think it would take longer now.

[proper]

Ladies and gentlemen,
Keep in mind management will be trolling on these forums. Unionizing is never as bad as it is told, it is an insurance in being properly represented at a real, fair and equitable bargaining table. Don't forget who the biggest "owners" are...look to the top.

[telex]

So yes, I think I'm a treat to fly with.

Do you also carry a photo album with pictures of your vehicles/yacht/race horses/summer home to inspire your FOs with?

[squawk]

Ladies and gentlemen,
Keep in mind management will be trolling on these forums. Unionizing is never as bad as it is told, it is an insurance in being properly represented at a real, fair and equitable bargaining table. Don't forget who the biggest "owners" are...look to the top.

How union paranoid of you! Im not interested in paying more than I do now to a U.S based union embattled in lawsuits to eventually end up with less.

[atphat]

So yes, I think I'm a treat to fly with.

Wouldn't know. However the "treat" for you must be trolling a forum and getting replies from people other than yourself!

[Biff]

WJ enabled me to make $370,000 in 2015 and in spite of a skydiving injury that had me off work for 4.5 months in 2016, I still made $302,000 plus 4.5 x $8000/month tax free. I'll keep what I have thank you very much. But if they do manage a CBA, I'm sure my seniority will have me making a bit less but working less than my junior colleagues and I'll have prime vacation off every year.

You sound like a real treat fly with!

John is a great guy to fly with. You don't have to believe the same politics to enjoy someone's company.

[Bede]

I'll second that. Rotten apple is good to fly with. But there's something that happens to his mind when gets near an Internet forum...

[teacher]

So what? Seems to me the last one in particular was rather concessionary, no?

This has been discussed to death but the WJPA and Encore as well as AC, Sky and GGN share a lot more of the blame for this than ALPA.

So what you're saying is that even with all their "resources" and "expertise", ALPA still couldn't save them from market forces.

Well of course that's what I'm saying. What I'm also saying is that ALPA managed the best possible outcome and preserved as much of the Jazz WAWCON as possible without actually matching the other regionals.

No Union is perfect and I had my own minor issues with ALPA but when it comes down to it the representation we got at Jazz was top notch in my humble opinion.

Hopefully this trend continues and all or most of the pilot groups in Canada can be represented by the same Union, not to gouge companies but to end the wage battles between us and work together.

[altiplano]

Let's cut through the bullshit...

This is what Rotten really means...

As long as I get my $300K+... F— everyone else - I'll vote an Ultra Low Wage Carrier and sell your ass and your future in a heartbeat and not even think twice about it. I won't even respect your attempt to hang on to edge and I'll kick you aside if given the chance.

On the backs of those that came before in this profession and on those that will come after... real piece of work guys like you... scorched earth.

[Dockjock]

Nobody's applying at WJ anymore. Doing nothing is probably the best play. Union, no union, whatever. Company looks like a mess, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole if I was looking for a job.

[Schooner69A]

As someone who was in the military for nearly twenty five years (and all that implies) and corporate for fifteen years (and all that implies), what exactly are the problems that the pilots of Westjet think that joining an out-of-country union will solve?

I don’t think that there are many military or corporate pilots who wouldn’t opine that Westjet pilots have a pretty good gig. Really.

No sleeping in a tent in the Barrens. No flight planning. No deployments. No heel cooling in FBOs. Overtime pay. Family travel perqs. Etc.

So… Exactly what are these perceived problems? Anybody like to share?

[PROC_HDG]

As someone who was in the military for nearly twenty five years (and all that implies) and corporate for fifteen years (and all that implies), what exactly are the problems that the pilots of Westjet think that joining an out-of-country union will solve?

I don’t think that there are many military or corporate pilots who wouldn’t opine that Westjet pilots have a pretty good gig. Really.

No sleeping in a tent in the Barrens. No flight planning. No deployments. No heel cooling in FBOs. Overtime pay. Family travel perqs. Etc.

So… Exactly what are these perceived problems? Anybody like to share?

So in other words, because you guys have it worse, WJ pilots shouldnt have it better? Gimme a break.

PROC_HDG