Hello all
Thinking of doing a float rating......can anyone tell me if it is worth the money to do a 50hr float program?...does it make you more employable to a float operator or will the bare minimum do......any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
50hr float programs??
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mackenzie`s dad
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Cargo Pilot
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Don't listen to the flight schools that offer 50 hour float courses, or worse yet, "bush pilot programs". Your bush/float training will start the day you get your first float job. Pilots that quote these progams on their resume are laughed at by the CP as he uses the paper to start the fire in the woodstove every morning.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a downer here. Just spend your money wisely. Not that long ago, I found a school that would rent their float aircraft solo after completing the intial float training, advanced float training and bush pilot courses. I know it sounds like a lot of flying and $$$, but I had a grand total of 22 hours of float time at the end of it (billed at a reasonable hourly rate) and they rented me the aircraft solo upon successful completion. At the end of it, I spent a season flying around friends and family and having a good time while building valuable PIC float time.
Shortend version of above = find a way to get PIC time, it can be done.
Cheers to all.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a downer here. Just spend your money wisely. Not that long ago, I found a school that would rent their float aircraft solo after completing the intial float training, advanced float training and bush pilot courses. I know it sounds like a lot of flying and $$$, but I had a grand total of 22 hours of float time at the end of it (billed at a reasonable hourly rate) and they rented me the aircraft solo upon successful completion. At the end of it, I spent a season flying around friends and family and having a good time while building valuable PIC float time.
Shortend version of above = find a way to get PIC time, it can be done.
Cheers to all.
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planedriver
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50hr
I did the 50hr thing to build time tword my CPL.
Don't bother. Save your money.
Listen to Cargo Pilot
I am on the dock now, inline for a Twotter spot. Where I work you need a MULTI IFR an a Float Rating, thats it. After 2 years of swamping and learning desision making from thousand hour Captians , you'll get a free bush course
Don't bother. Save your money.
Listen to Cargo Pilot
I am on the dock now, inline for a Twotter spot. Where I work you need a MULTI IFR an a Float Rating, thats it. After 2 years of swamping and learning desision making from thousand hour Captians , you'll get a free bush course
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wha happen
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water wings
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goldeneagle_53
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If you want to fly in the bush the yes you NEED the rating (which, by the way, is what bush flying is all abaout). If you want to be a corporate pilot then you waste your money. Either way, education and experience never hurts to have.
"What we have here is a failure to communicate!"
Cool Hand Luke (P. Newman)
Cool Hand Luke (P. Newman)
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Cat Driver
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A " Bush flying course " is only as good as the teacher of the course.
Given by someone that knows the subject and has the ability to teach the course is very valuable, however beware of flight schools who offer these courses as many are just a waste of money because they do not have any instructors who are qualifeid to teach these courses.
Conversely teaching yourself will mean that your instructor really is incapable of giving proper instruction, but you will save the instructor fee.
Cat
Given by someone that knows the subject and has the ability to teach the course is very valuable, however beware of flight schools who offer these courses as many are just a waste of money because they do not have any instructors who are qualifeid to teach these courses.
Conversely teaching yourself will mean that your instructor really is incapable of giving proper instruction, but you will save the instructor fee.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
First ask if you know what bush flying means. If you like to look and smell like a hard working man then you are on the right track. There is nothing fancy about this job at all. Mosquitos and sandflies, loading 400 pund drums, sleeping in the bush, no showers. A lot of folks are from the city, so needless to say that it can be a low-imcome situation and a bit "overwhelming" at first. But the trade-off are worth it a millions times over. Freedom of Flight, almost without limits. No airways, approach and departure centers and those annoying suits and briefcases. Is this not what you wanted before you signed up for ground school? jump on the train and get your float rating and those 50 hours out of the way.
Stay safe!
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Cargo Pilot
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"If you want to fly in the bush the yes you NEED the rating (which, by the way, is what bush flying is all abaout)."
No such thing as a bush rating. Since most (if not all) bush courses are being taught be intstructors who have never worked in the bush, flown in the weather that comes with working in the bush, hauled loads that come even close to those that the bush pilots are flying, it is clear that the "Bush Rating/Bush Course" offered by flight schools is a joke.
You'll get 50 hours of instruction on a plane that happens to be capable of more than one water landing and that's about it. As I said before, get the float rating and then find a way to get PIC time. No point paying someone who is not a whole lot more capable then you to ride around with you for hours....
This post is not intended to slag instructors - just trying to help newbies save a few bucks.
CP
No such thing as a bush rating. Since most (if not all) bush courses are being taught be intstructors who have never worked in the bush, flown in the weather that comes with working in the bush, hauled loads that come even close to those that the bush pilots are flying, it is clear that the "Bush Rating/Bush Course" offered by flight schools is a joke.
You'll get 50 hours of instruction on a plane that happens to be capable of more than one water landing and that's about it. As I said before, get the float rating and then find a way to get PIC time. No point paying someone who is not a whole lot more capable then you to ride around with you for hours....
This post is not intended to slag instructors - just trying to help newbies save a few bucks.
CP
I agree. By rating we mean float rating, though. There aren't that msny guys out there anymore who are into the adventuring spirit that comes with flying into the unknown or servicing lodges and camps because these days unfortunately it is all about the buck and more so about prestige. Even becoming a mechanic on airplanes (they now call them "engineers") has become somewhat funny. Just finishing up those four years myself for the obvious benefits of having that ticket. As for the bush flying, the best advice for someone who wants to fly the old way is to get involved with peoplewho have done this or are still doing it. While corporate pilots may have all the stripes on their shoulders, the (real)bush pilots have all the skills when it comes to dealing with situations not found on check lists. I don't know how other people see this but I can assure you that the best and most relaxed pilots are the ones that do it all. By the way, float flying is a heck-of-a-lot more fun!!! And never as boring as commuter trips.
Stay safe!
First off do your home work! who is teaching whom? I know of one flight school that has the 50 hour float rating but will only let you go solo for the requirements. Also is the instructor another wanabe airline pilot who doesnt even hold an instructor rating? or a seasoned profesional with thousands of hours bush flying just be carefull spend wisely or find a small operator and go and pay to sit next to him/her when she/he is flying you will learn a lot more than any flight school will ever teach you.
Take the cheapest route possible and get the most float hours in your logbook for the least amount of dollars.
I to know Operators and Chief Pilots who just laugh when a resume comes in saying they have completed an Advanced Bush Pilot Course.
If you insist on taking one of these courses, like was mentioned previously, ask how much float time the instructor has and where they got their experience. If they don't have a 1000 or more hours on floats working for actual bush operators then chances are you won't get your monies worth.
I to know Operators and Chief Pilots who just laugh when a resume comes in saying they have completed an Advanced Bush Pilot Course.
If you insist on taking one of these courses, like was mentioned previously, ask how much float time the instructor has and where they got their experience. If they don't have a 1000 or more hours on floats working for actual bush operators then chances are you won't get your monies worth.
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
I am one of those chief pilots mentioned. The courses, in general, are really of little use on the skill side and add to many hours to the attitude log. Our company finds it preferable to hire new pilots who have demonstrated honesty, puncuality, and general good work habits. We provide the float rating so that our pilots will learn to fly our way and we dont have to deal with bad habits and the belief that after a few hours they can actually fly on floats.
forget the course hype.
forget the course hype.
50 hour courses
Elbarto,
Just out of curiosity how many hours do you have to get the pilots you train up to on floats to meet your insurance companies requirements and on what type of aircraft?
Do they have reduced liability limits applied to them and/or restrictions on flying passengers?
Spafloats
Just out of curiosity how many hours do you have to get the pilots you train up to on floats to meet your insurance companies requirements and on what type of aircraft?
Do they have reduced liability limits applied to them and/or restrictions on flying passengers?
Spafloats
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Cat Driver
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Hi elbarto:
I am interested in hearing more of your thoughts on the " Bush Flying Courses " as I am still considering starting up such a program to prepare new pilots for flying in the bush.
I read your previous posts and see you have been flying for some time, has it all been sea plane flying?
Reading your last post I see that you seem to have bad vibes about pilots who took these " Bush Flying Courses " yet you say that you offer your own course, do you only teach the ones that you hire first?
Do you think that maybe I should just forget trying to offer that type of training because it will not have any value for the pilot looking for that first job?
This comment by you gives me the most difficulty:
" forget the course hype. "
I truly would like more of your thoughts on this if you can see fit to answer my questions.
Cat
I am interested in hearing more of your thoughts on the " Bush Flying Courses " as I am still considering starting up such a program to prepare new pilots for flying in the bush.
I read your previous posts and see you have been flying for some time, has it all been sea plane flying?
Reading your last post I see that you seem to have bad vibes about pilots who took these " Bush Flying Courses " yet you say that you offer your own course, do you only teach the ones that you hire first?
Do you think that maybe I should just forget trying to offer that type of training because it will not have any value for the pilot looking for that first job?
This comment by you gives me the most difficulty:
" forget the course hype. "
I truly would like more of your thoughts on this if you can see fit to answer my questions.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Catdriver reply
First of all I am very long in the tooth and semi retired. Fly for two corporations now . Pavement to pavement.
As to float time , I have only about 2000 hrs on floats.
Now, as to the other. We operated c-180, c185s and DHC2s, and a DHC 6 on floats. Pilots were hired as low time without float training. First phase was to train them up to endorsement status, and then about 20 hours or so of , what is referred to as LOFT. The advantage of this is that they get to practice different scenarios as to learn to read wind, currents, temperatures, plan approaches etc.
As to insurance we had the old clause of "anyone approved", and it never got changed (as of 2004). There were no liability restrictions and we carried a Combined single limit liability clause (that is per accident, not per seat)
Our beaver pilots were always second season pilots , and while I agree the beaver is very easy to fly, the control feel at low speeds is almost to niceand there is some nasty stall characteristics on floats, so experience, in my opinion before jumping into a beaver, is a good idea.
As to courses, the problem is that to be a good float pilot you need to be doing it every day under some sort of supervision, and with some experienced pilots for guidance. One of the issues we faced with the course trained pilots (and we tried a couple of them) was such things as dealing with taxing in very confined spaces and high winds, and fuel management....did I mention fuel management. The old adages about the only time you have to much fuel is when the plane is on fire, or the uselessness of air in the tanks dont work. Float flying, for the most part is gross weight flying...fuel must be managed.
Hope this answers your question.
elbarto
As to float time , I have only about 2000 hrs on floats.
Now, as to the other. We operated c-180, c185s and DHC2s, and a DHC 6 on floats. Pilots were hired as low time without float training. First phase was to train them up to endorsement status, and then about 20 hours or so of , what is referred to as LOFT. The advantage of this is that they get to practice different scenarios as to learn to read wind, currents, temperatures, plan approaches etc.
As to insurance we had the old clause of "anyone approved", and it never got changed (as of 2004). There were no liability restrictions and we carried a Combined single limit liability clause (that is per accident, not per seat)
Our beaver pilots were always second season pilots , and while I agree the beaver is very easy to fly, the control feel at low speeds is almost to niceand there is some nasty stall characteristics on floats, so experience, in my opinion before jumping into a beaver, is a good idea.
As to courses, the problem is that to be a good float pilot you need to be doing it every day under some sort of supervision, and with some experienced pilots for guidance. One of the issues we faced with the course trained pilots (and we tried a couple of them) was such things as dealing with taxing in very confined spaces and high winds, and fuel management....did I mention fuel management. The old adages about the only time you have to much fuel is when the plane is on fire, or the uselessness of air in the tanks dont work. Float flying, for the most part is gross weight flying...fuel must be managed.
Hope this answers your question.
elbarto
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Cat Driver
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Thanks for the reply, I don't want to seem like I'm simple minded but what does LOFT stand for?
Acrynoms have taken over aviation and in todays world it is easy to missunderstand acrynoms due to their ever increasing use. Here in Europe they have their own jargon and vision of being cool using alphabet soup to describe simple issues.
I can relate to some of your frustrations with the quality of training in some training facilities, the problem of course is the blind leading the blind.
Now back to one of my questions, do you think that I should just forget my idea of starting a bush pilot training program?
Cat
Acrynoms have taken over aviation and in todays world it is easy to missunderstand acrynoms due to their ever increasing use. Here in Europe they have their own jargon and vision of being cool using alphabet soup to describe simple issues.
I can relate to some of your frustrations with the quality of training in some training facilities, the problem of course is the blind leading the blind.
Now back to one of my questions, do you think that I should just forget my idea of starting a bush pilot training program?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
50 hour programs
Elbarto,
As the company had an open pilot clause in its insurance contract that made total sense to do what you were doing. After all, who knows best the skill of the pilot, the training pilot or the underwriter?
As open pilot clauses are few and far between these days (and getting scarcer every year or have very high pilot minimums), what do you think the industry should be doing in terms of training and hours?
Spafloats
As the company had an open pilot clause in its insurance contract that made total sense to do what you were doing. After all, who knows best the skill of the pilot, the training pilot or the underwriter?
As open pilot clauses are few and far between these days (and getting scarcer every year or have very high pilot minimums), what do you think the industry should be doing in terms of training and hours?
Spafloats
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LOFT stands for Line-Oriented Flight Training (the practical side of CRM), which doesn't really mean all that much on its own. It's basically training on how crew make decisions and get along.
We did a bit of it at Sault College. It's mostly "common sense, give and take, don't be a wiener in the cockpit and don't punch the captain in the face on take-off because he's an ass" training.
I'm assuming it is taught here and there because some pilots are super-heroes with big egos who never learned how to play with other kids in the sand-box when they were little. Or conversely, other pilots are just really quiet, and assume the other guy knows what he's doing.
Long explanation for a short acronym. Here's a good website for acronyms.
http://www.acronymfinder.com/
-istp
We did a bit of it at Sault College. It's mostly "common sense, give and take, don't be a wiener in the cockpit and don't punch the captain in the face on take-off because he's an ass" training.
I'm assuming it is taught here and there because some pilots are super-heroes with big egos who never learned how to play with other kids in the sand-box when they were little. Or conversely, other pilots are just really quiet, and assume the other guy knows what he's doing.
Long explanation for a short acronym. Here's a good website for acronyms.
http://www.acronymfinder.com/
-istp
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Cat Driver
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I am flying down to Turkey tonight in a B767 on the flight deck as an observer with two pilots that fly the Cat with me and I asked the Captain who is a training instructor what LOFT means to him here in Europe and he explained that it means line training excluding MOFT ( manouvering oriented flight training ).
It is normally done in the Simulator but can also be done during operational flights.
The reason I asked about using the acronym LOFT when dealing with float planes is that I have never heard of any bush operation using that term to describe how they teach pilots....but what the hell I work in so many segments of aviation that I sometimes have to ignore all the hype and just use common sense and concentrate on the task at hand...such as how to out think the airplane and not wreck the thing concentrating on trying to remember all this new age stuff like LOFT..
By the way, it is really unusual in todays paranoid atmosphere to get authorization to fly on an international flight on the flight deck, especially here in Europe...but it helps to know the right people....and have enough influnce that they offer these perks....
And finally I will get to compare a Boeing to an Airbus......
Cat
It is normally done in the Simulator but can also be done during operational flights.
The reason I asked about using the acronym LOFT when dealing with float planes is that I have never heard of any bush operation using that term to describe how they teach pilots....but what the hell I work in so many segments of aviation that I sometimes have to ignore all the hype and just use common sense and concentrate on the task at hand...such as how to out think the airplane and not wreck the thing concentrating on trying to remember all this new age stuff like LOFT..
By the way, it is really unusual in todays paranoid atmosphere to get authorization to fly on an international flight on the flight deck, especially here in Europe...but it helps to know the right people....and have enough influnce that they offer these perks....
And finally I will get to compare a Boeing to an Airbus......
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
To Cat Driver
Go for it. Experience is a good thing
Send me a private email if you want to know details
Send me a private email if you want to know details
I would be very careful when choosing a school for the supposed "bush course". Our company got a company from Ontario to do some REAL bush flying for us and we were told that the owner himself would be the one flying. He was apparently a real bush pilot with lots of experience and their company offers a bush pilot program and an advanced bush course. Here's the kicker; the guy couldn't moor his airplane to save his life. It was hilarious, he tied it up as though he was tying up his shoelaces. Not to mention that he complained the whole time about not being able to have his airplane tied to a proper dock. Oh and when asked to spend one night camping with a group of people he flat out refused-I guess bush flying in his mind means leaving from a nice fancy dock, do a little sightseeing and then come home to all the amenities!
