Why would anyone want to go to Swoop?

[altiplano]

Please clarify something for me: You're an airline pilot making threats, in writing, on a public forum? Is that correct?

I'm not making any threats... I'm just stating fact.

In many industries across the western world today and through time, people thinking they could walk in and take someone else's job and subvert organized labour without consequence have been wrong. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I think a lot of people have got a lot more than just a frosty stare.

[altiplano]

......

I'd be surprised if it was just "frosty stares"...

In other industries, some might start by slashing tires and go from there...

This^^^^

......is why I no longer believe that being a pilot is considered a "profession". One does not see Doctors or Lawyers threatening each other with union induced thuggery.

Again, no threats - just an observation. I have no skin in this particular game.

Since you mention it though:

Doctors - you should have seen some of the stuff going around in the OMA recently with their contract, looking to cut out of one pie to grow another... Specialists vs. GPs vs. Association people - and they are in the same union.

Lawyers - they probably just sue each other. Then again they probably don't undercut each other - they all look for how they can bill for more.

Pilots - we are chumps, we do it for peanuts and then tell the ones trying to grow or maintain the wawcon that they're out of touch.

[dialdriver]

Milton Friedman - The Real World Effect of Unions

https://youtu.be/xzYgiOC9cj4

[groundpilot]

Milton Friedman - The Real World Effect of Unions

https://youtu.be/xzYgiOC9cj4

From 1980

[complexintentions]

The only thing that surprises me is that B73ABC even bothers to engage at all. I'd just apply and come take the job if it works for him. Hell, I may do the same myself. If only so I can reap the amusement of observing what passes for seething resentment in Canada.

You are contradicting yourself...

"I wouldn't even bother to engage" "I'll just bring my smug ass over and take your job"

Yet here you are "engaging"...

I'd be surprised if it was just "frosty stares"...

In other industries, some might start by slashing tires and go from there...

How am I contradicting myself? I said I was surprised that "B73ABC even bothers to engage", and I'm not B73ABC. Learn to read and don't invent/selectively quote.

Here's the thing. It's not "Your" job. It's anyone's who can apply, qualify, and be offered it. You need to lose your sense of entitlement and possessiveness over things that aren't yours to grant. You're just gonna get an ulcer.

Nope, it's not a joke to me - I feel sorry for those who are bitter about things they have no control over and choose to blame others. Hell, there are still a few ex-Canadian (Airline) guys who when you casually say hi and ask how their day is, automatically say "Not bad, for someone who got screwed out of 30 years of seniority!"

Still victims, after all these years. Pathetic.

The point is that Swoop is a market-driven decision, and the market will decide if it's viable. If they are able to easily attract enough job applicants, then their wages are clearly not "too low". Yet here we are before they've even remotely released any specific details about their compensation package and there are people making veiled threats.

How can one not be either amused or saddened, in turn?

Because it IS sad to know for a fact that the anger and resentment you and people like oldcommercialpilot exhibit only serve to poison your own mental and physical health. The rest of the world hardly notices and definitely doesn't care.

Why are you even on this site? Because you have a Canadian passport?

To contribute philosophy advice. No charge. You're welcome!

Oh, and I gots me a Canadian ADB to go with the passport as well. So there's that.

[Greenbastard]

Complex intentions, you stopped being a pilot long time ago. You have been a low level manager who has poisoned this pilot group with your KGB style bullshit emails and calls. Under law we have entitlement to those jobs. Old commercial pilot we value your opinion. This will play out much different then you think. My apologies if I have wrongly identified you as DP.
GB

[altiplano]

"Learn to read"

I read just fine.

I'll ask again, why don't you stop carrying on about it and put your money where your mouth is?

Come reap some amusement at the expense of another group getting an illegal end run done on them?

[infiniteregulus]

Wow it seems these threads are closely following the stages of grief for a loss. One could argue the loss of our profession.

Denial
Guilt
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

First it started with shock and denial that Swoop was even a thing. Then came the guilt of blaming ourselves for this deplorable startup. Next came out-lashing and hate/blacklists towards anyone thinking of going there. Now people are trying to justify this garbage by any means possible.
Truly is pathetic how emotionally feeble the response is. I'm guilty of it too. But nonetheless interesting.

[GRK2]

Wow...all this anger and finger pointing at each other. GGG (did I get that right? That's what you all call him these days, yes?) is surely sitting in that big office in YYC and having himself a giggle. Wake the eff up people! He's splitting you right apart, and all he had to do was talk about SWOOP and sit back and watch. You've wound yourselves up like a cheap watch. It's all well and good to debate the various legalities and opinions about whether or not the flying belongs to WS or can someone can simply come back from an overseas gig and slip into a LHS. But the venom will only serve to slowly poison the pilots, not GGG. He's counting on it. Now you're letting others light you right up and they are having a bit of a laugh as well. Stick together people, you have a ruthless and scheming CEO to who is counting on your anger at each other to do his dirty work. Your careers are at stake and you're looking the wrong way...pay attention.

[complexintentions]

Complex intentions, you stopped being a pilot long time ago. You have been a low level manager who has poisoned this pilot group with your KGB style bullshit emails and calls. Under law we have entitlement to those jobs. Old commercial pilot we value your opinion. This will play out much different then you think. My apologies if I have wrongly identified you as DP.
GB

Uhhhh...what?

Emails and calls? KGB? hahah! wtf?

Sorry man, but you appear to have lost your mind. I'm just a regular pilot with an opinion on economics. You don't have to agree, but it doesn't mean they don't apply.

I'll ask again, why don't you stop carrying on about it and put your money where your mouth is?

Come reap some amusement at the expense of another group getting an illegal end run done on them?

Is the job even being advertised yet? Post a link then, with the T&C so we can debate facts without all the drama.

You guys make no sense. All convinced you're legally "entitled to those jobs", yet lashing out at anyone who suggests you may not get them. Make up your minds.

GRK astutely points out: "the venom will only serve to slowly poison the pilots, not GGG."

[Rowdy]

Aren't all of you west jetty people, umm 'Owners' with a bunch of stock? Does that not make you shareholders? With a vote? With the ability to punt GS? Or the board that elected the dingus?

[FL410AV8R]

Is the job even being advertised yet? Post a link then, with the T&C so we can debate facts without all the drama.

https://career4.successfactors.com/care ... zeoELbU%3d

[Maritimer]

Wow...all this anger and finger pointing at each other. GGG (did I get that right? That's what you all call him these days, yes?) is surely sitting in that big office in YYC and having himself a giggle. Wake the eff up people! He's splitting you right apart, and all he had to do was talk about SWOOP and sit back and watch. You've wound yourselves up like a cheap watch. It's all well and good to debate the various legalities and opinions about whether or not the flying belongs to WS or can someone can simply come back from an overseas gig and slip into a LHS. But the venom will only serve to slowly poison the pilots, not GGG. He's counting on it. Now you're letting others light you right up and they are having a bit of a laugh as well. Stick together people, you have a ruthless and scheming CEO to who is counting on your anger at each other to do his dirty work. Your careers are at stake and you're looking the wrong way...pay attention.

Don’t take the posts of a few people make you think the majority of 1400 of us are taking the bait. We believe and trust our MEC. It’ll all play out fine in the end.

[mbav8r]

.

[mbav8r]

Complex intentions, you stopped being a pilot long time ago. You have been a low level manager who has poisoned this pilot group with your KGB style bullshit emails and calls. Under law we have entitlement to those jobs. Old commercial pilot we value your opinion. This will play out much different then you think. My apologies if I have wrongly identified you as DP.
GB

Uhhhh...what?

Emails and calls? KGB? hahah! wtf?

Sorry man, but you appear to have lost your mind. I'm just a regular pilot with an opinion on economics. You don't have to agree, but it doesn't mean they don't apply.
.

I'll ask again, why don't you stop carrying on about it and put your money where your mouth is?

Come reap some amusement at the expense of another group getting an illegal end run done on them?

Is the job even being advertised yet? Post a link then, with the T&C so we can debate facts without all the drama.

You guys make no sense. All convinced you're legally "entitled to those jobs", yet lashing out at anyone who suggests you may not get them. Make up your minds.

GRK astutely points out: "the venom will only serve to slowly poison the pilots, not GGG."

Complex, there is language in the current agreement that amounts to scope, it says that any flying done for/by WJ or an affiliate of WJ in any capacity will be done by WJ/Encore Pilots. That is why they own the flying, not because they feel they should, it’s agreed to and can’t be changed unless the new agreement removes it.
Now having seen this dance before, I’m thinking the timing of the announcement and everything to date is negotiation 101, scope is going to cost them or they may make some gains to give it up, it will be a battle for sure.
I think Saretsky will just launch it anyway and settle in arbitration, just my guess

[Victory]

“…..we don’t have a scope clause but we always acted [as if we do]. And this is where airlines get into trouble, when they do things that they really shouldn’t. But we’ve always acted as if we had a scope clause. And so we’ve been careful not to violate the virtual scope clause that is in our agreement."

- Gregg

Is it real or is it virutal?

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Aren't all of you west jetty people, umm 'Owners' with a bunch of stock? Does that not make you shareholders? With a vote? With the ability to punt GS? Or the board that elected the dingus?

Believe me, it’s been discussed. There’s a lot more involved than 1500 employees simply voting a CEO out of his position and the last time it was looked at I don’t believe the pilots alone held a significantly controlling share of WJ. Nowadays though, I think the FAs & AMEs have just about reached the point where they would be willing to vote their shares as well. Regardless, most pilots I know have already liquidated as much WJA stock as possible and I would think the same applies to most other employees these days. It is not the same company it used to be. Why would you remain invested in a company when you don’t trust the CEO or believe in the direction he’s steering the company?

[mbav8r]

“…..we don’t have a scope clause but we always acted [as if we do]. And this is where airlines get into trouble, when they do things that they really shouldn’t. But we’ve always acted as if we had a scope clause. And so we’ve been careful not to violate the virtual scope clause that is in our agreement."

- Gregg

Is it real or is it virutal?

I don’t know why Gregg would say that to investors, maybe like every other CEO, he lied! The following quote was pulled from another thread, I don’t work for WJ but I’ve heard this before and have no doubt it’s written in the agreement.
“”This is why the term scab is being thrown around. From Section 10 of WestJet's 2015 Pilot Agreement.

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."”

[Oldcommercialpilot]

Yep, it’s in the Agreement which is currently frozen under Canadian Labour Law and it will certainly end up in court/arbitration. Hard to say how it will play out in the end but this was the crux of my argument and the reason I started the thread in the first place. Not to belittle other pilots or to call them out for being scabs but more to point this out to young pilots considering leaving their jobs for Swoop. This will surely end up being a long and nasty labour dispute and there is no telling whether you’ll even have a job by the end of it. That reason, coupled with the litany of other reasons I gave, make this a pretty uncertain & unappealing job opportunity if you ask me.
So I ask again... aside from logging some jet time so you can skip the country, why would anyone even want to go to Swoop? Unless you’re already unemployed, why would you leave a job for such an uncertain future? I could see someone justifying the risk if it was for a great lifestyle or great pay, but we already know you’re going to be working long hard days, for little money/benefits. Saretsky’s not even attempting to play down that fact. On top of all that you would be pissing off your fellow pilots and violating an ALPA ban.
I just don’t really see much upside unless you’re already unemployed and have nothing to lose. Otherwise, you could be looking for work again in 6 months and starting from the bottom somewhere else. At least you would have SWOOP on your resume... but, then again you may find that more of a hinderance than a help.
So apply for the job if you want, just make sure you have all the facts before you jump ship from your current job.

[Noo]

aside from logging some jet time so you can skip the country

That's a pretty good reason. I don't think people realize how well paid pilots are outside of Canada. They think it's maybe 25% more or something when it's actually like 700% more based on the latest job ad I just viewed advertising for 737 pilots.

[NewCommercialPilot]

Uncertainty - WJ has launched an Unfair Labour Practices complaint against ALPA. ALPA will likely do the same in the coming weeks. Then there is the almost-certain filing of Common Employer status, etc. In other words, this is about to get very messy for a very long time and there is no telling how this is going to play out after the courts/arbitrators/CIRB are done. I'm curious what Swoop is even telling their applicants in the interviews. I'm not entirely sure how they can even hire any pilots without knowing if they are legally allowed to circumvent their Union and hire from outside. Picture this... Today you are hired and are pilot #1 on the Swoop list. Months from now a CIRB ruling comes down in ALPAs favour and WJ must amalgamate the pilot lists. So... You go from Captain #1 to pilot #2500 and are now below the lowest FO on the Dash-8 at Encore.

The above is taken from OCP's original post.

I would like to clarify the words outlined in red font. Although someone posted in this forum that I think I'm a lawyer or some such idea, the truth is that I just don't trust what people tell me. Especially from partisan supporters, but more generally I just don't trust people. They lie. You lie. I lie. They misunderstand. You misunderstand. I misunderstand. So I research and try to understand things I don't understand and that I want to understand.

So when I read the above excerpt, I went: "Wait. What?"

Some facts. Within the last year, ALPA went to the CIRB and submitted two applications for certification of two bargaining units, WJ and WJE pilots, outlining who the members of the classes of the proposed bargaining units were. They weren't forced to do so. They chose to do so. They willingly requested that the CIRB approve their (ALPA) proposed divisions of WJ pilots and WJE pilots into two separate bargaining units. The CIRB agreed.

Fact. The CIRB, having agreed to the two separate bargaining units, at ALPA's request, is not now, or soon (possibly ever) going to agree to an amalgamation of the two pilot groups into one bargaining unit (absent a significant change in the business composition, or the agreement of WJ/WJE management). Read and understand the CIRB past decisions.

So, the above scenario as posited by OCP can't happen. Perhaps, and only perhaps, WJ and Swoop could be the target of a single employer application, but that is a dubious proposition. Swoop is not purchasing simulator time from WJ. It is going elsewhere in the market. There are no initial 737NG courses occuring at WJ right now (Encore flow or OTS) and won't be until the fall so simulator time should be available. So why is Swoop doing so? Well, I think you know. Swoop is being organized so that its business is safe, or as safe as it can be from a single employer application. Period. In every department. WJ is likely paying big, big money to people who know the law on how to do so.

OCP's post above is fluff. He knows not of what he talks. Not only is he not a lawyer, but he is guilty of not trying to understand the issues. He just wants to believe. Or maybe does understand the issues and is just ltying. I suppose I can't fault him for that. Humans are emotional creatures. OCP and others are slowly realizing the truth of what certification with ALPA (at WJ and WJE) has done to career expectations for junior pilots at WJ, and all of those at WJE. It has changed those expectations. How, I can only speculate. But since I'm not being fiancially affected by any of the above, I'm not spending a whole lot of time trying to figure it out. I'll leave that to those affected.

There is only one path forward that will get those career expectations back on track. Resign your membership from ALPA. Be ready to sign the decertification card when it is offered to you. Regain the collaborative relationship that the WJPA had with the principals at WJ, versus the antagonistic relationship that ALPA now has. History at WJ has shown that there was a way forward so that WJE pilots could have, without penalty, flowed to Swoop and then flowed to WJ with some proper seniority credit for having done so. Mainline FO's who chose to do so, could have flowed to Swoop as Captains and returned to WJ with some credit for having done so.

How can any right thinking person believe what we have now is better?

[yyc757]

NCP said:

"....the truth is that I just don't trust what people tell me. Especially from partisan supporters, but more generally I just don't trust people. They lie. You lie. I lie. ....."

This is an example of psychology 101. In your mind others think just as you do.

A person doesn't trust other people because he is not trustworthy.

A person thinks people lie because he is a liar.

Waiting for you to "apply" for swoop. Or are you not going to do what you said you would do?

[schnitzel2k3]

The fact that someone suggested any Encore seat as an alternative to taking a 737 gig is...laughable. To suggest one of the worst paid gigs over another only to line up for the next 5 years because the tail is painted teal is questionable decision making at it's finest.

Absolutely agree with complexintentions.

But I understand the entitlement - we are Canadian after all and that is union mentality. Unions haven't changed since the 80s - always protecting the worst and throttling the best. Mediocrity FTW.

Once ALPA gets their cut, everyone will be besties again.

Enjoy watching this come to life as the countless PFOd 705 tiered pilots fill their resume inbox and shoot all the haters a fat as they skip the queue.

And for those wondering I'm just sitting on the sidelines laughing as I negotiate my next contract. Life's good - thanks Swoop for sucking the life out of the industry.

S.

[schnitzel2k3]

The fact that someone suggested any Encore seat as an alternative to taking a 737 gig is...laughable. To suggest one of the worst paid gigs over another only to line up for the next 5 years because the tail is painted teal is questionable decision making at it's finest.

Absolutely agree with complexintentions.

But I understand the entitlement - we are Canadian after all and that is union mentality. Unions haven't changed since the 80s - always protecting the worst and throttling the best. Mediocrity FTW.

Once ALPA gets their cut, everyone will be besties again.

Enjoy watching this come to life as the countless PFOd 705 tiered pilots fill their resume inbox and shoot all the haters a fat as they skip the queue.

And for those wondering I'm just sitting on the sidelines laughing as I negotiate my next contract. Life's good - thanks Swoop for sucking the life out of the industry.

S.

[yyc757]

NCP said:
"...There is only one path forward that will get those career expectations back on track. Resign your membership from ALPA. Be ready to sign the decertification card when it is offered to you. Regain the collaborative relationship that the WJPA had with the principals at WJ..."

And you can personally guarantee swoop will be flown by WJDL in seniority at wj pay rates?

Please see your own comments where you said "I lie".