By now I know you envision a utopian aviation forum where no aviation accidents are discussed and everyone just magically get along.

PilotDAR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:37 pm As this is a flight training forum, and a presumably low time pilot asked a reasonable question, how would those if us who are experienced pilots want to be thought of based upon our response to the question? Testy? Impatient?

photofly wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:30 pm

Obviously, HEAD ON means straight ahead on the nose. But the concept I described covers anything from the arc forward of the left wing covering all the way to the right wing.

If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left.

Is that a typo? Overtaking traffic has to overtake on the right.

If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left.
.
.
Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

PilotDAR wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:37 pm As this is a flight training forum, and a presumably low time pilot asked a reasonable question, how would those if us who are experienced pilots want to be thought of based upon our response to the question? Testy? Impatient? Horrible instructors, with no sense of mentoring? What a poor impression to leave the OP.

'Just as I would be simply embarrassed to be an experienced pilot in the club house, listening to a bunch of other pilots arguing with each other. Does anonymity open the flood gates of say whatever you want!?!

Mr./Ms. Challenger Nami, You are not aware of the experience of other posters here, the attitude you present is not making up for this lack of awareness on your part. I try to read the room before I say too much - so I'm not saying much here....

As this is a flight training forum, and a presumably low time pilot asked a reasonable question, how would those if us who are experienced pilots want to be thought of based upon our response to the question? Testy? Impatient? Horrible instructors, with no sense of mentoring? What a poor impression to leave the OP.

photofly wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:50 pm

If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left.
.
.
Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

If you're overtaking, how can you both "deviate to the left" and "alter course to the right" at the same time?

challenger_nami wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:03 pm

photofly wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:50 pm

If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left.
.
.
Overtaking. Each aircraft that is being overtaken has the right-of-way and each pilot of an overtaking aircraft shall alter course to the right to pass well clear.

If you're overtaking, how can you both "deviate to the left" and "alter course to the right" at the same time?

I am losing hope here .... if you are the one overtaking, you ...and ONLY you deviates RIGHT. the airplane being overtaken most likely won’t see and, and hence does not have to do anything.

Pilotdaddy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:22 pm

challenger_nami wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:03 pm

photofly wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:50 pm
If you're overtaking, how can you both "deviate to the left" and "alter course to the right" at the same time?

I am losing hope here .... if you are the one overtaking, you ...and ONLY you deviates RIGHT. the airplane being overtaken most likely won’t see and, and hence does not have to do anything.

Slight misunderstanding here... when PF says "both", he meant that the overtaking aircraft cannot both deviate to the left AND to the right at the same time. I think you misunderstood this as him saying that the overtaking aircraft and the aircraft being overtaken is what he was referring to by "both".

You did mention on your quote above.... "If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left" Is that not a typo?

challenger_nami wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:03 pm No one deviates to the left here.

photofly wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:31 pm

challenger_nami wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:03 pm No one deviates to the left here.

Right. So why did you say "If you are overtaking n aircraft from behind, that aircraft won’t see you. It will be your responsibility to deviate to the left."

I know you know perfectly well what to do, but if that's not a typo, then I don't understand you.

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:58 pm Holy shit. (OP here)
A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think.

Castorero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:40 pm
Unfortunately from time to time, some complete idiot with a personality disorder shows up, who likely has never been at the controls of a real airplane, and starts arguing with real pilots about everything .

It is hard sometimes not to take the bait and join in just for the fun of it. We all get bored "on a slow day".

From my corner, it is getting tiresome and unproductive to say the least. It is high time that Pope Alexander convened a New Tribunal and ordered a train load of firewood for the Piazza.

I, for one, look forward to it.

Castorero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:40 pm

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:58 pm Holy shit. (OP here)

It was not my intention to start a flamewar here.

This thread has confused two issues - which is likely my fault. The original question was about steep turns at low altitude, which for the purposes of my question, is anything steeper than 30° if I must put a number on it.

It became conflated with slipping turns from base to final for three reasons:
1) I have theorized that my trepidation with steep turns at circuit height stems from a close call incipient spin turning base to final a long time ago that could have killed me.
2) In more recent training, while practicing a no-flap landing, my instructor advised me to use full rudder in a slipping turn to final. A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think. I think that decision has shone a light on a weakness of mine I need to overcome.
3) My failure to understand the source of my ignorance/fear/confusion/whatever-you-call-it has prevented me from stating the question succinctly.

The intended result of my question was to find advice in overcoming this fear, as I recognize it to be irrational (although, that seems to be up for debate still), assuming proper control of the aircraft and a correctly executed turn. For that part, I would say, weeding through the hubris, there has been a lot of good advice here. It was not my intention to question the wisdom of teaching the maneuver, nor to debate where and when it would be appropriate; it's part of the flight training regimen, and that's good enough for me.

I would suggest that any comments not addressing the original question are better saved for another thread.

RedAndWhiteBaron
Dont let this fracas deter you, There is a lot of good people here that know what they are about and are happy to share their knowledge in a helpful manner.
I am sure you can tell who they are.

Stick around.

Unfortunately from time to time, some complete idiot with a personality disorder shows up, who likely has never been at the controls of a real airplane, and starts arguing with real pilots about everything .

It is hard sometimes not to take the bait and join in just for the fun of it. We all get bored "on a slow day".

From my corner, it is getting tiresome and unproductive to say the least. It is high time that Pope Alexander convened a New Tribunal and ordered a train load of firewood for the Piazza.

I, for one, look forward to it.

Castorero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:51 pm

challenger_nami wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:35 pm

Castorero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:40 pm
Unfortunately from time to time, some complete idiot with a personality disorder shows up, who likely has never been at the controls of a real airplane, and starts arguing with real pilots about everything .

It is hard sometimes not to take the bait and join in just for the fun of it. We all get bored "on a slow day".

From my corner, it is getting tiresome and unproductive to say the least. It is high time that Pope Alexander convened a New Tribunal and ordered a train load of firewood for the Piazza.

I, for one, look forward to it.

You sure picked a Nice way to inflate your own ego. But did you actually count float flying as real flying and yourself as a real pilot?

Sadly, there is nothing to inflate here, Nami .
You have provided enough hot air in these here parts to lift the Hindenburg.
Give it a rest, son, and if that isn't possible, there are some medications I can suggest...


.

rookiepilot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:39 pm

Castorero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:40 pm RedAndWhiteBaron
Dont let this fracas deter you, There is a lot of good people here that know what they are about and are happy to share their knowledge in a helpful manner.
I am sure you can tell who they are.

Stick around.

Unfortunately from time to time, some complete idiot with a personality disorder shows up, who likely has never been at the controls of a real airplane, and starts arguing with real pilots about everything .

It is hard sometimes not to take the bait and join in just for the fun of it. We all get bored "on a slow day".

From my corner, it is getting tiresome and unproductive to say the least. It is high time that Pope Alexander convened a New Tribunal and ordered a train load of firewood for the Piazza.

I, for one, look forward to it.

Absolutely, stick around.
I think the OP raised an important thread, that solely due to accidents that have happened --- almost always fatal -- is vital for every pilot.

Like PilotDar, I've had a (mechanical failure in my case) accident, and it took a long time physically, mentally and emotionally to recover. I don't want to see what happened to me, or worse, happen to anyone. People's lives and families are far too important.

Most people here have been supportive, and they have helped me move forward. One has taken joy in claiming without a shred of evidence I love to wreck airplanes. Online predators with a terrible and sad existence exist, taking their anger out on others for pleasure.

Don't let them wreck your experience.
And here is the challenge to the mods:
When personal attacks start to dominate, holidays are a good idea.
There should be absolutely zero tolerance for attacks on a pilots character or personal life. Ever.

As Dar rightly says, this in particular is a learning forum. People should never be mocked for learning.

Castorero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:10 pm

challenger_nami wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:58 pm

Castorero wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:51 pm

Father, what you ask is not possible.
And I don’t take meds. so You take them for me, and I trust they work like Magic. Sounds like you enjoy a good medication here and there.

Plus, if you think you are right and I am the one who is wrong, prove me wrong with reason and logic beyond talking weird, father.

Nami... Filium meum :

Te Benedicto, Te Benedicto, Te Benedicto, In Nomine Patriis, et Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus, Amen.

Dominus Vobiscum

photofly wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:42 pm

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:58 pm Holy shit. (OP here)
A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think.

Transport Canada has a stiffie for artificially classifying (coordinated) turns as gentle, medium and steep, with the two dividing lines at 15° and 30° of bank. I've never considered a slipping turn to fit into this classification, but I'm not surprised that various people have interpreted the words "steep turns at low altitude" in different ways.

I don't think there's a lot of use for deliberate (level fight, 45° bank) steep turns at low altitude, unless you're trying to demonstrate something in particular (illusions caused by drift comes to mind.) I think the whole collision avoidance theme is a huge red herring.

On the other hand, slipping turns can be useful in the circuit: solo pilots should work to get used to them, for working forced approach scenarios, engine failure scenarios in a circuit, and general flexibility of manoeuvring. Be prepared to use up to and including full rudder deflection and use bank to achieve the ground track you require. Learn and achieve an appropriate pitch attitude to maintain adequate airspeed. None of this is novel; all of this is in the Flight Training Manual and Flight Instructor Guide.

the-minister31 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:28 pm

photofly wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:42 pm

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:58 pm Holy shit. (OP here)
A full rudder slipping turn can be considered to be a steep turn I think.

Transport Canada has a stiffie for artificially classifying (coordinated) turns as gentle, medium and steep, with the two dividing lines at 15° and 30° of bank. I've never considered a slipping turn to fit into this classification, but I'm not surprised that various people have interpreted the words "steep turns at low altitude" in different ways.

I don't think there's a lot of use for deliberate (level fight, 45° bank) steep turns at low altitude, unless you're trying to demonstrate something in particular (illusions caused by drift comes to mind.) I think the whole collision avoidance theme is a huge red herring.

On the other hand, slipping turns can be useful in the circuit: solo pilots should work to get used to them, for working forced approach scenarios, engine failure scenarios in a circuit, and general flexibility of manoeuvring. Be prepared to use up to and including full rudder deflection and use bank to achieve the ground track you require. Learn and achieve an appropriate pitch attitude to maintain adequate airspeed. None of this is novel; all of this is in the Flight Training Manual and Flight Instructor Guide.

Even though we disagreed earlier on the potential danger of a slip, I have to say, that was the best comment in this thread to this point in my opinion.

Here is my take on the OP's initial question. I know some won't agree on some points but it is a peraonnal opinion based on my experience.

OP : Your fear of low level slips is normal in my opinion. There is definitely a higher level of risk doing these manoeuvres at low altitude, because there is no room to recover. You should be careful to avoid a stall at all costs. You more than anyone would be well placed to talk about the dangers of an uncoordinated stall at low level.

It does not mean you shouldn't practice such exercices.
Increased risk just means you have to be more careful. I would guess that you know way more now than when you spun that glider years ago. Keep the nose down, get out of the slip if you are uncomfortable. Don't try something you haven't already practiced with your instructor. Keep the nose down!

From my experience, a slipping turn is not considered a steep turn. It is a volountary uncoordinated turn.

a slipping turn is not considered a steep turn. It is a voluntary uncoordinated turn.

because there is no room to recover. You should be careful to avoid a stall at all costs.