Pfizer Covid Vaccine shows 90% effectiveness.

[montado]

This is very interesting. Has been showing up on various news feeds.

https://summit.news/2020/11/18/top-path ... Cx6_Okanrc

Well if we just stopped testing for covid all together and told people they had the flu... who would know any different. And when Toronto public health openly admits every death with covid is a death by covid...

[mixturerich]

This is very interesting. Has been showing up on various news feeds.

https://summit.news/2020/11/18/top-path ... Cx6_Okanrc

Well if we just stopped testing for covid all together and told people they had the flu... who would know any different.

The healthcare workers where the icu’s were overflowing, they know the difference.

We should should put the Alberta doc and Fauci in the ring together and settle this once and for all!

[av8ts]

After reading this thread all I can say is WOW. Just WOW. I can’t believe how many pilot are out there in Qanon conspiracy theory tin hat land. I think this sign from a business says it all.

[mixturerich]

I can’t believe how many pilot are out there in Qanon conspiracy theory tin hat land.

It’s quite the spectacle, isn’t it?

[montado]

If we had to say who was more radical, Dr. Roger, who basically calls this a bad flu. And then the people who thought it was worth turning the world upside down over this virus. I'm pretty certain Roger is the least radical, even though I don't agree completely with what he says.

I think its radical they are handing out fines to protestors outdoors who are protesting lockdowns, yet Trudeau was out with BLM protestors doing the very same thing for a different cause that he deemed worth it. The rules only apply to who we choose! That's radical and fascist.

Parts of Toronto are now saying mandatory masks outside! Someone please show me the science behind this one! And if the science is right, why haven’t we had mandatory masks outside since March? If the science is right, why is it not being universally adapted throughout the entire city? Is this the usual “everything helps” argument? Maybe if I do a cartwheel the air around my face will wizz the virus away, so we should all do cartwheels because it might work, and why would anyone question something that might work? Even if it’s not that effective, science shows that people who cartwheel are less likely to die from a virus! (Maybe it’s because people who cartwheel are generally not obese and old, but heck... let’s just state the scientific fact that people who can complete a successful cartwheel are less likely to die from a virus and leave it at that).

Some would say it’s rational to do whatever it takes to stop the spread. I call that hysteria and fear. Could you imagine someone who’s a pilot and is so logical, would be against an sop like do cartwheels to prevent the spread! Ridiculous eh! We should just do whatever DOFO and TUDO say.... science.

Just remember in some parts of the world the captain is the main man so much so an FO would never question the captain even if he was going to fly the plane into the mountains. I don’t see it as we are pilots so I’m surprised people don’t just comply with the leaders. I see it as if DOFO was flying into a mountain would mixturerich even notice? Would rookiepilot use the old pace model?

[av8ts]

Cartwheels, yup, you made my point. Thank you.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Do not question the authorities or the media. To do so makes you part of the tin hat club

[CpnCrunch]

Do not question the authorities or the media. To do so makes you part of the tin hat club

No, but questioning the best available evidence definitely does make you a part of the tin hat club, unless, perhaps, you are a virologist.

And it isn't necessary to shut down the economy to protect against covid. We've had proof of that here in BC, right up until yesterday. Now we're in almost a full-fledged lockdown, seemingly because people just can't contain their urges to have massive parties and socialise indoors. So if you want to blame anyone for the effects on our economy...

[rookiepilot]

After reading this thread all I can say is WOW. Just WOW. I can’t believe how many pilot are out there in Qanon conspiracy theory tin hat land. I think this sign from a business says it all.

It does.

And please don't be a real loser who abuses minimum wage Tim's workers. Too much of this.

[av8ts]

This should be easier for pilots to understand. We are all familiar with the Swiss cheese model.

[mbav8r]

If we had to say who was more radical, Dr. Roger, who basically calls this a bad flu. And then the people who thought it was worth turning the world upside down over this virus. I'm pretty certain Roger is the least radical, even though I don't agree completely with what he says.

I think its radical they are handing out fines to protestors outdoors who are protesting lockdowns, yet Trudeau was out with BLM protestors doing the very same thing for a different cause that he deemed worth it. The rules only apply to who we choose! That's radical and fascist.

Parts of Toronto are now saying mandatory masks outside! Someone please show me the science behind this one! And if the science is right, why haven’t we had mandatory masks outside since March? If the science is right, why is it not being universally adapted throughout the entire city? Is this the usual “everything helps” argument? Maybe if I do a cartwheel the air around my face will wizz the virus away, so we should all do cartwheels because it might work, and why would anyone question something that might work? Even if it’s not that effective, science shows that people who cartwheel are less likely to die from a virus! (Maybe it’s because people who cartwheel are generally not obese and old, but heck... let’s just state the scientific fact that people who can complete a successful cartwheel are less likely to die from a virus and leave it at that).

Some would say it’s rational to do whatever it takes to stop the spread. I call that hysteria and fear. Could you imagine someone who’s a pilot and is so logical, would be against an sop like do cartwheels to prevent the spread! Ridiculous eh! We should just do whatever DOFO and TUDO say.... science.

Just remember in some parts of the world the captain is the main man so much so an FO would never question the captain even if he was going to fly the plane into the mountains. I don’t see it as we are pilots so I’m surprised people don’t just comply with the leaders. I see it as if DOFO was flying into a mountain would mixturerich even notice? Would rookiepilot use the old pace model?

Honestly, I thought you like to use logic, can’t see the benefit of mandating a mask outdoors when the messaging has been and continues to be avoid large indoor gatherings. The people who gather outdoors seem to think that is some kind of force field and don’t bother to distance at all. Have you seen these idiot protesters, side by side, arm and arm spreading their virus.
For what it’s worth and it is important, Steinbach test positivity is over 40%, the hospitals are hitting critical numbers, yep it’s a fucking hoax!
Well, I’m off to practice my cartwheels, you never know when you might need them!

[montado]

Mbav8r I didn't realize all these cases in Manitoba were from those people protesting outside! Well shit why didn't they release this science to the world! Why was Trudeau out protesting setting a bad example for us?

So you support masks outdoors policy? Is this because of science? Last I heard being outside is very low risk, but let me guess the science has changed again!

[digits_]

Scientists must get the same twitch when they see people writing and talking "because of science" as that pilots get when the media report about airline incidents and write "the pilot".

[mbav8r]

Mbav8r I didn't realize all these cases in Manitoba were from those people protesting outside! Well shit why didn't they release this science to the world! Why was Trudeau out protesting setting a bad example for us?

So you support masks outdoors policy? Is this because of science? Last I heard being outside is very low risk, but let me guess the science has changed again!

I guess you missed the point, outdoors is “safer” if you keep your distance, otherwise there are many variables, like wind, activity etc.
Steinbach is a small city that for the most part has low compliance and a big “communal living” population, the 40% positivity is no coincidence, it’s a direct result of their behaviour, protesting included.
Guess what though, it really doesn’t matter what you or I think, and with public health orders to enforce, the idiot will get the message through their wallets.
Take care

[mixturerich]

Scientists must get the same twitch when they see people writing and talking "because of science" as that pilots get when the media report about airline incidents and write "the pilot".

And so, like scientists, we simply ask that people trust us, and let us do our jobs.

Reading some of this forum often reminds me of tired deadheading, when you’re sitting within earshot of some loud and chatty, but clueless layman passengers. You know the ones...so confident are they in their knowledge and assessment of what’s going on, and you can’t help but bite your tongue to explain how things really work, given that it’s your profession, and morally responsible one at that.

[montado]

Scientists must get the same twitch when they see people writing and talking "because of science" as that pilots get when the media report about airline incidents and write "the pilot".

And so, like scientists, we simply ask that people trust us, and let us do our jobs.

Reading some of this forum often reminds me of tired deadheading, when you’re sitting within earshot of some loud and chatty, but clueless layman passengers. You know the ones...so confident are they in their knowledge and assessment of what’s going on, and you can’t help but bite your tongue to explain how things really work, given that it’s your profession, and morally responsible one at that.

All these aviation analogies I love it. So I got one for you. Imagine there’s the pilot captain (politician)... The flight attendant (public health) calls up says we have a medical emergency we need to land. She tells the captain where we should go. She doesn't know where they are, only somewhere between A and B... Has no idea the weather, the fuel on board, has no idea the hospital capability where she's asking to go. Basically asking the captain to trust her decision as she claims to know that she knows best how to deal with the medical emergency as she was trained in first aid, and the pilots aren't. So she decides she should run the show.

Meanwhile the first officer (a business owner) is yanking you in the other direction saying that you can't just listen to the flight attendants and pleads that you have a flight o lead and theres more than just this medical emergency to deal with. He says you really need to consider the weather (how the economy is being impacted) with you decisions where you may divert. Then there's this kid on the flight (avcanada poster) who can see what happening in the cabin and kind of just trusts whatever the flight attendants say, obviously you should just listen to the experts. The captain has the final say and I would do whatever the captain tell me to do. He consulted with the flight attendant... And clearly saving this one life on board is worth it. You don't even need to consider the safe operation of the flight at this point you just need to make sure this one passenger doesn't die... Do what the flight attendant says! She knows best. Anyone who thinks this is wrong is a Karen, a Trump supporter, Q...

Who's running the country right now? The captain or the flight attendant? Yes that's right, the flight attendant has this captain wrapped around her finger.

I didn't know it was doctors and scientist jobs to make economic and political decisions.

Edit, changed up my analogy from kid on the ground to kid on the plane. Way more realistic! Lol

[mbav8r]

Scientists must get the same twitch when they see people writing and talking "because of science" as that pilots get when the media report about airline incidents and write "the pilot".

And so, like scientists, we simply ask that people trust us, and let us do our jobs.

Reading some of this forum often reminds me of tired deadheading, when you’re sitting within earshot of some loud and chatty, but clueless layman passengers. You know the ones...so confident are they in their knowledge and assessment of what’s going on, and you can’t help but bite your tongue to explain how things really work, given that it’s your profession, and morally responsible one at that.

All these aviation analogies I love it. So I got one for you. Imagine you are the pilot (politician)... The flight attendant (public health) calls up says we have a medical emergency we need to land. She tells you where we should go. She doesn't know where you are, only somewhere between A and B... Has no idea the weather, the fuel on board, has no idea the hospital capability where she's asking you to go. Basically asking you to trust her decision as she claims to know that she knows best how to deal with the medical emergency as she was trained in first aid, and you the pilot aren't. So she decides she should run the show.

Meanwhile the first officer (a business owner) is yanking you in the other direction saying that you can't just listen to the flight attendants and pleads that you have a flight o lead and theres more than just this medical emergency to deal with. He says you really need to consider the weather (how the economy is being impacted) with you decisions where you may divert. Then there's this kid pointing up at the sky watching this plane fly (avcanada poster) who says that first officer is so dumb, obviously you should just listen to the experts, the captain. The captain has the final say and I would do whatever the captain tell me to do. He consulted with the flight attendant... And clearly saving this one life on board is worth it. You don't even need to consider the safe operation of the flight at this point you just need to make sure this one passenger doesn't die... Do what the flight attendant says! She knows best. Anyone who thinks this is wrong is a Karen, a Trump supporter, Q...

Who's running the country right now? The captain or the flight attendant? Yes that's right, the flight attendant has this captain wrapped around her finger.

I didn't know it was doctors and scientist jobs to make economic and political decisions.

Holy @#$!!

[mixturerich]

Scientists must get the same twitch when they see people writing and talking "because of science" as that pilots get when the media report about airline incidents and write "the pilot".

And so, like scientists, we simply ask that people trust us, and let us do our jobs.

Reading some of this forum often reminds me of tired deadheading, when you’re sitting within earshot of some loud and chatty, but clueless layman passengers. You know the ones...so confident are they in their knowledge and assessment of what’s going on, and you can’t help but bite your tongue to explain how things really work, given that it’s your profession, and morally responsible one at that.

All these aviation analogies I love it. So I got one for you. Imagine there’s the pilot captain (politician)... The flight attendant (public health) calls up says we have a medical emergency we need to land. She tells the captain where we should go. She doesn't know where they are, only somewhere between A and B... Has no idea the weather, the fuel on board, has no idea the hospital capability where she's asking to go. Basically asking the captain to trust her decision as she claims to know that she knows best how to deal with the medical emergency as she was trained in first aid, and the pilots aren't. So she decides she should run the show.

Meanwhile the first officer (a business owner) is yanking you in the other direction saying that you can't just listen to the flight attendants and pleads that you have a flight o lead and theres more than just this medical emergency to deal with. He says you really need to consider the weather (how the economy is being impacted) with you decisions where you may divert. Then there's this kid on the flight (avcanada poster) who can see what happening in the cabin and kind of just trusts whatever the flight attendants say, obviously you should just listen to the experts. The captain has the final say and I would do whatever the captain tell me to do. He consulted with the flight attendant... And clearly saving this one life on board is worth it. You don't even need to consider the safe operation of the flight at this point you just need to make sure this one passenger doesn't die... Do what the flight attendant says! She knows best. Anyone who thinks this is wrong is a Karen, a Trump supporter, Q...

Who's running the country right now? The captain or the flight attendant? Yes that's right, the flight attendant has this captain wrapped around her finger.

I didn't know it was doctors and scientist jobs to make economic and political decisions.

Edit, changed up my analogy from kid on the ground to kid on the plane. Way more realistic! Lol

Nobody’s laughing.

Throughout this entire thread, you’ve really come off like a cocky junior FO who’s mad that he’s furloughed, but thinks he’s too pretty to wear a mask.

Either that or a troll. Regardless, what a disgraceful post.

[CpnCrunch]

So, what do people have against wearing a mask while in Walmart, or doing flight instructing, or whatever you're doing? Why is that so difficult?

[northernpilot2]

So, what do people have against wearing a mask while in Walmart, or doing flight instructing, or whatever you're doing? Why is that so difficult?

Why can't the scared people just stay home? They have needs to go out? Then they should put on the mask, maybe with extra layers. They should mind their own business. They shouldn't be forcing their opinions on others.

[av8ts]

So, what do people have against wearing a mask while in Walmart, or doing flight instructing, or whatever you're doing? Why is that so difficult?

Why can't the scared people just stay home? They have needs to go out? Then they should put on the mask, maybe with extra layers. They should mind their own business. They shouldn't be forcing their opinions on others.

They are wearing the mask for your safety. But your too stupid to know it.

[northernpilot2]

They are wearing the mask for your safety. But your too stupid to know it.

Why can't I worry about my own safety myself? Why should they worry about it? It's like me telling smokers not to smoke, because I'm concerned with their safety so they don't get cancer.

[montado]

Now that we are nearly a year into this studies specifically about the efficacy of masks are rolling out as in this article.

https://fee.org/articles/new-danish-stu ... infection/

And here is the link to the study

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

And it was the author’s opinion based on this research that

reasonable and persuasive cases can be made both for and against the use of masks in the healthy population. But by replacing individual choice with collective mandates, public officials have politicized the issue and polluted the science. For example, scientists have faced retraction demands on research that concluded mask-for-all policies were not based on sound data. Additionally, the Danish study appears to have been delayed because medical journals were wary of its findings.Few of us—even medical professionals, it seems—are able to answer with any degree of certainty whether masks are an effective form of protection against the coronavirus. Some see this as a reason to force everyone to wear a mask. Yet in reality, the uncertainty is all the more reason the decision should be left to individuals.

We aren’t even talking about cloth masks, this is medical grade masks in this study.

However the CDC is also going out of their way to support cloth masks and say they even protect the wearer, in this updated scientific brief.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -cov2.html

I anticipate over the next 24 months we will see many more developments in the mask debate. However based on my readings of research on masks usually geared towards influenza I do think that mandatory mask policy is government over-reach, and is causing more harm by driving fear and hysteria. It also gives people a false sense of safety. I have a family member who is certain their mask protects them because it is surgical grade. No study clearly shows a level of efficacy to these masks.
I think the reality is the only way we would be in a measurable level of efficacy is if we got into the world of respirators. If covid is spreading by aerosol and surface contact, masks could just make the problem worse if we are touching our faces all the time adjusting our masks.

Is it unfair for me to say this is government over-reach and masks should be optional for those who feel safer? Not sure why this is even a debate. We have mandatory masks throughout Ontario, how many people are still getting covid while following mask guidelines? And the argument that it’s better than nothing, may not be true. Maybe wearing a masks and not physically distancing because you feel safe, causes infections. Maybe people removing masks and touching their faces has caused infections. So wearing masks is not better than doing nothing just because you feel like it’s a simple and easy thing to do. At least you should let people make this decision for themselves.

I have so many questions and no answers. Such as if medical grade masks work better, why aren’t these issued to everyone? Why nearly a year into this are we still saying we have shortages of masks? China builds a hospital in 6 days, Canada in 300 days says keep going to fabric land and make something to cover your nose mouth and chin... oh and now do 3 layers and put a filter... Com’on man! This is all just such nonsense. My other question would be why haven’t we ramped up staffing and hospital beds at our hospitals. Why does Doug ford think the logical thing to do is lockdown, rather than keep the economy going and hospital beds available... are we just can kickers? No one can honestly tell me they think we are doing a good job.

[marlin]

The CDC brief is by a US government department and cites 45 studies to back up its recommendations.

The article you posted above it cites one study, and is written by a privately run libertarian think-tank. I feel it's important to mention that the author's opinion mentioned above was from the FEE.org article's author, not the study that it cited. The Danish study referenced closes with these two paragraphs - I've underlined portions, but I feel it's all worth reading:

Our results suggest that the recommendation to wear a surgical mask when outside the home among others did not reduce, at conventional levels of statistical significance, the incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection in mask wearers in a setting where social distancing and other public health measures were in effect, mask recommendations were not among those measures, and community use of masks was uncommon. Yet, the findings were inconclusive and cannot definitively exclude a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection of mask wearers in such a setting. It is important to emphasize that this trial did not address the effects of masks as source control or as protection in settings where social distancing and other public health measures are not in effect.

Reduction in release of virus from infected persons into the environment may be the mechanism for mitigation of transmission in communities where mask use is common or mandated, as noted in observational studies. Thus, these findings do not provide data on the effectiveness of widespread mask wearing in the community in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections. They do, however, offer evidence about the degree of protection mask wearers can anticipate in a setting where others are not wearing masks and where other public health measures, including social distancing, are in effect. The findings also suggest that persons should not abandon other COVID-19 safety measures regardless of the use of masks. While we await additional data to inform mask recommendations, communities must balance the seriousness of COVID-19, uncertainty about the degree of source control and protective effect, and the absence of data suggesting serious adverse effects of masks.

The CDC's conclusion is, in part:

The relationship between source control and personal protection is likely complementary and possibly synergistic, so that individual benefit increases with increasing community mask use. Further research is needed to expand the evidence base for the protective effect of cloth masks and in particular to identify the combinations of materials that maximize both their blocking and filtering effectiveness, as well as fit, comfort, durability, and consumer appeal. Adopting universal masking policies can help avert future lockdowns, especially if combined with other non-pharmaceutical interventions such as social distancing, hand hygiene, and adequate ventilation.

The problem at hand is that when it comes to community disease control, any strategy is only as effective as the population's efforts to implement it. The Danish study emphasizes that it was based on a smaller subset of a population wearing masks vs. the majority not doing so, while the CDC's conclusion is that available data points to an increase in overall effectiveness when a higher percentage of the population participates in mask wearing, and more importantly, the other basic measures that people can (and should!) take in conjunction.

It is very easy to pick a few lines from a single study out of context and claim that it's scientific proof of one's desired point. I don't see how one can make claims from this one study (that itself came to no definitive conclusion), while at the same time ignoring data from 45 other studies and the CDC's conclusion that points to them at the very least being useful in conjunction with other measures. If people are ignoring the other measures, then that's not a mask problem. That's a 'people are stupid' problem, and should be rectified by, instead of attacking masks and the evolving data surrounding them, pointing out and correcting those people's irresponsible behaviour. Letting those same people instead make random, poorly informed decisions about what precautions they take, regardless of their impact on others, and expecting that to somehow pan out better for the populace doesn't seem logical to me.

If, eventually, it can be conclusively proven that people wearing masks worsened the pandemic, then by all means get the tar and feathers for me. Just wash your hands first...

[av8ts]

They are wearing the mask for your safety. But your too stupid to know it.

Why can't I worry about my own safety myself? Why should they worry about it? It's like me telling smokers not to smoke, because I'm concerned with their safety so they don't get cancer.

No it’s like you not blowing smoke in their face because your concerned about their safety