Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[sportingrifle]

Cndnaviator…..
I would you call you out for being the ultimate hypocrite except it wouldn’t be fair as you probably weren’t around when the race to the bottom started.

And who started it? The predecessor to Jazz who was constantly offering to fly the CRJ cheaper than AC pilots were. Pilots who had to give up massive concessions for many years because of it.

Sorry not much sympathy, Jazz pilots are simply reaping what the generation before them sowed. It was always a fun race till the shoe was on the other foot.

[hithere]

Well none of these “virtual” positions would/could be left seat, because one would have to pass the command course, which is by no means guaranteed. But 777 FO is still a hell of a lot more more money than one would ever make at Jazz so that salary alone would make AC management wish they’d better handled this situation

[hithere]

Cndnaviator…..
I would you call you out for being the ultimate hypocrite except it wouldn’t be fair as you probably weren’t around when the race to the bottom started.

And who started it? The predecessor to Jazz who was constantly offering to fly the CRJ chesper than AC. Whise pilots had to give up massive concessions for many years because of it.

Sorry not much sympathy, Jazz pilots are simply reaping what the generation before them sowed. It was always a fun race till the shoe was on the other foot.

Let me get this straight, the only legacy carrier to ever operate a 50 seat jet is giving the regional carrier a hard time about driving wages down? Ok then I guess you, in turn, weren’t around when Hollis Harris(then CEO of AC) made the decision to buy CRJs in the early-mid 1990s and played the mainline pilots off the regional pilots until the mainline pilots agreed to operate the CRJ at a low enough rate

[sportingrifle]

Imagine if every RJ pilot currently flying the airplane at Jazz had been hired to fly the airplane at AC. Think about that…because you own it.

Eventually the airplanes would almost assuradly have been operated by a regional carrier, but not after first depressing wages and working conditions for a decade. What Sky Regional and now PAL are doing to Jazz is EXACTLY what the predecessors to Jazz did to AC. Enjoy the race…

[cdnavater]

Imagine if every RJ pilot currently flying the airplane at Jazz had been hired to fly the airplane at AC. Think about that…because you own it.

Eventually the airplanes would almost assuradly have been operated by a regional carrier, but not after first depressing wages and working conditions for a decade. What Sky Regional and now PAL are doing to Jazz is EXACTLY what the predecessors to Jazz did to AC. Enjoy the race…

So, let me get this straight, you undercut Jazz pilots to fly the RJs that they ordered as a way to raise the wages!
Let me be clear, when you allowed AC to create SR, we were the highest paid regional pilots in North America but also almost certainly anywhere. We had just voted 98% to strike from 97% of the pilots, I’m pretty fucken sure I know who to blame for the race and is isn’t us.
Try not to @#$! this up ok, I know history is not on your side but maybe now there are some smarter people in the room, dipshits like you can’t screw the pooch.

[Jfthepilot]

I like the idea mentioned earlier of giving all the jazz pilots a "virtual" seniority number equivalent to what they should have gotten, and forcing AC to pay them for the highest paying position that number could hold for the rest of their career. Doesn't matter what they actually hold, they could be RPs the rest of their career, since pay is only part of the equation they also are taking a lifestyle hit with a lower actual seniority. This way AC can have a constant reminder for the rest of these pilots careers of what happens when they break a deal. Everyone wins, except AC.

The issue with this is Virtual Seniority doesn't fix the quality of life for the next 30-40 years of that said pilot.

CANLII 61972

I must reject a blind adherence to the concept of seniority as an unalterable ranking by date of hire. This is so because the value of one's seniority, i.e. the extent to which one's seniority provides access to these benefits/protections, is not depen­dent upon one's date of hire but rather upon one's relative position on the seniority list.

CANLII 62066

For pilots in particular, seniority ranking is their life. It deter­mines what aircraft they fly, and thus what salary they earn. It determines their choice of bases; and once at that base, it determines their "domicile rights"; i.e., their ability to exercise their preferences as to monthly bid routes, and to vacation and time off generally.

You need to give them their seniority of 2022, no hesitation about that. The only discussion that should be happening is how to "compensate" the ones that will lose a few spots on the Master Seniority List by rearranging 285 pilots up the list.

[PostmasterGeneral]

The seniority number you have is what is assigned to you when you are hired at AC. Pretty simple. Seems to be a lot of people in this thread who don't understand that.

[Nick678]

The seniority number you have is what is assigned to you when you are hired at AC. Pretty simple. Seems to be a lot of people in this thread who don't understand that.

Those pilots at Canadian got their seniority# from their first day at AC?

[Ratherbe]

Imagine if every RJ pilot currently flying the airplane at Jazz had been hired to fly the airplane at AC. Think about that…because you own it.

Eventually the airplanes would almost assuradly have been operated by a regional carrier, but not after first depressing wages and working conditions for a decade. What Sky Regional and now PAL are doing to Jazz is EXACTLY what the predecessors to Jazz did to AC. Enjoy the race…

So, let me get this straight, you undercut Jazz pilots to fly the RJs that they ordered as a way to raise the wages!
Let me be clear, when you allowed AC to create SR, we were the highest paid regional pilots in North America but also almost certainly anywhere. We had just voted 98% to strike from 97% of the pilots, I’m pretty fucken sure I know who to blame for the race and is isn’t us.
Try not to @#$! this up ok, I know history is not on your side but maybe now there are some smarter people in the room, dipshits like you can’t screw the pooch.

quote=cdnavater post_id=1302428 time=1711421831 user_id=78357]

Imagine if every RJ pilot currently flying the airplane at Jazz had been hired to fly the airplane at AC. Think about that…because you own it.

Eventually the airplanes would almost assuradly have been operated by a regional carrier, but not after first depressing wages and working conditions for a decade. What Sky Regional and now PAL are doing to Jazz is EXACTLY what the predecessors to Jazz did to AC. Enjoy the race…

So, let me get this straight, you undercut Jazz pilots to fly the RJs that they ordered as a way to raise the wages!
Let me be clear, when you allowed AC to create SR, we were the highest paid regional pilots in North America but also almost certainly anywhere. We had just voted 98% to strike from 97% of the pilots, I’m pretty fucken sure I know who to blame for the race and is isn’t us.
Try not to @#$! this up ok, I know history is not on your side but maybe now there are some smarter people in the room, dipshits like you can’t screw the pooch.
[/quote]

If you’re going to try to re-write history you need to look back a little further. This is about corporate business trends and how the pilot unions react to them.

In the 1980’s the trend was outsourcing. It resulted in the layoffs for mainline pilots and huge growth for regional pilots.

“Traditional outsourcing is where a business moves an operation previously conducted internally to an external supplier. This early outsourcing strategy was based on the transaction cost approach where the focus was on sourcing products or services from external providers if it is cost effective to do so. Under this approach, the main objective for outsourcing is to reduce cost and maximize profit.”

When AC ordered the CL-65’s everyone assumed they would end up at the connectors but HH and CALPA ran the formula pay numbers and it made more sense to have them at mainline. It also respected LOU 17 - 70 seats no jets and brought mainline pilots back to work.

The connectors continued their attempts to secure more flying offering to fly the A319’s and B757’s at low rates. They held an unsuccessful strike trying to secure mainline seniority. They used their exclusive position as our sole regional airline failing to appreciated that it was at the blessing of ACPA. That exclusivity clause was to protect ACPA pilots not to benefit Jazz pilots. When the clause was removed, to update our scope language, it allowed AC to level the playing field with US carriers which had already secured CPAs with multiple regionals - the newest corporate trend.

Now the corporate trend is domestic codesharing with regionals. ALPA endorses pattern bargaining and this is the pattern in the US with regionals flying for several mainline carriers.

[truedude]

Imagine if every RJ pilot currently flying the airplane at Jazz had been hired to fly the airplane at AC. Think about that…because you own it.

Eventually the airplanes would almost assuradly have been operated by a regional carrier, but not after first depressing wages and working conditions for a decade. What Sky Regional and now PAL are doing to Jazz is EXACTLY what the predecessors to Jazz did to AC. Enjoy the race…

So, let me get this straight, you undercut Jazz pilots to fly the RJs that they ordered as a way to raise the wages!
Let me be clear, when you allowed AC to create SR, we were the highest paid regional pilots in North America but also almost certainly anywhere. We had just voted 98% to strike from 97% of the pilots, I’m pretty fucken sure I know who to blame for the race and is isn’t us.
Try not to @#$! this up ok, I know history is not on your side but maybe now there are some smarter people in the room, dipshits like you can’t screw the pooch.

quote=cdnavater post_id=1302428 time=1711421831 user_id=78357]

Imagine if every RJ pilot currently flying the airplane at Jazz had been hired to fly the airplane at AC. Think about that…because you own it.

Eventually the airplanes would almost assuradly have been operated by a regional carrier, but not after first depressing wages and working conditions for a decade. What Sky Regional and now PAL are doing to Jazz is EXACTLY what the predecessors to Jazz did to AC. Enjoy the race…

So, let me get this straight, you undercut Jazz pilots to fly the RJs that they ordered as a way to raise the wages!
Let me be clear, when you allowed AC to create SR, we were the highest paid regional pilots in North America but also almost certainly anywhere. We had just voted 98% to strike from 97% of the pilots, I’m pretty fucken sure I know who to blame for the race and is isn’t us.
Try not to @#$! this up ok, I know history is not on your side but maybe now there are some smarter people in the room, dipshits like you can’t screw the pooch.

If you’re going to try to re-write history you need to look back a little further. This is about corporate business trends and how the pilot unions react to them.

In the 1980’s the trend was outsourcing. It resulted in the layoffs for mainline pilots and huge growth for regional pilots.

“Traditional outsourcing is where a business moves an operation previously conducted internally to an external supplier. This early outsourcing strategy was based on the transaction cost approach where the focus was on sourcing products or services from external providers if it is cost effective to do so. Under this approach, the main objective for outsourcing is to reduce cost and maximize profit.”

When AC ordered the CL-65’s everyone assumed they would end up at the connectors but HH and CALPA ran the formula pay numbers and it made more sense to have them at mainline. It also respected LOU 17 - 70 seats no jets and brought mainline pilots back to work.

The connectors continued their attempts to secure more flying offering to fly the A319’s and B757’s at low rates. They held an unsuccessful strike trying to secure mainline seniority. They used their exclusive position as our sole regional airline failing to appreciated that it was at the blessing of ACPA. That exclusivity clause was to protect ACPA pilots not to benefit Jazz pilots. When the clause was removed, to update our scope language, it allowed AC to level the playing field with US carriers which had already secured CPAs with multiple regionals - the newest corporate trend.

Now the corporate trend is domestic codesharing with regionals. ALPA endorses pattern bargaining and this is the pattern in the US with regionals flying for several mainline carriers.
[/quote]

This is some amazing revisionist history. What did Air Canada pilots achieve for eliminating the exclusivity clause regarding tier 2 flying. Absolutely nothing. But they did manage to help keep pilot wages in Canada suppressed, their own included.

As for what happened in the 90's. You seemed to leave out an important detail as to what led to that strike. They had already achieved mainline seniority, but Air Canada pilots didn't like the result of the arbitrator handed down, and as a result left CALPA to form ACPA as a way of getting out of an arbitration they had initially agreed too. Now there may have been solid reasons for that, but you left out a lot of details in your recap of history.

And as far as this entire multiple CPA garbage, how did that help any pilot anywhere in Canada, including Air Canada pilots. Pull your head out of your ass.

[PostmasterGeneral]

The seniority number you have is what is assigned to you when you are hired at AC. Pretty simple. Seems to be a lot of people in this thread who don't understand that.

Those pilots at Canadian got their seniority# from their first day at AC?

That was a merger between two airlines. You’re asking for seniority at an airline you don’t work at, what planet are you on man?

[pipedream?]

We’re always separate companies till it’s an AC pilot asking for the jumpseat home then getting pissed when a baby face jazz pilot gets it instead lol…it might be a shitty contract but it’s a contract none the less between two parties and it was violated and massive damages to individuals careers have been done and resolution needs to be found. No different then if you wanted to leave your Navajo job in shoe lookout early, you paid out your bond, negotiated a deal or the company sent the collectors after you.

[pipedream?]

Would Jazz pilots being paid based on their yos at Jazz or slotted into a “relative seniority” have any effect on current AC pilots? Genuine question.

[Nick678]

The seniority number you have is what is assigned to you when you are hired at AC. Pretty simple. Seems to be a lot of people in this thread who don't understand that.

Those pilots at Canadian got their seniority# from their first day at AC?

That was a merger between two airlines. You’re asking for seniority at an airline you don’t work at, what planet are you on man?

The planet where a CDN pilot showed up for his first day at AC with seniority. This countered your point. It’s unlikely for jazz but not impossible.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Those pilots at Canadian got their seniority# from their first day at AC?

That was a merger between two airlines. You’re asking for seniority at an airline you don’t work at, what planet are you on man?

The planet where a CDN pilot showed up for his first day at AC with seniority. This countered your point. It’s unlikely for jazz but not impossible.

Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.

Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.

[truedude]

That was a merger between two airlines. You’re asking for seniority at an airline you don’t work at, what planet are you on man?

The planet where a CDN pilot showed up for his first day at AC with seniority. This countered your point. It’s unlikely for jazz but not impossible.

Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.

Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.

You can't leave Jazz if already at Jazz with th3 goal of going to AC. AC has been blacklisting anyone who tries that for 2 years.

[pipedream?]

That was a merger between two airlines. You’re asking for seniority at an airline you don’t work at, what planet are you on man?

The planet where a CDN pilot showed up for his first day at AC with seniority. This countered your point. It’s unlikely for jazz but not impossible.

Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.

Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.

Except it is different… AC doesn’t own 10% of WestJet or flair or swoop or Pasco ect…. those pilots don’t fly Air Canada passengers, in an airplane that says Air Canada on the side wearing an Air Canada uniform, under a contract with Air Canada. We tried to get a pay raise and our first raise was approved by our company but turned down by AC.. We’re separate companies only when it benefits them and yet, they control every aspect of our jobs and our futures. This is why we have grievances filed against them.

[vanislepilot]

The planet where a CDN pilot showed up for his first day at AC with seniority. This countered your point. It’s unlikely for jazz but not impossible.

Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.

Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.

Except it is different… AC doesn’t own 10% of WestJet or flair or swoop or Pasco ect…. those pilots don’t fly Air Canada passengers, in an airplane that says Air Canada on the side wearing an Air Canada uniform, under a contract with Air Canada. We tried to get a pay raise and our first raise was approved by our company but turned down by AC.. We’re separate companies only when it benefits them and yet, they control every aspect of our jobs and our futures. This is why we have grievances filed against them.

So then grieve! But don’t come after other pilots seniority, because the only thing that does is hurt your fellow pilots. Who will then probably always look at you with a sour taste in their mouth. It is NOT their fault they got hired before you. If you think the best course of action is to displace another pilot out of a type or more importantly a base then you’re just not thinking straight.

I’d like you to go to a current pilot with 3 kids who’s been here for 6 months, commuting on reserve to a crash pad in Toronto, that he won’t be getting Vancouver on the next bid because you are entitled to it day one and you will be taking that spot. Go ahead and say it to his/her face!

[PostmasterGeneral]

This entire argument is predicated on the assumption that it was AC who didn’t honor the 60% figure. What if it was Jazz who put a stop to it, so they actually had pilots to fly their airplanes? (The more likely scenario.) in that case, why would the pilots have any recourse against AC whatsoever?

[truedude]

This entire argument is predicated on the assumption that it was AC who didn’t honor the 60% figure. What if it was Jazz who put a stop to it, so they actually had pilots to fly their airplanes? (The more likely scenario.) in that case, why would the pilots have any recourse against AC whatsoever?

It was not Jazz! Amd even if it were in your imagined scenario, AC signed an agreement stating 60% would come from Jazz. Jazz has no say in who AC hires. So it was still AC that failed to follow the terms of the agreement they signed.

[GodlvlPilot]

Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.

Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.

Except it is different… AC doesn’t own 10% of WestJet or flair or swoop or Pasco ect…. those pilots don’t fly Air Canada passengers, in an airplane that says Air Canada on the side wearing an Air Canada uniform, under a contract with Air Canada. We tried to get a pay raise and our first raise was approved by our company but turned down by AC.. We’re separate companies only when it benefits them and yet, they control every aspect of our jobs and our futures. This is why we have grievances filed against them.

So then grieve! But don’t come after other pilots seniority, because the only thing that does is hurt your fellow pilots. Who will then probably always look at you with a sour taste in their mouth. It is NOT their fault they got hired before you. If you think the best course of action is to displace another pilot out of a type or more importantly a base then you’re just not thinking straight.

I’d like you to go to a current pilot with 3 kids who’s been here for 6 months, commuting on reserve to a crash pad in Toronto, that he won’t be getting Vancouver on the next bid because you are entitled to it day one and you will be taking that spot. Go ahead and say it to his/her face!

See you say fellow pilots. But that is a good example of when it's beneficial to you. You want me to say that. Well say it with truth. And after hearing what AC pilots have been saying to experienced jazz pilots and the way they are treating them I wouldn't be surprised if there were several that would happily volunteer to tell people.

[truedude]

Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.

Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.

Except it is different… AC doesn’t own 10% of WestJet or flair or swoop or Pasco ect…. those pilots don’t fly Air Canada passengers, in an airplane that says Air Canada on the side wearing an Air Canada uniform, under a contract with Air Canada. We tried to get a pay raise and our first raise was approved by our company but turned down by AC.. We’re separate companies only when it benefits them and yet, they control every aspect of our jobs and our futures. This is why we have grievances filed against them.

So then grieve! But don’t come after other pilots seniority, because the only thing that does is hurt your fellow pilots. Who will then probably always look at you with a sour taste in their mouth. It is NOT their fault they got hired before you. If you think the best course of action is to displace another pilot out of a type or more importantly a base then you’re just not thinking straight.

I’d like you to go to a current pilot with 3 kids who’s been here for 6 months, commuting on reserve to a crash pad in Toronto, that he won’t be getting Vancouver on the next bid because you are entitled to it day one and you will be taking that spot. Go ahead and say it to his/her face!

Anyone who went to AC in the last year knew full well this was a live issue and major bone of contention between Jazz pilots and AC. It was foolish for anyone to beleive Jazz pilots weren't going to respond. Had AC agreed to the contract Jazz pilots negotiatiated with Jazz, then Jazz would have unlikely filed anything. But AC once again screwed around. If you want to blame someone, blame AC management, not the pilots that came from Jazz that were royally screwed over, and are simply seeking to make things right.

[PostmasterGeneral]

How do you know it wasn't Jazz?

[pipedream?]

How do you know it wasn't Jazz?

Because AC advised us they were pausing hiring from Jazz to “protect the AC network”

[pipedream?]

Proves my point even further. Canadian pilots became AC pilots when they merged. AC is not merging with Jazz, it's no different than a pilot coming from WJ or Flair. Your start date is the day you accrue seniority.

Look, if you want to work at AC so badly, you can get there much faster through porter or WJ. Maybe give that a try if the jazz thing isn't panning out.

Except it is different… AC doesn’t own 10% of WestJet or flair or swoop or Pasco ect…. those pilots don’t fly Air Canada passengers, in an airplane that says Air Canada on the side wearing an Air Canada uniform, under a contract with Air Canada. We tried to get a pay raise and our first raise was approved by our company but turned down by AC.. We’re separate companies only when it benefits them and yet, they control every aspect of our jobs and our futures. This is why we have grievances filed against them.

So then grieve! But don’t come after other pilots seniority, because the only thing that does is hurt your fellow pilots. Who will then probably always look at you with a sour taste in their mouth. It is NOT their fault they got hired before you. If you think the best course of action is to displace another pilot out of a type or more importantly a base then you’re just not thinking straight.

I’d like you to go to a current pilot with 3 kids who’s been here for 6 months, commuting on reserve to a crash pad in Toronto, that he won’t be getting Vancouver on the next bid because you are entitled to it day one and you will be taking that spot. Go ahead and say it to his/her face!

Well by that same logic, tell that to Jazz pilots with kids and mortgages who were contractually supposed to flow in 2022 and 2023 who have been held behind while OTS hires with their wet 737 ratings or 703 command time are now senior to us as we continue to “protect the AC network”. You can absolutely bet if any of us hired precovid and even a few post covid classes knew AC wasn’t going to honour the commitment, we would have stayed at our 703 gigs or gone and flown westjet, flair, swoop, transat… the list goes on. As stated many times before, Jazz pilots aren’t trying to hurt any pilot at AC, so we can stop with that rhetoric. We simply want AC to be held accountable for YEARS of mistreatment.