“Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
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Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
I know one guy considering going back to the north.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
Rumors, all Rumors. The FOAG hasn’t benchmarked this year and salaries haven’t been discussed.cjp wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 10:54 amHearing it from FOs on the line, I think they are more connected to the rail than I. I wouldn't believe them if the number I was hearing wasn't so consistent. Otherwise no official knowledge. That would be an interesting number to target - be nice if they could pull the trigger sooner rather than later.Chaxterium wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:15 am I mean I definitely see a bump coming once the AC contract is done but I don't expect it to be anywhere near that amount.
I certainly wouldn't complain though.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
Pay rates were discussed in mediation. They have not been discussed yet in conciliation. That is according to the newsletters.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
Unfounded rumors are the spice of life.PRM1 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 4:39 amRumors, all Rumors. The FOAG hasn’t benchmarked this year and salaries haven’t been discussed.cjp wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 10:54 amHearing it from FOs on the line, I think they are more connected to the rail than I. I wouldn't believe them if the number I was hearing wasn't so consistent. Otherwise no official knowledge. That would be an interesting number to target - be nice if they could pull the trigger sooner rather than later.Chaxterium wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2024 9:15 am I mean I definitely see a bump coming once the AC contract is done but I don't expect it to be anywhere near that amount.
I certainly wouldn't complain though.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
I do not deny any of your complaints, grievances and observations and instead of dissecting your argument I will leave it as this: All I am asking is that pilots do not jeopardize or even diminish the standard of safety that is promised by our profession. Blaming someone else is not good enough.altiplano wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 10:45 amYou can just as easily flip that coin.GTFA wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 8:47 amJust do what is necessary. Who decides what that is? Hawkeyes, fuel? If you cared before but don't care now, did you really care before? Or were you just doing it for the money? If this is any indication of a spreading attitude, it is time for professional pilots to dig deep and consider their motivation for being a professional pilot. Everything that a pilot does that is related to the operation of their flight can have an effect on safety. Not being a productive part of the flight Ops team can lead to failure of other team members with unforeseen consequences.
Please do not use safety as leverage in bargaining. It is, of course a meaningful argument but not a practical act. If you wish to withhold your professional services, then do that, don't come to work.
Management shows us the absolute minimum that they possibly can - they always "work to rule" on what's in the contract. As soon as we said we wanted to negotiate they pulled our passes, cancelled 2% retroactive mpu uplifts for the pension, and cancelled another scheduled 2% mpu increase and 2% pay increase - then they didn't come to the table until they threatened to lock us out last February.
Meanwhile scheduling, vacation slots, time off, etc. they all leverage to the min/max. In fact they go below the minimum when they short us pay and per diems every month - it's a thing, ask any AC pilot - every month. They mis award flying, they don't respect seniority, don't book DH priority properly, forget to load crew meals, don't release when the contract says that they should, don't create efficient pairings, they violate our contract regularly in all corners. They are running a whole airline right now (rouge) in violation of the contract and are about to do it again when they relaunch 767 PAX service. They lie to you, they have schedulers that will yell at you and try to convince you to work illegally, they have no regard for ethics, health, or safety - lip service only.
When we have a concern it's always a dragged out grievance, they fight us every time.
They've defined when I'm productive. That's when I'm paid. Used to be doors closed to doors opened... then they thought they'd chisel us a few more minutes pay away and changed it brakes off to brakes set. They don't even let me release the brakes when we're sitting ready and there's an airport or ATC or weather delay.
Despite that we show up early and do our flight planning and aircraft preparation with no pay, we would always be ready to take the brakes off on schedule... were it only if everyone else on the team supported us in doing that. Poor planning is the big culprit, that's an executive's decision. No plane, no ground crew, no gate, unrealistic turn time, unrealistic duty day, illegal crew rest, etc. etc. Do you wonder why AC is always the worst on time? Look at their published city pair flight times and compare it to another airline - they plan their flights based on being late 80% of the time because they are cheap.
All of that is a manager's choice and it snowballs and they constantly seek to download the resulting problems onto us to deal with for free when there are literally 10,000+ people sitting in offices and paid to do it. They're busy doing retirement cakes and swapping muffin recipes though... I honestly don't think some of these people even know we run an airline here.
Everything now, I ask myself, is this my problem? My crews problem? If it isn't, I don't let them make it my problem, why should I? The fact is I have enough problems to deal with here as is, and they don't care about my or my crews problems.
Management's job is to take care of the employees, make it easy for them to look after your clients, that's how you manage. But they aren't taking care of the pilots at this airline and it shows. The poor pay and degraded conditions, new hires unable to afford a basic apartment in their base, the complete lack of work/life balance for most of the list is well documented on this site. They are constantly pressuring to take more.
Love my airline, hate the management. That's the reality here.
302 days without a contract.
Keep the faith, do the right thing.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
No one in this thread is suggesting doing anything that might compromise safety. You're the only one insinuating that. Doing the bare minimum means doing what is necessary to maintain the SOP standard and nothing more. If that compromises safety, then the company needs to look at its processes and procedures rather than blame the pilots.GTFA wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 10:03 amI do not deny any of your complaints, grievances and observations and instead of dissecting your argument I will leave it as this: All I am asking is that pilots do not jeopardize or even diminish the standard of safety that is promised by our profession. Blaming someone else is not good enough.altiplano wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 10:45 amYou can just as easily flip that coin.GTFA wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 8:47 am
Just do what is necessary. Who decides what that is? Hawkeyes, fuel? If you cared before but don't care now, did you really care before? Or were you just doing it for the money? If this is any indication of a spreading attitude, it is time for professional pilots to dig deep and consider their motivation for being a professional pilot. Everything that a pilot does that is related to the operation of their flight can have an effect on safety. Not being a productive part of the flight Ops team can lead to failure of other team members with unforeseen consequences.
Please do not use safety as leverage in bargaining. It is, of course a meaningful argument but not a practical act. If you wish to withhold your professional services, then do that, don't come to work.
Management shows us the absolute minimum that they possibly can - they always "work to rule" on what's in the contract. As soon as we said we wanted to negotiate they pulled our passes, cancelled 2% retroactive mpu uplifts for the pension, and cancelled another scheduled 2% mpu increase and 2% pay increase - then they didn't come to the table until they threatened to lock us out last February.
Meanwhile scheduling, vacation slots, time off, etc. they all leverage to the min/max. In fact they go below the minimum when they short us pay and per diems every month - it's a thing, ask any AC pilot - every month. They mis award flying, they don't respect seniority, don't book DH priority properly, forget to load crew meals, don't release when the contract says that they should, don't create efficient pairings, they violate our contract regularly in all corners. They are running a whole airline right now (rouge) in violation of the contract and are about to do it again when they relaunch 767 PAX service. They lie to you, they have schedulers that will yell at you and try to convince you to work illegally, they have no regard for ethics, health, or safety - lip service only.
When we have a concern it's always a dragged out grievance, they fight us every time.
They've defined when I'm productive. That's when I'm paid. Used to be doors closed to doors opened... then they thought they'd chisel us a few more minutes pay away and changed it brakes off to brakes set. They don't even let me release the brakes when we're sitting ready and there's an airport or ATC or weather delay.
Despite that we show up early and do our flight planning and aircraft preparation with no pay, we would always be ready to take the brakes off on schedule... were it only if everyone else on the team supported us in doing that. Poor planning is the big culprit, that's an executive's decision. No plane, no ground crew, no gate, unrealistic turn time, unrealistic duty day, illegal crew rest, etc. etc. Do you wonder why AC is always the worst on time? Look at their published city pair flight times and compare it to another airline - they plan their flights based on being late 80% of the time because they are cheap.
All of that is a manager's choice and it snowballs and they constantly seek to download the resulting problems onto us to deal with for free when there are literally 10,000+ people sitting in offices and paid to do it. They're busy doing retirement cakes and swapping muffin recipes though... I honestly don't think some of these people even know we run an airline here.
Everything now, I ask myself, is this my problem? My crews problem? If it isn't, I don't let them make it my problem, why should I? The fact is I have enough problems to deal with here as is, and they don't care about my or my crews problems.
Management's job is to take care of the employees, make it easy for them to look after your clients, that's how you manage. But they aren't taking care of the pilots at this airline and it shows. The poor pay and degraded conditions, new hires unable to afford a basic apartment in their base, the complete lack of work/life balance for most of the list is well documented on this site. They are constantly pressuring to take more.
Love my airline, hate the management. That's the reality here.
302 days without a contract.
Keep the faith, do the right thing.
"Keep the faith, do the right thing." -Once again you sound like a company shill who's completely out of touch with reality. Get bent.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
The suggestion that saving this company from it's own self induced operational incompetence and bad planning day in and day out has anything to do with safety is strawman.GTFA wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 10:03 amI do not deny any of your complaints, grievances and observations and instead of dissecting your argument I will leave it as this: All I am asking is that pilots do not jeopardize or even diminish the standard of safety that is promised by our profession. Blaming someone else is not good enough.altiplano wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 10:45 amYou can just as easily flip that coin.GTFA wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 8:47 am Just do what is necessary. Who decides what that is? Hawkeyes, fuel? If you cared before but don't care now, did you really care before? Or were you just doing it for the money? If this is any indication of a spreading attitude, it is time for professional pilots to dig deep and consider their motivation for being a professional pilot. Everything that a pilot does that is related to the operation of their flight can have an effect on safety. Not being a productive part of the flight Ops team can lead to failure of other team members with unforeseen consequences.
Please do not use safety as leverage in bargaining. It is, of course a meaningful argument but not a practical act. If you wish to withhold your professional services, then do that, don't come to work.
Management shows us the absolute minimum that they possibly can - they always "work to rule" on what's in the contract. As soon as we said we wanted to negotiate they pulled our passes, cancelled 2% retroactive mpu uplifts for the pension, and cancelled another scheduled 2% mpu increase and 2% pay increase - then they didn't come to the table until they threatened to lock us out last February.
Meanwhile scheduling, vacation slots, time off, etc. they all leverage to the min/max. In fact they go below the minimum when they short us pay and per diems every month - it's a thing, ask any AC pilot - every month. They mis award flying, they don't respect seniority, don't book DH priority properly, forget to load crew meals, don't release when the contract says that they should, don't create efficient pairings, they violate our contract regularly in all corners. They are running a whole airline right now (rouge) in violation of the contract and are about to do it again when they relaunch 767 PAX service. They lie to you, they have schedulers that will yell at you and try to convince you to work illegally, they have no regard for ethics, health, or safety - lip service only.
When we have a concern it's always a dragged out grievance, they fight us every time.
They've defined when I'm productive. That's when I'm paid. Used to be doors closed to doors opened... then they thought they'd chisel us a few more minutes pay away and changed it brakes off to brakes set. They don't even let me release the brakes when we're sitting ready and there's an airport or ATC or weather delay.
Despite that we show up early and do our flight planning and aircraft preparation with no pay, we would always be ready to take the brakes off on schedule... were it only if everyone else on the team supported us in doing that. Poor planning is the big culprit, that's an executive's decision. No plane, no ground crew, no gate, unrealistic turn time, unrealistic duty day, illegal crew rest, etc. etc. Do you wonder why AC is always the worst on time? Look at their published city pair flight times and compare it to another airline - they plan their flights based on being late 80% of the time because they are cheap.
All of that is a manager's choice and it snowballs and they constantly seek to download the resulting problems onto us to deal with for free when there are literally 10,000+ people sitting in offices and paid to do it. They're busy doing retirement cakes and swapping muffin recipes though... I honestly don't think some of these people even know we run an airline here.
Everything now, I ask myself, is this my problem? My crews problem? If it isn't, I don't let them make it my problem, why should I? The fact is I have enough problems to deal with here as is, and they don't care about my or my crews problems.
Management's job is to take care of the employees, make it easy for them to look after your clients, that's how you manage. But they aren't taking care of the pilots at this airline and it shows. The poor pay and degraded conditions, new hires unable to afford a basic apartment in their base, the complete lack of work/life balance for most of the list is well documented on this site. They are constantly pressuring to take more.
Love my airline, hate the management. That's the reality here.
302 days without a contract.
Keep the faith, do the right thing.
You can't play the reverse card on me on my this.
Distracting yourself from your own core function of aircraft operation to sort out their problems. Extending duty to overcome their shortcomings. Making it work to protect their operation.
This place is a 703 operator with Airbuses. We are the last line...
"Severe turbulence and windshear in SFO?"
"Go try an approach and go around if you have to. If you don't I'll write you up for discipline."
"CAT 3 Approach ban and 40 knot crosswinds in YYT, and severe turbulence?"
"Just fly out there and try."
"What do you mean a CARs max duty day? I was just supposed to do a one hour leg to YUL?"
"Now you're doing a Caribbean turn to CARs max duty, because maintenance and the other crew dutied out."
"But you've got it planned with a 30 minute ground turn? We can't make that."
"Yeah, well it's legal on paper, you can just extend UOC. Better hurry up and we're going to dock your pay if you say fatigue."
"What do you mean the YYZ red-eye? I'm just supposed to go to YYC."
"You have to be ready for any duty type at any time and if you refuse we'll book you off and dock your pay."
These are absolutely the things we should not be doing ever.
The safest thing is always to SET THE BRAKE OR HANG UP THE PHONE AND WALK.
You can bet that I will do the right thing.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
Now there is an argument I can get behind.altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 11:31 amGTFA wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 10:03 amI do not deny any of your complaints, grievances and observations and instead of dissecting your argument I will leave it as this: All I am asking is that pilots do not jeopardize or even diminish the standard of safety that is promised by our profession. Blaming someone else is not good enough.altiplano wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 10:45 am
... Management's job is to take care of the employees, make it easy for them to look after your clients, that's how you manage. But they aren't taking care of the pilots at this airline and it shows. The poor pay and degraded conditions, new hires unable to afford a basic apartment in their base, the complete lack of work/life balance for most of the list is well documented on this site. They are constantly pressuring to take more.
Love my airline, hate the management. That's the reality here.
302 days without a contract.
Keep the faith, do the right thing.
... Distracting yourself from your own core function of aircraft operation to sort out their problems. Extending duty to overcome their shortcomings. Making it work to protect their operation.
This place is a 703 operator with Airbuses. We are the last line...
"Severe turbulence and windshear in SFO?"
"Go try an approach and go around if you have to. If you don't I'll write you up for discipline."
"CAT 3 Approach ban and 40 knot crosswinds in YYT, and severe turbulence?"
"Just fly out there and try."
"What do you mean a CARs max duty day? I was just supposed to do a one hour leg to YUL?"
"Now you're doing a Caribbean turn to CARs max duty, because maintenance and the other crew dutied out."
"But you've got it planned with a 30 minute ground turn? We can't make that."
"Yeah, well it's legal on paper, you can just extend UOC. Better hurry up and we're going to dock your pay if you say fatigue."
"What do you mean the YYZ red-eye? I'm just supposed to go to YYC."
"You have to be ready for any duty type at any time and if you refuse we'll book you off and dock your pay."
These are absolutely the things we should not be doing ever.
The safest thing is always to SET THE BRAKE OR HANG UP THE PHONE AND WALK.
You can bet that I will do the right thing.
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Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
How often do these happen?altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 11:31 amThe suggestion that saving this company from it's own self induced operational incompetence and bad planning day in and day out has anything to do with safety is strawman.GTFA wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 10:03 amI do not deny any of your complaints, grievances and observations and instead of dissecting your argument I will leave it as this: All I am asking is that pilots do not jeopardize or even diminish the standard of safety that is promised by our profession. Blaming someone else is not good enough.altiplano wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 10:45 am
You can just as easily flip that coin.
Management shows us the absolute minimum that they possibly can - they always "work to rule" on what's in the contract. As soon as we said we wanted to negotiate they pulled our passes, cancelled 2% retroactive mpu uplifts for the pension, and cancelled another scheduled 2% mpu increase and 2% pay increase - then they didn't come to the table until they threatened to lock us out last February.
Meanwhile scheduling, vacation slots, time off, etc. they all leverage to the min/max. In fact they go below the minimum when they short us pay and per diems every month - it's a thing, ask any AC pilot - every month. They mis award flying, they don't respect seniority, don't book DH priority properly, forget to load crew meals, don't release when the contract says that they should, don't create efficient pairings, they violate our contract regularly in all corners. They are running a whole airline right now (rouge) in violation of the contract and are about to do it again when they relaunch 767 PAX service. They lie to you, they have schedulers that will yell at you and try to convince you to work illegally, they have no regard for ethics, health, or safety - lip service only.
When we have a concern it's always a dragged out grievance, they fight us every time.
They've defined when I'm productive. That's when I'm paid. Used to be doors closed to doors opened... then they thought they'd chisel us a few more minutes pay away and changed it brakes off to brakes set. They don't even let me release the brakes when we're sitting ready and there's an airport or ATC or weather delay.
Despite that we show up early and do our flight planning and aircraft preparation with no pay, we would always be ready to take the brakes off on schedule... were it only if everyone else on the team supported us in doing that. Poor planning is the big culprit, that's an executive's decision. No plane, no ground crew, no gate, unrealistic turn time, unrealistic duty day, illegal crew rest, etc. etc. Do you wonder why AC is always the worst on time? Look at their published city pair flight times and compare it to another airline - they plan their flights based on being late 80% of the time because they are cheap.
All of that is a manager's choice and it snowballs and they constantly seek to download the resulting problems onto us to deal with for free when there are literally 10,000+ people sitting in offices and paid to do it. They're busy doing retirement cakes and swapping muffin recipes though... I honestly don't think some of these people even know we run an airline here.
Everything now, I ask myself, is this my problem? My crews problem? If it isn't, I don't let them make it my problem, why should I? The fact is I have enough problems to deal with here as is, and they don't care about my or my crews problems.
Management's job is to take care of the employees, make it easy for them to look after your clients, that's how you manage. But they aren't taking care of the pilots at this airline and it shows. The poor pay and degraded conditions, new hires unable to afford a basic apartment in their base, the complete lack of work/life balance for most of the list is well documented on this site. They are constantly pressuring to take more.
Love my airline, hate the management. That's the reality here.
302 days without a contract.
Keep the faith, do the right thing.
You can't play the reverse card on me on my this.
Distracting yourself from your own core function of aircraft operation to sort out their problems. Extending duty to overcome their shortcomings. Making it work to protect their operation.
This place is a 703 operator with Airbuses. We are the last line...
"Severe turbulence and windshear in SFO?"
"Go try an approach and go around if you have to. If you don't I'll write you up for discipline."
"CAT 3 Approach ban and 40 knot crosswinds in YYT, and severe turbulence?"
"Just fly out there and try."
"What do you mean a CARs max duty day? I was just supposed to do a one hour leg to YUL?"
"Now you're doing a Caribbean turn to CARs max duty, because maintenance and the other crew dutied out."
"But you've got it planned with a 30 minute ground turn? We can't make that."
"Yeah, well it's legal on paper, you can just extend UOC. Better hurry up and we're going to dock your pay if you say fatigue."
"What do you mean the YYZ red-eye? I'm just supposed to go to YYC."
"You have to be ready for any duty type at any time and if you refuse we'll book you off and dock your pay."
These are absolutely the things we should not be doing ever.
The safest thing is always to SET THE BRAKE OR HANG UP THE PHONE AND WALK.
You can bet that I will do the right thing.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
Pilots are saving the operation every day.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
Everyday. Although it wouldn’t say it’s “angry” pressure from the company. It’s more “sad puppy dog eyes” pressure. However, they bake these short comings in, and then beg for help.newlygrounded wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 3:27 pmHow often do these happen?altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 11:31 amThe suggestion that saving this company from it's own self induced operational incompetence and bad planning day in and day out has anything to do with safety is strawman.GTFA wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 10:03 am
I do not deny any of your complaints, grievances and observations and instead of dissecting your argument I will leave it as this: All I am asking is that pilots do not jeopardize or even diminish the standard of safety that is promised by our profession. Blaming someone else is not good enough.
Keep the faith, do the right thing.
You can't play the reverse card on me on my this.
Distracting yourself from your own core function of aircraft operation to sort out their problems. Extending duty to overcome their shortcomings. Making it work to protect their operation.
This place is a 703 operator with Airbuses. We are the last line...
"Severe turbulence and windshear in SFO?"
"Go try an approach and go around if you have to. If you don't I'll write you up for discipline."
"CAT 3 Approach ban and 40 knot crosswinds in YYT, and severe turbulence?"
"Just fly out there and try."
"What do you mean a CARs max duty day? I was just supposed to do a one hour leg to YUL?"
"Now you're doing a Caribbean turn to CARs max duty, because maintenance and the other crew dutied out."
"But you've got it planned with a 30 minute ground turn? We can't make that."
"Yeah, well it's legal on paper, you can just extend UOC. Better hurry up and we're going to dock your pay if you say fatigue."
"What do you mean the YYZ red-eye? I'm just supposed to go to YYC."
"You have to be ready for any duty type at any time and if you refuse we'll book you off and dock your pay."
These are absolutely the things we should not be doing ever.
The safest thing is always to SET THE BRAKE OR HANG UP THE PHONE AND WALK.
You can bet that I will do the right thing.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
To one of Altiplano’s points. A slight counter point, although I’m generally on side with what he says; I try not to get involved in commercial decisions. I’m happy to go where they want me to for the most part. I just bring lots of fuel with a good alternate or 2 and then go punch holes in the sky. I’m not doing anything stupid. Life is easier if we don’t try to micro manage the operations from a commercial standpoint. Just make sure it is safe and comfortable.
As I always say, I need more Multi Engine, Heavy jet, pic-x country time. Especially night. Thats the big one.
As I always say, I need more Multi Engine, Heavy jet, pic-x country time. Especially night. Thats the big one.
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Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
pic x country time ? are you soon to apply for your ATPL ?BTD wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 4:24 pm To one of Altiplano’s points. A slight counter point, although I’m generally on side with what he says; I try not to get involved in commercial decisions. I’m happy to go where they want me to for the most part. I just bring lots of fuel with a good alternate or 2 and then go punch holes in the sky. I’m not doing anything stupid. Life is easier if we don’t try to micro manage the operations from a commercial standpoint. Just make sure it is safe and comfortable.
As I always say, I need more Multi Engine, Heavy jet, pic-x country time. Especially night. Thats the big one.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
What’s an ATPL?Man_in_the_sky wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 4:33 pmpic x country time ? are you soon to apply for your ATPL ?BTD wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 4:24 pm To one of Altiplano’s points. A slight counter point, although I’m generally on side with what he says; I try not to get involved in commercial decisions. I’m happy to go where they want me to for the most part. I just bring lots of fuel with a good alternate or 2 and then go punch holes in the sky. I’m not doing anything stupid. Life is easier if we don’t try to micro manage the operations from a commercial standpoint. Just make sure it is safe and comfortable.
As I always say, I need more Multi Engine, Heavy jet, pic-x country time. Especially night. Thats the big one.
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 282
- Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:52 am
-
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2388
- Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
It's always fun spending someone else's money.
Gonna pay me more to almost assuredly land at the alternate? Sure, I'll give you a call asking for a hotel for me and my crew from the wrong airport. Good alternate, lots of fuel, talk to you then!
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
What’s the point of a Captain if not to prevent these totally avoidable and often predictable situations. Think of the passengers, do they want to be in Random, NB just because the SOC manager wanted you to launch? Of course he wants you to.
The SOC manager, by the way, is a yes-man. As is every other department, save (occasionally)MTC. You are the ONLY no-man (plural, the pilots) in the entire chain. Don’t cede that responsibility and duty lightly.
Sometimes it makes sense to launch, yes. But SOC. Have they ever said no, ever. To an MEL, to weather, to turbulence, to anything? Go go go. They have no skin in the game whatsoever, clock out and go home to their comfy bed at the end of their shift. You’re the Captain. Might only need to say no once a year. But when you need to, you must.
The SOC manager, by the way, is a yes-man. As is every other department, save (occasionally)MTC. You are the ONLY no-man (plural, the pilots) in the entire chain. Don’t cede that responsibility and duty lightly.
Sometimes it makes sense to launch, yes. But SOC. Have they ever said no, ever. To an MEL, to weather, to turbulence, to anything? Go go go. They have no skin in the game whatsoever, clock out and go home to their comfy bed at the end of their shift. You’re the Captain. Might only need to say no once a year. But when you need to, you must.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
When you say 'dock your pay', do you mean that you get paid for less credits because the trip didn't happen, or are there actual punitive fines/fees when you turn down a flight?altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 11:31 amThe suggestion that saving this company from it's own self induced operational incompetence and bad planning day in and day out has anything to do with safety is strawman.GTFA wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 10:03 amI do not deny any of your complaints, grievances and observations and instead of dissecting your argument I will leave it as this: All I am asking is that pilots do not jeopardize or even diminish the standard of safety that is promised by our profession. Blaming someone else is not good enough.altiplano wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 10:45 am
You can just as easily flip that coin.
Management shows us the absolute minimum that they possibly can - they always "work to rule" on what's in the contract. As soon as we said we wanted to negotiate they pulled our passes, cancelled 2% retroactive mpu uplifts for the pension, and cancelled another scheduled 2% mpu increase and 2% pay increase - then they didn't come to the table until they threatened to lock us out last February.
Meanwhile scheduling, vacation slots, time off, etc. they all leverage to the min/max. In fact they go below the minimum when they short us pay and per diems every month - it's a thing, ask any AC pilot - every month. They mis award flying, they don't respect seniority, don't book DH priority properly, forget to load crew meals, don't release when the contract says that they should, don't create efficient pairings, they violate our contract regularly in all corners. They are running a whole airline right now (rouge) in violation of the contract and are about to do it again when they relaunch 767 PAX service. They lie to you, they have schedulers that will yell at you and try to convince you to work illegally, they have no regard for ethics, health, or safety - lip service only.
When we have a concern it's always a dragged out grievance, they fight us every time.
They've defined when I'm productive. That's when I'm paid. Used to be doors closed to doors opened... then they thought they'd chisel us a few more minutes pay away and changed it brakes off to brakes set. They don't even let me release the brakes when we're sitting ready and there's an airport or ATC or weather delay.
Despite that we show up early and do our flight planning and aircraft preparation with no pay, we would always be ready to take the brakes off on schedule... were it only if everyone else on the team supported us in doing that. Poor planning is the big culprit, that's an executive's decision. No plane, no ground crew, no gate, unrealistic turn time, unrealistic duty day, illegal crew rest, etc. etc. Do you wonder why AC is always the worst on time? Look at their published city pair flight times and compare it to another airline - they plan their flights based on being late 80% of the time because they are cheap.
All of that is a manager's choice and it snowballs and they constantly seek to download the resulting problems onto us to deal with for free when there are literally 10,000+ people sitting in offices and paid to do it. They're busy doing retirement cakes and swapping muffin recipes though... I honestly don't think some of these people even know we run an airline here.
Everything now, I ask myself, is this my problem? My crews problem? If it isn't, I don't let them make it my problem, why should I? The fact is I have enough problems to deal with here as is, and they don't care about my or my crews problems.
Management's job is to take care of the employees, make it easy for them to look after your clients, that's how you manage. But they aren't taking care of the pilots at this airline and it shows. The poor pay and degraded conditions, new hires unable to afford a basic apartment in their base, the complete lack of work/life balance for most of the list is well documented on this site. They are constantly pressuring to take more.
Love my airline, hate the management. That's the reality here.
302 days without a contract.
Keep the faith, do the right thing.
You can't play the reverse card on me on my this.
Distracting yourself from your own core function of aircraft operation to sort out their problems. Extending duty to overcome their shortcomings. Making it work to protect their operation.
This place is a 703 operator with Airbuses. We are the last line...
"Severe turbulence and windshear in SFO?"
"Go try an approach and go around if you have to. If you don't I'll write you up for discipline."
"CAT 3 Approach ban and 40 knot crosswinds in YYT, and severe turbulence?"
"Just fly out there and try."
"What do you mean a CARs max duty day? I was just supposed to do a one hour leg to YUL?"
"Now you're doing a Caribbean turn to CARs max duty, because maintenance and the other crew dutied out."
"But you've got it planned with a 30 minute ground turn? We can't make that."
"Yeah, well it's legal on paper, you can just extend UOC. Better hurry up and we're going to dock your pay if you say fatigue."
"What do you mean the YYZ red-eye? I'm just supposed to go to YYC."
"You have to be ready for any duty type at any time and if you refuse we'll book you off and dock your pay."
These are absolutely the things we should not be doing ever.
The safest thing is always to SET THE BRAKE OR HANG UP THE PHONE AND WALK.
You can bet that I will do the right thing.
If you turn down a flight, does your minimum monthly credit guarantee go down as well?
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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- Rank 10
- Posts: 2388
- Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
I say no for safety or legal reasons. If it's a business decision, that's not my financial risk to take.Dockjock wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 7:33 am What’s the point of a Captain if not to prevent these totally avoidable and often predictable situations. Think of the passengers, do they want to be in Random, NB just because the SOC manager wanted you to launch? Of course he wants you to.
The SOC manager, by the way, is a yes-man. As is every other department, save (occasionally)MTC. You are the ONLY no-man (plural, the pilots) in the entire chain. Don’t cede that responsibility and duty lightly.
Sometimes it makes sense to launch, yes. But SOC. Have they ever said no, ever. To an MEL, to weather, to turbulence, to anything? Go go go. They have no skin in the game whatsoever, clock out and go home to their comfy bed at the end of their shift. You’re the Captain. Might only need to say no once a year. But when you need to, you must.
I've had that discussion with dispatch. "95% chance we're going to end up at the alternate, what do you want me to do?". Often the end result is take some extra gas and go flying. Sometimes they'll make the decision to delay the flight prior to departure. None of those are safety decisions, a diversion isn't unsafe. Yes it sucks for the passengers, but it's not my responsibility. The flight was operated safety, within regulation and company procedures.
Once a year? I say no a lot more than that. But never for commercial reasons.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
The company abuses something called draft on the go to protect the operation, it's supposed to be a last resort, where they pull you off your scheduled flying and stick you on something else. It's often undesirable stuff that nobody wants to cover for them, and they don't want to wait for the reserve call out they should have initiated hours ago when the problem first started. So there you are at the airport and they pull you off what you were supposed to do and give you their piece of shit.digits_ wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 7:41 am When you say 'dock your pay', do you mean that you get paid for less credits because the trip didn't happen, or are there actual punitive fines/fees when you turn down a flight?
If you turn down a flight, does your minimum monthly credit guarantee go down as well?
Here's the scenario: You're sitting in your seat, just about to pushback on a 21:45 scheduled YVR-YYC flight that you were blocked for all month, that's your scheduled flight that day and then to the hotel.
But CS calls and they now want you to operate a red eye to YYZ leaving at 00:30. You would have been in your hotel by then on your scheduled trip to rest for the following day's flying. That's the trip you planned and rested for. You're not rested for the new duty operating all through the night so you refuse it due to expected fatigue - that's your responsibility under CARs:
602.02 No operator of an aircraft shall require any person to act as a flight crew member and no person shall act as a flight crew member, if either the person or the operator has any reason to believe, having regard to the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, that the person
(a) is suffering or is likely to suffer from fatigue; or
(b) is otherwise unfit to perform properly the person’s duties as a flight crew member.
The company also has a responsibility to provide your schedule in advance for you to plan your rest:
700.21 (1) An air operator shall provide a flight crew member with their schedule sufficiently in advance for them to plan for adequate rest.
You're rested for and willing to operate your planned flight but the company doesn't see it that way, they pull you off all the flying and dock the pay.
CARs 700.26 interprets this:
(3) If a flight crew member were to advise the air operator that they are unfit for the assigned duty but they are fit for a different duty, it would be reasonable for the air operator to reassign the flight crew member to that duty. When a flight crew member reports that they are not fit for duty due to fatigue, the air operator should investigate the circumstances that resulted in the flight crew member not being fit for duty.
But Air Canada isn't reasonable. They are punitive if you say no.
Maybe that YYC leg was the first leg of a 4 day trip paying 20 hours. They dock you all of that 20 hours, and yes your MMG goes down.
Now the company has 2 flights to cancel...
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
Well that's not nice...
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
Altiplano,altiplano wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:47 amThe company abuses something called draft on the go to protect the operation, it's supposed to be a last resort, where they pull you off your scheduled flying and stick you on something else. It's often undesirable stuff that nobody wants to cover for them, and they don't want to wait for the reserve call out they should have initiated hours ago when the problem first started. So there you are at the airport and they pull you off what you were supposed to do and give you their piece of shit.digits_ wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 7:41 am When you say 'dock your pay', do you mean that you get paid for less credits because the trip didn't happen, or are there actual punitive fines/fees when you turn down a flight?
If you turn down a flight, does your minimum monthly credit guarantee go down as well?
Here's the scenario: You're sitting in your seat, just about to pushback on a 21:45 scheduled YVR-YYC flight that you were blocked for all month, that's your scheduled flight that day and then to the hotel.
But CS calls and they now want you to operate a red eye to YYZ leaving at 00:30. You would have been in your hotel by then on your scheduled trip to rest for the following day's flying. That's the trip you planned and rested for. You're not rested for the new duty operating all through the night so you refuse it due to expected fatigue - that's your responsibility under CARs:
602.02 No operator of an aircraft shall require any person to act as a flight crew member and no person shall act as a flight crew member, if either the person or the operator has any reason to believe, having regard to the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, that the person
(a) is suffering or is likely to suffer from fatigue; or
(b) is otherwise unfit to perform properly the person’s duties as a flight crew member.
The company also has a responsibility to provide your schedule in advance for you to plan your rest:
700.21 (1) An air operator shall provide a flight crew member with their schedule sufficiently in advance for them to plan for adequate rest.
You're rested for and willing to operate your planned flight but the company doesn't see it that way, they pull you off all the flying and dock the pay.
CARs 700.26 interprets this:
(3) If a flight crew member were to advise the air operator that they are unfit for the assigned duty but they are fit for a different duty, it would be reasonable for the air operator to reassign the flight crew member to that duty. When a flight crew member reports that they are not fit for duty due to fatigue, the air operator should investigate the circumstances that resulted in the flight crew member not being fit for duty.
But Air Canada isn't reasonable. They are punitive if you say no.
Maybe that YYC leg was the first leg of a 4 day trip paying 20 hours. They dock you all of that 20 hours, and yes your MMG goes down.
Now the company has 2 flights to cancel...
I’m curious, in this instance do you file a grievance?
If it were me and I’ve done this in the past were I booked off fatigued because my pairing changed, I was not docked pay, I filed a FSMS(fatigue) and no problem.
I would grieve the hell out of this and cc Transport Canada
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
I don't think you work for AC then.cdnavater wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 10:22 am I’m curious, in this instance do you file a grievance?
If it were me and I’ve done this in the past were I booked off fatigued because my pairing changed, I was not docked pay, I filed a FSMS(fatigue) and no problem.
I would grieve the hell out of this and cc Transport Canada
Fatigue book offs are no pay.
Even if it isn't a real fatigue book off like I described. Reported ready to operate assigned duty within reason and get drafted into a shit show that you aren't willing to accept. 3 CARs violations by the company.
Transport Canada does less than nothing. AC writes it's own ticket.
Re: “Pilots are leaving” — ALPA
No, Jazz and it initially comes out of sick bank, I believe than put back in to the sick bank after the fact.altiplano wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 10:46 amI don't think you work for AC then.cdnavater wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2024 10:22 am I’m curious, in this instance do you file a grievance?
If it were me and I’ve done this in the past were I booked off fatigued because my pairing changed, I was not docked pay, I filed a FSMS(fatigue) and no problem.
I would grieve the hell out of this and cc Transport Canada
Fatigue book offs are no pay.
Even if it isn't a real fatigue book off like I described. Reported ready to operate assigned duty within reason and get drafted into a shit show that you aren't willing to accept. 3 CARs violations by the company.
Transport Canada does less than nothing. AC writes it's own ticket.