TA

[khedrei]

The EB-2 takes time if your qualified, 2 yrs plus to go through all the hoops. We'll see the number pick up over the next year as more and more who got the Visa get green cards.

Edit: correction. Was thinking of E2 visa. Nevermind.

[pelmet]

Sooooo,

Apparently, captains made big gains and are potentially buying second homes(comment from earlier post).

I thought that the movement was so fast now that almost all of you will be doing fairly well, fairly soon.

Is it the ones refusing to bid a captain position for lifestyle that are most upset?

[BE02 Driver]

Note that you don't have to pay union dues, there's usually an option to pay a charity instead. Perhaps that's something ALPA would be sensitive to?

Then again 1 WB captain salary pays the same dues as 4 FOs on flat pay now?

Iwould be downright surprised if ALPA didn't have Agency Shop language in the AC contract. Every ALPA chapter has it in their contract.

[crystalpizza]

Sooooo,

Apparently, captains made big gains and are potentially buying second homes(comment from earlier post).

I thought that the movement was so fast now that almost all of you will be doing fairly well, fairly soon.

Is it the ones refusing to bid a captain position for lifestyle that are most upset?

A chance that I might be a captain someday “soon”, maybe, hopefully, doesn’t pay my mortgage that’s due this month.

[daedalusx]

Sooooo,

Apparently, captains made big gains and are potentially buying second homes(comment from earlier post).

I thought that the movement was so fast now that almost all of you will be doing fairly well, fairly soon.

Is it the ones refusing to bid a captain position for lifestyle that are most upset?

A chance that I might be a captain someday “soon”, maybe, hopefully, doesn’t pay my mortgage that’s due this month.

Your bank doesn't take B1 passes and mental health therapy coupons ?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Sooooo,

Apparently, captains made big gains and are potentially buying second homes(comment from earlier post).

I thought that the movement was so fast now that almost all of you will be doing fairly well, fairly soon.

Is it the ones refusing to bid a captain position for lifestyle that are most upset?

A chance that I might be a captain someday “soon”, maybe, hopefully, doesn’t pay my mortgage that’s due this month.

Your bank doesn't take B1 passes and mental health therapy coupons ?

Only if there is a commuting policy.

[eyebrow737]

[JBI]

IUEC Elevator Union
120K a year + bennies + pension.

Ya, but that job really has its ups and downs....

As for the AC TA - the executive summary provides more questions than answers for me. While there is a duty of fair representation owed to all members, the advertising and demographics really suggested that more needed to be done for the low to mid level seniority FOs than the high end Captains (without forgetting about those said Captains). Yet, it seems like the TA is very top heavy. I mean it's great that the senior 777 Captains would now make $382,500 per year instead of $292,500, but was that really where the main issues were?

I would highly suggest that the AC pilots read the whole Executive Summary, TA and information provided by your negotiating committee. They obviously felt they had reasons to put it to the pilot group and so to did your LEC members. That being said, as an outside observer, I have a lot of questions. AC pilots should have questions too and the road shows are the best place to ask these questions.

The vote is the place to express either your satisfaction or disapproval.

[accountant]

ALPA main goal wasn’t to get massive gains, it was to avoid paying strike pay. Union brass get bonuses the fatter their bank accounts are.

I’m not surprised they settled around the rumoured 40pct gains - you jump past WS and have some gains and get to do this again in 4 years.

I don’t think anyone realistically expected you to match Us carriers in one contract….

I too am surprised you guys didn’t walk. I thought for sure a strike was going to happen.

Best of luck. (Yes I said it…)

[Me262]

IUEC Elevator Union
120K a year + bennies + pension.

Ya, but that job really has its ups and downs....

As for the AC TA - the executive summary provides more questions than answers for me. While there is a duty of fair representation owed to all members, the advertising and demographics really suggested that more needed to be done for the low to mid level seniority FOs than the high end Captains (without forgetting about those said Captains). Yet, it seems like the TA is very top heavy. I mean it's great that the senior 777 Captains would now make $382,500 per year instead of $292,500, but was that really where the main issues were?

I would highly suggest that the AC pilots read the whole Executive Summary, TA and information provided by your negotiating committee. They obviously felt they had reasons to put it to the pilot group and so to did your LEC members. That being said, as an outside observer, I have a lot of questions. AC pilots should have questions too and the road shows are the best place to ask these questions.

The vote is the place to express either your satisfaction or disapproval.

35% increase on first year FO. 30% increase 777 Capts. What a disgrace for the little guy.

[noreasterYHZ]

ALPA main goal wasn’t to get massive gains, it was to avoid paying strike pay. Union brass get bonuses the fatter their bank accounts are.

I’m not surprised they settled around the rumoured 40pct gains - you jump past WS and have some gains and get to do this again in 4 years.

I don’t think anyone realistically expected you to match Us carriers in one contract….

I too am surprised you guys didn’t walk. I thought for sure a strike was going to happen.

Best of luck. (Yes I said it…)

Can't believe I'm agreeing with you because you're correct

[noreasterYHZ]

IUEC Elevator Union
120K a year + bennies + pension.

Ya, but that job really has its ups and downs....

As for the AC TA - the executive summary provides more questions than answers for me. While there is a duty of fair representation owed to all members, the advertising and demographics really suggested that more needed to be done for the low to mid level seniority FOs than the high end Captains (without forgetting about those said Captains). Yet, it seems like the TA is very top heavy. I mean it's great that the senior 777 Captains would now make $382,500 per year instead of $292,500, but was that really where the main issues were?

I would highly suggest that the AC pilots read the whole Executive Summary, TA and information provided by your negotiating committee. They obviously felt they had reasons to put it to the pilot group and so to did your LEC members. That being said, as an outside observer, I have a lot of questions. AC pilots should have questions too and the road shows are the best place to ask these questions.

The vote is the place to express either your satisfaction or disapproval.

The high end raise was to be able to weaponize the top end pay. Media would have had a frenzy

"Greedy pilots ignoring $400k jobs. How could they?"

[Ash Ketchum]

I am beyond disapointed. Sure, I'm happy the wide body captain will be able to buy their third beach house and support their ex wives however us flat pay pilots are stuck not being able to pay our mortgages and feed our kids. What a disgrace to the industry. Also a dumb business move because good luck attracting skilled and experienced new hires on 78K in YYZ or YVR.

[JHR]

Everyone on flat pay knew exactly what they were signing up for...just saying

[khedrei]

Everyone on flat pay knew exactly what they were signing up for...just saying

They sure did. A union that would sell them out in favour of the senior captains. I called that too. I guess this makes the "I hope I'm wrong people" more hated instead of less because we weren't.

[rudder]

Everyone on flat pay knew exactly what they were signing up for...just saying

Pilots signed up for a contract that expired one year ago. A contract that was acknowledged by 98% of the pilots to be deficient.

An expectation of change was highly realistic. Hopefully disappointment will not also become realistic.

[Red1]

Everyone complaining about flat pay has obviously never negotiated or been involved with a contract negots before. Where do you put the money, at the top because that is who votes and that is where everyone ends up. What's two years of flat pay compared to 10 at the top. Secondly, did you really think you were going to get Delta in one shot, 40+% is a pretty big gain and leads the industry in Canada. Remember the US carriers have been pushing the bar up over the last couple of contract cycles. This is the first one in Canada. The base was set by WJA, and now has been raised by AC. Does it fix everything, nope. You have a stale 10 year contract, how do you fix everything in one go? Wasn't going to happen no matter how long you go on strike for. Go to the road shows, learn the why behind it, then vote.

[khedrei]

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6508538

As far as CBC trash goes, this one isn't too bad. But it does show just how much the union failed the new pilots especially.

The fact that he says new pilots only make 75k shows that the union has done a piss poor job of getting the sad truth out to the media and the public. I have not seen a single media article saying exactly how much the 1st year base salary is for a pilot or how it compares to other salaries in CANADA nevermind in the US. The fact that pilots are paid 57k in Canada, and that this potential new pay bump doesn't even get them close to FLAIR starting wages is sad on its own, nevermind comparing to US pilots starting at 100k+ USD.

The union needed to make it simple. Scream from the rooftops the number 57k. Point out 2-3 other insane things that are in the contract such as training on days off, and half pay for deadheading and one more and make those the key points. Then point out that AC will spin it saying captains make xyz, and specify that only x% make that, and that 75% of the pilots make less than x% and they have been working low paying jobs for the last 5 years and still have 100k of training to pay off. All of this could have fit into a paragraph.

Somehow, the media thinks that new AC pilots make 75k, when the truth is the new raise would put them only slightly above that. Because of this, everyone is going to think that the new guys are going to get 40% on top of 75k which we all know isnt true.

The fact that senior guys will get more than a starting pilots salary in the form of a raise should be very concerning to everyone.

Serious question. If you combine the raise of the yr 1 FO's, 21k, and the raise of the yr12 87 CA's, 98k, you get approximatly 120k. Do you think the pilot group would have been happy if they had split it, 60k per year average across the board? The % obviously would have been higher for the YR1's than the yr 12's? Provided most of the other QoL items were taken care of, do you think people would have been happy?

[Ash Ketchum]

Exactly, wasn't expecting Delta pay but beating Flair would be nice as a new hire.

[sullecpt]

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6508538

As far as CBC trash goes, this one isn't too bad. But it does show just how much the union failed the new pilots especially.

The fact that he says new pilots only make 75k shows that the union has done a piss poor job of getting the sad truth out to the media and the public. I have not seen a single media article saying exactly how much the 1st year base salary is for a pilot or how it compares to other salaries in CANADA nevermind in the US. The fact that pilots are paid 57k in Canada, and that this potential new pay bump doesn't even get them close to FLAIR starting wages is sad on its own, nevermind comparing to US pilots starting at 100k+ USD.

The union needed to make it simple. Scream from the rooftops the number 57k. Point out 2-3 other insane things that are in the contract such as training on days off, and half pay for deadheading and one more and make those the key points. Then point out that AC will spin it saying captains make xyz, and specify that only x% make that, and that 75% of the pilots make less than x% and they have been working low paying jobs for the last 5 years and still have 100k of training to pay off. All of this could have fit into a paragraph.

Somehow, the media thinks that new AC pilots make 75k, when the truth is the new raise would put them only slightly above that. Because of this, everyone is going to think that the new guys are going to get 40% on top of 75k which we all know isnt true.

The fact that senior guys will get more than a starting pilots salary in the form of a raise should be very concerning to everyone.

Serious question. If you combine the raise of the yr 1 FO's, 21k, and the raise of the yr12 87 CA's, 98k, you get approximatly 120k. Do you think the pilot group would have been happy if they had split it, 60k per year average across the board? The % obviously would have been higher for the YR1's than the yr 12's? Provided most of the other QoL items were taken care of, do you think people would have been happy?

This guy gets it. Its not a hard concept.

[TheStig]

I'm going to wade into the swamp. I can't believe how quickly everyone has gotten the pitch forks and torches out, every pilot is 100% entitled to their vote; but the amount of slander, speculation and misinformation that's been spread in 12 hours is a disservice to yourself. History may not repeat itself but it rhymes and I feel like anyone that was here for the 2011 TA has seen this all before. There isn't nearly enough information available in a 9 page brief to have any idea what is contained in this TA, attend a roadshow, make an informed decision.

So you think ALPA decided to hide all the good stuff in a 9 page brief and just share the lame excuse for a TA

Do you really think a contract with 35 Articles and 1200+ proposed changes can be summarised in 9 pages?

[cjp]

Everyone complaining about flat pay has obviously never negotiated or been involved with a contract negots before. Where do you put the money, at the top because that is who votes and that is where everyone ends up. What's two years of flat pay compared to 10 at the top. Secondly, did you really think you were going to get Delta in one shot, 40+% is a pretty big gain and leads the industry in Canada. Remember the US carriers have been pushing the bar up over the last couple of contract cycles. This is the first one in Canada. The base was set by WJA, and now has been raised by AC. Does it fix everything, nope. You have a stale 10 year contract, how do you fix everything in one go? Wasn't going to happen no matter how long you go on strike for. Go to the road shows, learn the why behind it, then vote.

It's not just 2 years, look how flat the FO salaries are even after the 2 years. You can't just live thinking about the last 10 years until retirement. Literally 99.5% of the energy went into Captain's salaries - and good chance upgrades are going to be pushed out another 2 to 3 years - edging closer to the better part of decade with this large disparity - if this TA gets passed.

This is the mentality that has kept Air Canada pilots so far behind your international peers and the Canadian discount alive.

At this point 2003+inflation would've been gold.

[Bede]

At the risk of being called a "management shill" or whatever else AvCanada calls those with unorthodox opinions, here's my analysis.

What do I think of the AC TA? Meh, neither yay or nay. Underwhelming, but not a disaster warranting recalling your MEC or NC.

Biggest Issues
1) The biggest problem isn't this TA- it's the absolute abysmal starting point that is the current CA. Climbing from the depths of that CA to where you want to be would always be incredibly difficult for any group.
2) Lack of focus - a NC has to make a conscious decision to look at the weakest point(s) of a CA and fix it. Instead, this TA insufficiently "fixes" a bunch of items. Fedex does something really cool (IMO). They open up only a few portions of the CA every two years. This forces the parties to focus on the items that need fixing without losing focus.
3) Comparison to WJ CA2 - monetarily better. Still way worse lifestyle (see below).

Good Things
1) Total value - getting a 41% uplift in contract value equating to $1.9B over the contract is a massive gain- likely a bigger gain than what DAL saw in their last round. Again, starting points. $1.9B additional over 4 years is about $500M/year. That's a quarter of Air Canada's record profits being redirected from the shareholders to the pilots. That's a massive win.
2) Senior FO pay. As a fraction of Captain pay, it's at a good spot. Something the WJ CA is missing.
3) WB Capt pay. It's getting there. Shooting for US salaries or 2003+ inflation is a realistic goal. Shooting for US salaries corrected for exchange rate and/or tax rates is not. Sorry, but you're going to lose credibility arguing that point. Welcome to Canada.

Bad Things
1) Flat pay. Improvement but still abysmal. I've always felt that you can judge the collective by how they treat their poorest members. On the flip side, you will spend more years at the high end than the low end, and you knew the paltry starting wages when you signed up, so maybe some deferred gratification thinking should be in order. One marshmallow now or 2 marshmellows in ten minutes. Still...
2) Lifestyle. Slight improvement to vacation credit, but still inadequate. A day vacation still doesn't count for a day less work. No max days worked on WB (seriously??). Training outside the block, etc. AC pilots will still be overworked. This point confirms my prediction- AC trying to buy off the senior pilots with a pay increase without addressing the serious lifestyle issues in the CA that affect ALL pilots.

I haven't studied the implication of the scope provisions, but Scope is the most important section of your CA. TAKE IT SERIOUSLY!

Take your vote seriously. Decide for yourself if this CA: a) advances the piloting profession, b) works for the group, and c) works for your family. If it does, vote yes. If it doesn't vote no. Please don't rely on the chat groups to make your decision for you.

[TheStig]

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6508538



The fact that senior guys will get more than a starting pilots salary in the form of a raise should be very concerning to everyone.

Serious question. If you combine the raise of the yr 1 FO's, 21k, and the raise of the yr12 87 CA's, 98k, you get approximatly 120k. Do you think the pilot group would have been happy if they had split it, 60k per year average across the board? The % obviously would have been higher for the YR1's than the yr 12's? Provided most of the other QoL items were taken care of, do you think people would have been happy?

This guy gets it. Its not a hard concept.

Apparently it is, what do you think would be more beneficial to a pilot throughout their career, adding $20/hour to the year 1 pay scale or $20/hour to all the year 12 pay scales?

I was expecting years 1-4 to see greater gains because the airline should see the benefit in attracting higher quality applicants. However, from a pilots perspective, these aren't end loaded pay tables...they're Captain loaded. That may seem like the same thing but it isn't. The airline is taking deliveries of 40+ aircraft by the end of the contract term. With 22 aircraft of net growth in 2025 there isn't a single pilot voting on this TA that wont be able to hold Year 2 A220 Captain ($287.63/hour + profit sharing) within the next year.

I've read through the comments on slack and WhatsApp, it's the same group leading the charge and spinning theories that always seem to appear and yet never volunteer and could never get elected despite their apparent popularity. I've had brief conversations with members of the LEC, NC and MEC and they're all disappointed that they weren't able to achieve more but feel that this is the best they could do. The theory that they would like the membership to 'read between the lines' and vote this deal down so we can send them back to the table to achieve more is 100% false, they all have their resignations ready as they've given everything they can.

[truedude]

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6508538



The fact that senior guys will get more than a starting pilots salary in the form of a raise should be very concerning to everyone.

Serious question. If you combine the raise of the yr 1 FO's, 21k, and the raise of the yr12 87 CA's, 98k, you get approximatly 120k. Do you think the pilot group would have been happy if they had split it, 60k per year average across the board? The % obviously would have been higher for the YR1's than the yr 12's? Provided most of the other QoL items were taken care of, do you think people would have been happy?

This guy gets it. Its not a hard concept.

Apparently it is, what do you think would be more beneficial to a pilot throughout their career, adding $20/hour to the year 1 pay scale or $20/hour to all the year 12 pay scales?

I was expecting years 1-4 to see greater gains because the airline should see the benefit in attracting higher quality applicants. However, from a pilots perspective, these aren't end loaded pay tables...they're Captain loaded. That may seem like the same thing but it isn't. The airline is taking deliveries of 40+ aircraft by the end of the contract term. With 22 aircraft of net growth in 2025 there isn't a single pilot voting on this TA that wont be able to hold Year 2 A220 Captain ($287.63/hour + profit sharing) within the next year.

I've read through the comments on slack and WhatsApp, it's the same group leading the charge and spinning theories that always seem to appear and yet never volunteer and could never get elected despite their apparent popularity. I've had brief conversations with members of the LEC, NC and MEC and they're all disappointed that they weren't able to achieve more but feel that this is the best they could do. The theory that they would like the membership to 'read between the lines' and vote this deal down so we can send them back to the table to achieve more is 100% false, they all have their resignations ready as they've given everything they can.

There it is... we don't care what you think, if you don't vote for it we quit. Even though we could have given strike notice and shut the whole thing down to keep pushing for more on the bottom end.

And future earnings don't pay today's bills.