The 40 Degree Flap Question

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:50 pm

jetsam · Post by **jetsam** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:01 am

Guys, what is max flaps angle on Beaver? Greater than 40 degrees?

bronson · Post by **bronson** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:46 am

Full flap on the Beaver is okay, but watch out if it's gusty..... check it out, you don't get any up aileron after take-off flap or there abouts. I did have a Beaver roll over on it's side at about 100' and refuse to right itself ( with full flap), finally came around at about 50'. As I recall full flap was to be avoided with an external load too, or so the older boys told me.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:21 pm

That's why God invented the rudder...

bronson · Post by **bronson** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:22 am

well he sould have invented a bigger one then...

West Coast Swell · Post by **West Coast Swell** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:54 am

I've seen Cat's "sh!t" and it is real. In fact, it smells delicious.

eeeeeewwwww thats yucky Widow!!!!

As to the other comment re: flap use... Flight Schools teach the basics. Reality comes from being on the job. Do whats gotta be done to get the job done safetly.

Chaxterium · Post by **Chaxterium** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:57 pm

I fly a twin otter down in the Caribbean and we take er into Saba which is 1000ft strip, 150ft cliffs on 3 sides, and a mountain on the 4th so we obviously need the full flap. A normal landing for us though is to only use 20 degrees (not into Saba of course) and to be honest I'm not sure as to the reason for that but notwithstanding I found that transitioning from 20 flap landings, to full flap landings definately took a lot of getting used to. I can't speak for other aircraft but I certainly know that everything in a twin otter is different with full flap, aircraft handling, response, approach, and especially the flare are all different. I'll tell you though it is some serious fun. The plane never ceases to amaze me.

FYI, search "saba landing" in youtube to see what I mean.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:59 pm

Chaxterium wrote:I fly a twin otter down in the Caribbean and we take er into Saba which is 1000ft strip, 150ft cliffs on 3 sides, and a mountain on the 4th so we obviously need the full flap. A normal landing for us though is to only use 20 degrees (not into Saba of course) and to be honest I'm not sure as to the reason for that but notwithstanding I found that transitioning from 20 flap landings, to full flap landings definately took a lot of getting used to. I can't speak for other aircraft but I certainly know that everything in a twin otter is different with full flap, aircraft handling, response, approach, and especially the flare are all different. I'll tell you though it is some serious fun. The plane never ceases to amaze me.

FYI, search "saba landing" in youtube to see what I mean.

Not trying to trash you but, how can you have a problem with a -6 at full flaps? It is as easy to fly as a 172.

Just a question, did your instructor let you use full flaps when you were learning to fly?

I'm just curious because as my name shows, I've got a bit of -6 time and there is not very often that I would not use full flaps with it. BTW, 1000 feet is not a short strip for a -6..

BTW, for you who are doubting Cat, I've seen his proof as well. I haven't seen his shit, and I really don't want to. I don't care how it smells, I just won't go there..

I would ride anywhere, anytime with Cat at the helm. He has the knowledge, skill and experience that few others have.

Cheers all..

Chaxterium · Post by **Chaxterium** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:06 pm

I never said I had a problem with full flaps, just that it took an adjustment. I never did a full flap landing in the twotter in any of my training and to be honest a lot of the new captains find landing with full flap to be the most challenging part of the upgrade since we don't do many full flappers from the right seat. I'm not saying it's hard, just definately takes an adjustment from 20 flap. Once you get the hang of it though it is like a 172 I'll give you that.

And you're right, 1000ft is not a short strip for a Twin Otter but come fly into Saba and you'll realise why it's a challenge. Fun as hell though.

And as for your question yes I almost always used full flaps when I was learning to fly. Given the choice I will always choose full flap provided it makes the most sense in the overall picture.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:00 am

Just curious, were you not one of the fellows last winter who was asking about buying a PPC on the -6 to get the job at winair?

Chaxterium · Post by **Chaxterium** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:25 pm

No sir, not me

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:47 am

Sorry then, your name seemed familiar and your location fit..

I'm just a little confused as to why you are not trained to use full flaps on the airplane. Or for that matter why F/Os don't get to use it. It's not rocket science. I figure if a couple of hacks like me and CAT can figure it out, well, how hard can it really be??

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:28 am

It is quite simple.

If an airplane has flaps and a pilot does not feel comfortable using full flaps on said airplane that piot is not qualified on the airplane.

Chaxterium · Post by **Chaxterium** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:25 am

There is actually nothing that says FO's aren't allowed to use full flaps (in this company anyway) but in the beginning when training on the aircraft the training captains here tend not to demonstrate full flaps until the FO is comfortable with the 20 flap landings. I guess the reason for that is that 20 Flap is considered a "Normal" landing here and we typically only use full flaps in the shorter fields and again it's usually the captains that land at those fields. Once the FO has some time on the aircraft however the captains in fact encourage FOs to practice full flaps. I agree that if you are not comfortable with full flaps then you're really not qualified on the aircraft.

Rudder Bug · Post by **Rudder Bug** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:29 pm

In about 4,000 hours on Beavers, I tried Full flaps about 3 times and didn't like it nor understood why there was so much flaps on them.

Other than the Beavers, I can't think of any other type that would not be ideally landed with less than full flaps.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:27 am

For all you naysayers, I have once again defied death!!

I delivered Cat's 150 texas thing to it's new home today and without any pissing around used the death defying full flap landing in it. And, I lived to tell about it!! I hadn't flown one of those little things in about 25 years and had never flown one with the texas conversion before. I guess being uncurrent on type I should thank my lucky stars.

I'm sorry, but for those of you who don't think an airplane should have as much flap as it is certified for, I just think you don't know how to fly.

There, I've said it.. If any of you would like to become comfortable using full flaps, I would suggest you contact Cat Driver and enroll in his advanced program.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:43 am

twotter wrote:For all you naysayers, I have once again defied death!!

I delivered Cat's 150 texas thing to it's new home today and without any pissing around used the death defying full flap landing in it. And, I lived to tell about it!! I hadn't flown one of those little things in about 25 years and had never flown one with the texas conversion before. I guess being uncurrent on type I should thank my lucky stars.

I'm sorry, but for those of you who don't think an airplane should have as much flap as it is certified for, I just think you don't know how to fly.

There, I've said it.. If any of you would like to become comfortable using full flaps, I would suggest you contact Cat Driver and enroll in his advanced program.

I hope you took out some extra life insurance

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:44 am

And I can truthfully state that Twotter is now the worlds higest payed Cessna 150 ferry pilot.

When one wants to hire the best one pays the highest.

x-wind · Post by **x-wind** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:39 pm

The 182 can do some weird things when you slip it w/ 40 flaps - the tail does stall. Scared myself once... Never again though.

A 150 is like an elevator with 40 flaps.

Did the 206 get reduce to 30 to?

Rudder Bug · Post by **Rudder Bug** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:46 pm

I'm sorry, but for those of you who don't think an airplane should have as much flap as it is certified for, I just think you don't know how to fly.

Yes, sure for most of the cases, but I doubt Russ had 4,000 hours on type when he wrote the POH. They were selling a fantastic airplane though, but most of us like a Beaver with no more than T/O flaps under "normal" operation.

Who knows, maybe a different POH could be written after 60 years and millions hours flown circa 1947...

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:54 pm

x-wind wrote:Did the 206 get reduce to 30 to?

Yes.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:22 am

I can't believe that there would be so much discussion about using flaps, regardless of how much or how little.

If some of you guys have problems flying airplanes that were certified for xx degrees of flaps and it is beyond your ability to fly the airplane as certified why don't you find a job you are qualified for?

twotterflogger · Post by **twotterflogger** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:21 am

Redneck_pilot86 wrote:
x-wind wrote:Did the 206 get reduce to 30 to?
Yes.

When?

All the ones I've flown had a full 40... Why the hell would they limit it to 30 in the first place???
I've never had any problems with them, and used to operate one usually at gross weight and out of a strip at 7800ASL without any control problems...

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:27 am

twotterflogger wrote:
Redneck_pilot86 wrote:
x-wind wrote:Did the 206 get reduce to 30 to?
Yes.
When?

All the ones I've flown had a full 40... Why the hell would they limit it to 30 in the first place???
I've never had any problems with them, and used to operate one usually at gross weight and out of a strip at 7800ASL without any control problems...

Maybe its just on floats then. Both the floating 206's I've flown were placarded against 40 flaps. I'll see if I can dig up the reason.

twotterflogger · Post by **twotterflogger** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:16 am

Perhaps, but I still dont know why they'd do that... I could see them placarding it, limiting slips with more than 20 but even then... One of the more docile airplanes ever made imo....