Air France 447 Reported Missing

[canwhitewolf]

was this aircraft not sending out all kinds of messages through ACARS about electrical problems maybe even electrical failure and even pressurization failure?? maybe even more than that

would that not constitute in anyones mind that there could be a great problem?

for a person at a desk seeing the acars on this would that not create an instant wondering

all that kind of information started coming at one full force and not reacting would indeed be inappropiate, one should try to ascertain immediatly what was going on if possible

the plane is flying in an area of known bad weather and thunderstorm continious activity at night

obviously now it seems a more hurried response would not have solved anything greater but some of the harsh words to others in here who are less knowledgeable about transit in that part of the world and who are only trying to understand it all should be tamed down a bit

be kind..instruct.. dont lecture

[Boeing boy]

They just said on CNN that the Airbus started breaking up while in flight at 38,000 or 39,000 feet. THey also said (I cant remember whether it was May of this year or last year) that in Argentina (Also in South America) a man threatened to bomb an Air France 777-300 enroute from Buenos Aires to Paris. This is now getting a little strange and I wonder if its possible to connect the two..?

[MrWings]

would that not constitute in anyones mind that there could be a great problem?

for a person at a desk seeing the acars on this would that not create an instant wondering

By all indications, it did raise an alarm. Why do some assume that it didn't?

The system acted as fast as it could considering aircraft positioning in a remote area and the potential for false error reporting and communication problems.

And even if it did, it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

[Widow]

If there had been one single survivor, it might have made a difference.

[Liquid Charlie]

If there had been one single survivor, it might have made a difference.

I hear what you are saying but in reality long haul airplanes spend a great percentage of their flights in areas where there would be very little chance of reaching survivors unless they were all tucked into a life boat. There have been very few successful ditchings of transport category jets -- they always break up --- also what about all the polar flights -- how do you react to an airplane at 85N

As Cat stated they acted with amazing speed and accuracy -- mmmm -- maybe joe public is not getting all the info -- we are listening to news media here and making judgements and offering speculations -- there is still a good possibility of a bomb -- it could have crippled the airplane but not destroyed it and therefore the impact would be as advertised -- if they don't find the recorders it could remain mostly a mystery for ever --

[Fox 3]

shit, we send people to the moon on a regular basis

Better go do some reading on that one. People haven't been to the moon since 1972. 7 manned missions, 6 were successful.

You are right, my bad...should have said "into space"...I was just making a point, thank you for pointing that out for me.

~FOX~

[Topspin]

As Cat stated they acted with amazing speed and accuracy -- mmmm -- maybe joe public is not getting all the info -- we are listening to news media here and making judgements and offering speculations -- there is still a good possibility of a bomb -- it could have crippled the airplane but not destroyed it and therefore the impact would be as advertised -- if they don't find the recorders it could remain mostly a mystery for ever --

If there was a bomb, what are the odds of us ever proving it's existence?

[goldeneagle]

most read and influential Aviation board in all of Canada

Very well spoken long post ttjj, except I must digress and disagree with the above detail. Avcan _used to be_ a well read, and influential forum for aviation in canada. Over the last couple of years it's turned into the haunt of a group of whiners and complainers, most of the folks that have some 'wheat' to add to all the 'chaff' no longer make regular stops here, except in an occaision like this, looking to find any more 'insider info' on an event like the AF447 incident.

As far as some of the self proclaimed experts here, well, I'm sure Air France has a lot to learn from those here that have never been involved in long haul airline operations, after all, avcan is full of self proclaimed experts on the subject, and AF has only been doing it since the invention of the long haul airliner. Heck, the locals are so 'expert' they've been promoted to the rank of moderator on an industry specific forum for an industry in which they have no first hand experience. But I digress, I'm sure she stayed in a holiday in express last nite, so, is quite capable of solving all the worlds problems instantly, we wont digress and allow silly little facts like 'what the technology is actually capable of out in the real world' get in the way of a good round of industry bashing to promote a personal agenda.

You'll have to mind my cynicism, but, I'm only really here today to see if there's any new 'hard facts' and any good 'industry perspective information' (that would be your long detailed and informative post). In general, most of the stuff here on avcan has lost credibility to the point I rarely show up, and even more rarely participate here. When the opinions of self proclaimed experts seem to be more highly valued than those that have been operating airframes for 30+ years, one realizes, this isn't really a hard core aviation forum anymore.

But back to the real subject at hand, AF447. One thing to consider, this is a very high profile incident, and France is a very technically capable country when it comes to the submersible side of things. Cousteau laid the groundwork, and it's not been abandoned. The high profile nature of this search will almost certainly deploy a type of asset not normally available for SAR operations. A nuclear powered attack sub, with it's modern sonar capability, will make childs play out of finding the cvr and fdr pingers (assuming they are still emitting pings). I have no doubt that such assets are already headed that direction at/near flank speeds, and quite likely not only french assets. A submerged attack sub is not hindered by enroute speeds of surface vessels, they can chew up a lot of water in a hurry, without the need to stop for fuel and/or supplies. It's a fantastic 'real world' exercise for _any_ navy with such assets, and an opportunity to be the 'good guys' by deploying all that expensive technology for something useful. We likely wont hear about _how_ or _who_ found the recorders, that'll be kept on the qt, but find them they will.

[MrWings]

If there was a bomb, what are the odds of us ever proving it's existence?

If they find the correct pieces of the plane, I believe they have a pretty good chance.

It is amazing with what they did with Swissair Flight 111.

[Fox 3]

Heck, the locals are so 'expert' they've been promoted to the rank of moderator on an industry specific forum for an industry in which they have no first hand experience. But I digress, I'm sure she stayed in a holiday in express last nite, so, is quite capable of solving all the worlds problems instantly, we wont digress and allow silly little facts like 'what the technology is actually capable of out in the real world' get in the way of a good round of industry bashing to promote a personal agenda.

Wow...glad you added some "wheat to the chaff" so to speak.

Side Note: do you need to be an "expert" and be "operating airframes for 30+ years" to be competent enough to mod a public forum?

don't answer, it was rhetorical.

~FOX~

p.s. yes I'm ashamed I added to the shit in this thread. sorry.

[Fox 3]

If you read into anything I wrote that I have no interest in improving aviation safety, I think you need to re-read my posts.

No, I don't think that about you. I was just annoyed at the bantering and people just get jumped on for the smallest things sometimes...it just gets to me. What I said was not directed at anyone in particular, I'm sorry if it came off that way.

~FOX~

[AuxBatOn]

They just said on CNN that the Airbus started breaking up while in flight at 38,000 or 39,000 feet. THey also said (I cant remember whether it was May of this year or last year) that in Argentina (Also in South America) a man threatened to bomb an Air France 777-300 enroute from Buenos Aires to Paris. This is now getting a little strange and I wonder if its possible to connect the two..?

Of course, everything CNN says MUST be true.

Was this from the same guy that talked about the twin engine Cessna 172 landing on the highway?

[Old fella]

I would like to hope the end was merciful and quick for the passengers/crew of AF 447. Sincere condolences to all surviving families.

[Widow]

Anyone who wishes to keep bashing me, or AvCanada for that matter, please feel free to start a new thread or let admin know how you feel.

Argentinian coverage of the supposed bomb threat on May 27, 2009 can be found here: http://momento24.com/en/2009/05/27/bomb ... ce-flight/

Apparently, the Brazilian papers reported a possible in-flight break up: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/644696

You can't blame CNN for everything

I'd be interested to hear comments on this blog about composite materials, http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2009/06 ... -materials.

[fogghorn]

The area of ocean in which this flight went down is 24,000 feet deep. Somehow I doubt that france with all their Jaques cousteau gadgets will get to the bottom of this. Best bet is likely to study the data links and determine if multiple lightning strikes and/or break up in tcu was the most likely cause. There has been no gloating by terrorist groups to assign blame at this point.

[iflyforpie]

As far as some of the self proclaimed experts here....

Drivel like this from supposed professionals is embarrassing for the 'real' experts out there.


How much experience do you have operating nuclear subs? Sonar systems? How much trans-Atlantic flight time do you have, sir? How much heavy jet time? Have you ever operated a scheduled trans-Atlantic airline?



It is amazing how much tragedy and search for justice can motivate people to educate themselves. Widow probably know more about certain aspects of aviation than many of us 'professionals'. In here, she is searching for answers and using her own experience as a guide.

I don't think Widow comes across as a 'self-proclaimed expert' in her posts nearly as much as you do.

[boeingboy]

Because it isn’t just about rescue. It’s also about recovery – and finding out why the accident happened in the first place. Without recovery, we may never know why and therefore be unable to prevent future accidents with similar contributing causes. Can you not see how that relates back to AQW for me?

Again - Why? The location of large commercial aircraft is pretty well known. Maybe you didn't read all of my last post. Big difference between the 2 events.

They found the site rapidly, they will find the wreakage and possibly recover the boxes (If they are not too deep). The boxes have pingers (or ELT's)on them. They will eventually find out what happened. Wow - a lot of good a floating ELT will do when it floats 100 miles away from the wreak........or maybe, like this one is shaping up to be, the debris field itself seems to be massive.

I don't mean to sound harsh but I don't think it's worth the huge expense of having a floating ELT (certification, maintenance, initial cost) when there is nothing good that will come of it except the families knowing everyone is gone 12 hours earlier. It will not enhance safety at all.

[Cat Driver]

If there was a bomb, what are the odds of us ever proving it's existence?

If they recover enough pieces of the airframe and there was an explosive used to bring the airplane down there will be chemical evidence of the type of explosive used.

As my good friend Goldeneagle said the French are going to put every asset at their disposal into finding as much of this airplane as they can, and I also think the black boxes will be recovered.

Goldeneagle also was correct that this site used to be a treasure trove of information from many experienced people in aviation however it has become a zoo and it is getting difficult to get much real professional opinion here lately, maybe discussing this accident will help get things back on track.

As to the French and their expertise on flying the South Atlantic Route they are the most experienced in the world.

In 1998 it was my privelage to have flown the Aeropostale mail route from Toulouse to Santiago for the country of France and having flown the route I am humbled and amazed at the courage those French pilots had to have flown that route back in the thirties with the aircraft they had then.

Experiencing the ITCZ at low level over the South Atlantic is something that one can only imagine looking down from the flight levels. Trust me it is an experience one never forgets......I often wonder how in hell I ever survived some of the stuff I did at least when I die and go to hell I it will be worth it.

P.S. :

Lets give widow some slack here.

She is our friend not our enemy.

[boeingboy]

Another thing on ACARS. Depending on the customer - the automated messages may be very general in nature.

Ex: electrical failure - could be anything from a failure of 1 bus (There are many on large jets....6 or more) to complete failure.

It may not have risen alarms depending on the generality of the message trigger. Usually if something more drastic happens the crew will send the message themselves.

Also - remember that companies like Air France, Air Canada, American - all have very large fleets 300+ aircraft, and with 80% of them in the air - I'm sure there are a lot of messages that come in all the time.

[boeingboy]

Now THIS is interesting:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 21,00.html

[Widow]

boeingboy, I did read all of your last post and I don't agree that there is no comparison to be made. I actually know something about recovery without a ping, I know something about manned submersibles and ROVs. I also know something about the difficulties of discovering cause and contributing factors without having wreckage.

I very good article about how difficult recovery will be found here, http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 6933.story, says:

Flight recorders aboard airliners do not float, and the major safety agencies do not require them to do so, but many experts have called for that to change. Some military transports have a secondary, detachable recorder on top of the fuselage that is designed to float.

So you see, I'm not alone in these thoughts. I really doubt the military have them only in order to provide quicker closure to families.

If you refer back to the Star article I posted above, you'll find this:

A complete chronology published today by Brazil's O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper, citing an unidentified Air France source said the pilot sent a manual signal at 11 p.m. local time saying he was flying through an area of "CBs" – black, electrically charged cumulo-nimbus clouds that come with violent winds and lightning.

Satellite data has shown that towering thunderheads were sending 100 mph (160 kph) winds straight into the jet's flight path at that time.

Ten minutes later, the plane sent a burst of automatic messages, indicating the autopilot had disengaged, the "fly-by-wire'' computer system had been switched to alternative power, and controls needed to keep the plane stable had been damaged. An alarm also sounded, indicating the deterioration of flight systems, according to the report.

Three minutes after that, more automatic messages indicated the failure of two other fundamental systems pilots use to monitor air speed, altitude and direction. Then, a cascade of other electrical failures in systems that control the main flight computer and wing spoilers.

The report repeats a detail previously released by Brazil's Air Force: that the last message came at 11:14 pm, indicating loss of air pressure and electrical failure. The newspaper said this could mean sudden de-pressurization, or that the plane was already plunging into the ocean.

That all sounds pretty ominous to me. Of course, no idea how accurate it is ...

[Ogee]

Heck, the locals are so 'expert' they've been promoted to the rank of moderator on an industry specific forum for an industry in which they have no first hand experience. But I digress, I'm sure she stayed in a holiday in express last nite, so, is quite capable of solving all the worlds problems instantly, we wont digress and allow silly little facts like 'what the technology is actually capable of out in the real world' get in the way of a good round of industry bashing to promote a personal agenda.

Wow...glad you added some "wheat to the chaff" so to speak.

Side Note: do you need to be an "expert" and be "operating airframes for 30+ years" to be competent enough to mod a public forum?

don't answer, it was rhetorical.

~FOX~

p.s. yes I'm ashamed I added to the shit in this thread. sorry.

GoldenEagle is the chaff. That was one of the most ignorant responses in this thread. I'd say GoldenEagle is a man whose been punched between the horns in more than one bar for running his yapper like this and stops by here to take it out on a woman who is well respected here and is trying in her own way to make some small difference for our industry.

Perhaps he can give us a summary of what he's ever contributed. Or why he should be a mod.

[Fox 3]

I really like the idea of floating CVR's and FDR's, and I don't think it would take to much to make them buoyant, the real trick would be to mount them in such a way so as to detach from the airframe effectively. Also another thought, what about making those ACARS messages include one that sends an alert when a certain series of failures indicate eminent (sp?) danger? So if it sees (for example) 4 buses fail, the auto pilot being disengaged, and a rapid depressurization it would send a signal different from the rest that would catch the attention of whoever (or whatever) is monitoring them. Food for thought.

I am not a pilot so I've got no idea, but from what people like Cat and others have described, I would be scared to be anywhere near a weather band like that...60,000 foot tops? geeezus. Mother nature...what a bitch.

Last I heard on the news (City TV this morning) it sounded like they would be another day before they got to the location. It's so tough waiting for answers, I feel so bad for the families.

I wondered what a company would do in a situation like this with their other flights? I expect that route is shut down for now, it would be empty even if it did go, but I wonder if other companies are still flying that route.

~FOX~

[boeingboy]

So what exactly is your point Widow?

You go from talking about floating ELT's (I assume for rescue), to using them for recovery of wreakage, to floating flight recorders.

I never said you had no experiance with recovery of wreakage - I don't know where that came from. What I would concider a good idea is the floating flight recorders - that may have some merit. However - I can't recall a time when the flight recorders were never found.

Even if they had them 2 min after the crash - it still takes months to anaylize the data and figure out what happened. They are a diogtostic tool. They don't directly affect saftey - with regaurds to the immediate situation.

[Widow]

Stop assuming that I was talking about ELT's only in terms of rescue, and you may begin to get my point. They are a valuable tool for finding the wreck whether there are or are not survivors. You referred to your previous post, which said there were "absolutely no parallels" - I disagree.

If I remember correctly, the flight recorders were not found for all the crashed a/c on 9/11. Lots of other aircraft have disappeared and never been seen again - flight recorders included.

And, I disagree that FDRs/CVRs do not directly affect safety. They can provide valuable information with respect to cause and contributing factors - most importantly in cases where the wreckage leaves little to be examined. What you can learn from them may prevent future similar accidents - thereby directly affecting safety.

Better than floating flight recorders is real-time transmission. I've gotten the impression that it was those ACARs (or other?) transmissions that provided some info about where the a/c was - allowing for quicker location despite the lack of pinging ELT.