Love Letter to WestJet Employees

[Widow]

So you tell me if you think that means I have abandoned citizenship, or have I seized freedom?

You haven't done either if you haven't renounced citizenship.

[Freeman Menard]

I will answer your question as soon as you tell me your definition for citizenship and where you derived the definition. I simply can't answer before then and you insisting I answer your loaded question seems like a trap.

If this was court I would respond "What is the definition of 'citizenship' and from where are you drawing it from." An you would have to answer.

So answer my question if you want me to answer yours and don't try tripping me up with loaded questions.
Here it is:

"What is the definition of 'citizenship' and from where are you drawing it from."

Thank you for your offer to discuss rationally. That is what it was right?

Rob

[Rockie]

What's your definition of "supper" little Billy? What exactly do you mean by "eat"? No loaded questions now you little scamp. Answer me these questions and I would be happy to answer yours.

[Freeman Menard]

Supper, as opposed to dinner is the light evening meal, and enjoyed by those who traditionally had their largest meal at noon and referred to the large meal as dinner. Those who have their largest meal at night generally have a lunch in the afternoon, with a dinner later in the day.
This is not however necessarily the case for the French, as they are genetically difficult.

To eat is to consume, masticate, digest and usually enjoy food. However, "Cheesies" and red wine do not mix at all, and is to be avoided.

As is golf shoes and trampolines.

Rob

[Amateur Turbines]

I have never been so interested in wasting my day in front of a computer as today!!!


Thank you everyone!

[Terry Wrist]

This is the last approval I will give for a new poster who is an obvious "refugee" from your forum. This is, after all, an AVIATION forum. -Widow

I think many here ar missing the point.
WestJet is a Corporation.
A Corporation is a legal fiction. A legal fiction only exists on paper. What you percieve the corporation is, is only a bunch of people who are under contract.
Those corporate employees have a obligation to perform when carring out their duties for said legal fiction.
CANADA is also a corporation, like WestJet and Burger King.
CANADA is registered on the Securities Exchange Commission in New York USA.
You live is a country known as Canada, but the corporation CANADA is different. You cannot live in a corporate fiction.
The rules this corporation have, like WestJet, Burger King, Canada are called STATUTES. Yup, Buger King has STATUTES too.
They may insist that all BK employees must wear a BK cap when working. Does that mean that the employees of WestJet must wear BK caps? No. I thought not.
So, if CANADA has rules, how do these apply to us? Well, if you work in (for) CANADA then you have a SIN (social insurance number). That makes you a very lowly government employee, hence a corporate employee of CANADA. Is there s LAW that you must have a SIN? Is there a LAW that says we MUST ALL BE government employees?
Did you not know that all governments are legally seen as governments of REPRESENTATION?
Do you no that to have a REPRESENTATIVE is a voluntary action and requires CONSENT.
Without CONSENT can they force their rules upon you?
We are human beings. We live in the flesh and blood. These corporations are ALL legal fictions. They do not exist in the real world, but are only people under contract. Since when did we accept the higher authority of something that doesn't exist in the real world?
Are you all MAD?
If you except that Governments are super powers and exist because they like Santa and Superman have special powers than I think a few here may wake up one day and realise that Santa is only a myth invented by Coca Cola. And Superman? He he, Obama?
If you fail to question, then expect to be shafted without Lube.
EVERYTHING IS OK!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGA9ZUEa3ZY

[Osiris]

I was harmed by WestJet when they interfered with my rights and when they failed to honour their contract with me.

Dude, buddy who got tazered at the airport for holding a stapler got "harmed". You had a conversation with a polite Westjet employee. It's unfortunate that you didn't get to go on your trip, no doubt that's frustrating, but you showed up without the proper kit.

Cause and effect. You're responsible for the fact that you didn't board.

Instead of suing WJ or even serving them a fee schedule, I will instead give them an Indemnity Bond worth $25K and if TC wants to charge them, WJ can send them to me with the Bond I gave them, and all liability will be mine. I will indemnify, not crucify.
Secondly I will post a Peace Bond valued at $5K and again gift WJ with that and if I ever act in a manner contrary to peace, I am out that $5K.

Or... here's and idea: show up with id next time!

Why should any airline accommodate some bizarre and unconventional means of identifying you and holding you accountable for your actions when there's a perfectly good system that works for everyone else? Quit being a princess.

You should take this guy's advice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXri8ZCKjc

[Widow]

Freeman Menard,

While you have provided definitions of "supper" and "eat", you have not cited your source.

Just ast "supper" and "eat" are common words, so is "citizen", and with generally accepted definitions such as "a member of a political community" where such membership entitles the bearer to certain rights and holds them to to certain obligations.

In this case, we are talking about "Canadian Citizenship", as defined by the "Citizenship Act" of Canada.

So, are you or are you not a citizen of Canada, as defined by the Act?
Have you, or have you not renounced said citizenship, if, in fact, you once held it?

Terry Wrist:

What difference does it make if a Corporation is "legal fiction" or not? If you decide you want to use the goods and services of that "legal fiction", they in turn have a right to refuse you.

[sarg]

Hello and good day! I am Robert-Arthur, a Sovereign Freeman-on-the-Land of the Menard Family, presently Interim Director of the World Freeman Society and founder of the Elizabeth Anne Elaine Society. I realize you are a busy man yet we have a problem that needs be addressed. I was denied an opportunity to fly on your airline recently due to a memo from Transport Canada stating they knew who I was and I was to be denied my right to fly within Canada if I did not have government issued identification.

Been looking and can't find anywhere the "right to fly within Canada".

Must say your bond offers are a little on the weak side. When corporate fines for violations of the acts and regulations reach $25,000 per occurance a round trip flight would have Westjet out by $25,000. A $5,000 peace bond against the lifes of 100+ passengers and crew and the cost of a $40 million airframe is a joke, if you decide to no longer be peaceful in flight.

Hum, I responded to this earlier this morning and it wasn't posted. Anyway.

Perhaps some light reading of the following may give you some hints on 'flying', aka travelling, mobility... Magna Carta 1215, The BNA Act (a867), The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Constitution Act of 1982) , Canadian Bill of Rights, and the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I will be happy to send these to you in written form if you wish to PM me with an email address.

Cheers,
Michelle

Hi Michelle,

Seens as how you've taken it upon yourself to respond. I'll ask again where does it says flying is a right?

From the Canadian Bill of Rights
Mobility Rights

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOBILITY RIGHTS OF CITIZENS / Right to move and gain livelihood / Limitation / Affirmative action programs.
6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.

(2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right

(a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and
(b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province.
(3) The rights specified in subsection (2) are subject to

(a) any laws or practices of general application in force in a province other than those that discriminate among persons primarily on the basis of province of present or previous residence; and
(b) any laws providing for reasonable residency requirements as a qualification for the receipt of publicly provided social services.
(4) Subsections (2) and (3) do not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration in a province of conditions of individuals in that province who were socially or economically disadvantaged if the rate of employment in that province is below the rate of employment in Canada.

I see the right to "be mobile" not a right to fly or "be mobile" by any method you choose. Please feel free as to share with all of us here, as you have access to a computer, the relevent passage in any of the documents that you listed the right you are assuming.

From the Constitution Act, 1982

Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms

Rights and freedoms in Canada 1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

I would argue the the requirement to show government issued identification before boarding a flight is a reasonable limitation, you may argue that it is not. There are some people in Ottawa that can decide both of these matters, if you're willing to summit to the judgement of other reasonable people.

[Freeman Menard]

I am nothing defined by any Act, so I guess the answer is NO. A big fat one even. No I am not defined by that Act. I refuse to be defined by the words of others, who then claim I cannot understand those words, as I am not a lawyer. Who in their right mind could accept such a situation? And a deception widely held is none the less still a deception, and holding it is not a virtue and does not bring benefits or blessings.

So yes I have claimed an existence that does not grant me the benefits that you receive as a so called Citizen, that does not mean any human being can remove my rights which exist outside the framework within which they exist as a 'citizen'.

You seem to think questioning the way in which people in power are granted power and exercise it is some sort of rejection of government and community in general. It is not. Nor is it an abandonment of duties to our country and fellow man, but the opposite.

Denying consent to be represented and thus governed is the greatest tool we have at our disposal to peacefully ensure complete government accountability. There is nothing better and it is what people fought, killed and died for to protect.


Hope that helps. You seem a little stressed. Need a hug? I showered today and everything...
Rob

[Freeman Menard]

It does say citizens can do something, it does not say that only they can do so and that those who revoke consent no longer can. Nor is it even suggested anywhere. So yes those who have accepted the status of a ward of the state, or legal child can do those things. So can people who wake up and refuse to submit or beg.

As for the right to fly, whose airspace do you think you are using to make a profit? Where does it say you can do so without our consent? Transport Canada can limit and regulate you. They cannot regulate me without a valid excuse and in a free and democratic society, I must be free to decide with whom I will and will not associate, and saying I must enter into a contract with another that sees me abandon a very large body of rights in order to exercise another is ludicrous and is contrary to the law and what the term right even means.

It will boil down not to philosophy but a technical question.

Where does it say you have a duty to deny anyone merely for them not having something issued by the government and where and how could they gain the right to revoke the passengers right to travel without contract or application? Notice how the only people mentioned as capable of being on the list that denies them permission to fly are those who have abandoned and begged to be issued something? There is a reason for that as well, and me cracking that nut in court would disempower Transport Canada severely. See it is the passenger that is relying on the permission of the state to travel and that ability to revoke permission only exist if the party has government issued id. See how tricky they are and why they refuse to put my name on their list or claim I am a danger to anyone or anything except their deception?

Rob

[Freeman Menard]

What difference does it make if a Corporation is "legal fiction" or not? If you decide you want to use the goods and services of that "legal fiction", they in turn have a right to refuse you.

Point one: fictions are not bound by conscience.

Point two: They have no right to refuse without very good reason if their business relies on public space, be it the roads, the airspace or the market commons. Your fiction needs the consent of the non-fictional people to even think of flying. Never forget that. And the government has the legal right to regulate when they have our consent and in the absence of that, the right to regulate reverts back to us. Never forget that either. You exist as an airline and fly in our airspace at our pleasure, and your company has no inherent right to make a profit in our airspace and if you deny us services unlawfully while using the commons we can revoke your license to fly.

Now you will point to Transport Canada and I will say they too need our consent and when they get so arrogant and stop doing their duty or get so eager at their duty they lose sight of the limits of their power they can be replaced. All government agencies are fungible. Never forget that either.

Rob

[Rotten Apple #1]

Rob.

You refer in the above post to "our airspace" and mention "our consent". Who is this "our" you refer to?

[Freeman Menard]

The people of Canada. And that could easily be expanded to The People of the Commonwealth and that could be expanded further to the People of The World.

I know. I dream big...

Rob

[Widow]

Oh, you mean the citizens of Canada, the Commonwealth and the World.

Oh yeah, and you said you aren't the Robert-Arthur Menard cited in johnny's references, page 2 of the thread.

So, there is another Robert-Arthur Menard associated with the Elizabeth Anne Elaine Society who holds the exact same views as you?

[WFSPatrick]

First this topic being under 'Aviation Humor' makes me not want to continue conversation by these means.
Obviously, with all due respect, mods aren't taking the topic of Human Rights very seriously.

Second, there is a difference between Nationality and Citizenship (Do your own research...)

Third, the difference between a corporate legal fiction and a natural body is that you need documents and words to prove you exist, I simply am. I issue the words which breathe life into your world. Your fiction needs living souls with my abilities to create anything for itself. Even past that corporate businesses are regulated (by their own application) by greater bodies of words issued from greater bodies of fiction, I am not.

2012 is the proposed date for the opening of the Canadian Human Rights Museum in Winnipeg, I know it is far off but am hoping we can come to a resolution by then as I am hoping we will be expecting many peace-loving guests for the event.

We champion greater freedoms than our own, we champion yours. Patrick.

[Widow]

Patrick,

This is an AVIATION forum. We have moved the topic to the "Misc/Political Debate/Aviation Humour" Subforum.

If you don't like our forum, please refrain from posting. As I said before, you are lucky we haven't removed the thread altogether and banned "you lot".

Just so you know, many of the users of this forum fight the government on things that will actually save peoples lives. Since it isn't going to kill you being denied boarding due to your choice to not hold government issued ID, most of us don't take your concerns too seriously. We have much bigger fish to fry.

[Terry Wrist]

[quote="SITE ADMIN"]This is the last approval I will give for a new poster who is an obvious "refugee" from your forum. This is, after all, an AVIATION forum. -Widow

Hi and thank you for your most generous approval of my account. I am most humbled to have been able to voice my opinion.
I hope this is OK to have an opinion here as I would hate to rock the status quo by stepping out of line.
Now, may I ask you something. Where do you get off at that I am a REFUGEE?
A Refugee is to include persons who had fled war or other violence in their home country. A person who is seeking to be recognized as a refugee is an asylum seeker. Currently their are worldwide over 9,000,000 refugees. All of which do not have passports by the way. Or countries for that matter, but who cares they are mostly blacks and arabs eh?
So, I cannot accept that I am a refugee, as I live in a country known as New Zealand, and the only war here is one of intelligence, or lack of. It seems however we are not alone here in New Zealand as the world has been over populated by a species of dumb dumbs who once were known for their intellect and reasoning, now move around without questioning anything and without reason. They belong to a Society that they think is a Free & Democratic Society, but in their ignorance cannot even name it. Funny that eh? It's like me saying I have a hot girfriend (which I do have and she is a sweety) and you asking, "Oh Yeah? What's her name?"
My answer being a blank, "Dunno"
What does that sound like. Me being a liar. If I had one, I could name her.
What is the name of your Society?
Anyway. I am not a Refugee and you do not have the right to call me that. I am however from New Zealand, if that helps, and I am also a member of the New Zealand Chapter of the World Freeman Society.
I can also say, that I have never paid income tax....... ever....... and I am nearly 40.
I can also say that the Inland Revenue has no issues with me never paying income tax as they have failed to point out the preamble in the ACT (legislation is not law and not defining the difference is gross negligent and fraudulent) that OBLIGES any of us to pay 1 cent.
I can also say, their are plenty of people who have travelled anywhere and everywhere without a Passport.
Think about it. When were passports introduced? Here in NZ in the 1950's to 60's. And just incase any of you didn't know this, planes were invented before the 1950's and people have been moving around all over the place with a Family Bible as an example, or other Travel Documents.
The Corporation here in NZ who issue PASSPORTS is a PRIVATE corporation owned by the CROWN, which is a again is a Private Corporation in LONDON, which funnily enough is not the Queen but a bunch of rich fags who own you and everyone around you.
If you want to take it up the Batty as the famous Borat would say, then go ahead. If you think the war of independance was won over a friendly chat and a cup of tea, then think again.
If you think the War in Iraq is all about freedom, then think again. Are you any freer? 1.4 Million dead Iraqis would argue the point..... if they could.
Was WW2 & WW1 a an argument about freedoms or was it maybe about what it has always been about. MONEY?

Basically Freedom cannot be spoon fed. It was never spoon fed and the rights you think you have were not offered on a silver platter.
Someone got off their lazy butts and said............... NO.

And you think........ How dare he say NO. HA HA.

Wake up to the music folks. You live in a free and democratic society. But it has no name.

A Roman Maxim in Law states, If a thing cannot be named, than all knowledge of that thing perishes and ceases to exist.

Also another Maxim. Let he who be deceived.... be deceived.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Rob.

So you belong to the small 'p' people of big 'C' Canada?

I just want to verify your membership in your society before we proceed further in de-constructing your argument.

I was a fan of Anarchy, State, and Utopia (R.Nozick) when an undergrad; no doubt you've gone past his initial libertarian views. I don't have the time to completely research your web writings or follow your videos. I'm trying to follow your posts, but you seem to avoid some Q's.

So are you part of the society "people of Canada"? Yes or no?

John

[Widow]

Terry,

Do you see the quotation marks I put around the word "refugee"? Do you know why I put those there?

In case you don't, it was simply for want of a better word and not caring enough to think one up.

This is an AVIATION forum. You, and others who apparently have arrived here via Freeman Menard's posts to his forum, have no interest in aviation. You have been granted a privilege in being allowed membership and the ability to post here. We can take away that privilege if you prefer, or at any time we so choose.

There are plenty of forums the world over where you could go and state your case, where people will not just be more interested, but more sympathetic.

If anyone here is interested, they may well end up on your forum asking questions and learning.

I really don't know why we haven't locked this thread already. I know I'm but a keystroke away from doing so ...

[Freeman Menard]

I think I would accept that. I do accept that there are community standards and customs and I feel bound by those. I feel bound by the law and operate with a strong sense of duty to my fellow man, my country and my friends, family and neighbors and am learning to expand that across this planet.

So yes is what I would say to your question.

I think because I am a member of Mankind and I live within a community with certain standards and do keep them, then likely your labels could be applied. I don't really like the labels though, but if they make others feel more comfortable while looking at this information I can handle it.

Rob

[Freeman Menard]

really don't know why we haven't locked this thread already. I know I'm but a keystroke away from doing so ...

If you do we would like to say thanks for having us and we are sorry if our actions were outside the bounds of your forum.
Never found benefit in harming others, and if we did then we would apologize and offer amends.
Incidentally I do have an honest interest in aviation and would love to have piloting skills. And yes if I did I would get a license, as once you start using shared airspace and pose a risk to others the law recognizes the right of the community to regulate, but of course it must be done lawfully.

Rob

[Rotten Apple #1]

And would you say you follow some set of laws (which only;short version)?

And you would say that you follow no set of Acts or Statutes, as you recognize no authority granted to the Parliament?

And finally you would accept no courts of today as they are by and large illegetimate and self serving constructs of the various Law Societies? Is that it?

Three queries.

John

[Freeman Menard]

And would you say you follow some set of laws (which only;short version)?

In the Criminal Code of Canada you will find some sections refer to 'anyone' and some refer to 'any person'. I would agree I would be included in the definition of 'anyone' and when you look at the distinction, you see that every time they use it, someone is being harmed, or property damaged or rights denied, or there is fraud or some form of dishonour in contracts. Just about every time. So I look at those words and say Yes I can accept those as unacceptable behaviour, but the fact is I am following what is in my heart, and not what is written there, and they merely reflect what I would not do anyway. So accepting those aspects does not put me in a position of constant servitude to the bureaucrats in the government because they codified basic decency and common sense.

And you would say that you follow no set of Acts or Statutes, as you recognize no authority granted to the Parliament?

This is actually two questions and linked by a condition. Yes to the first part. If a body of words are not my law, no one can force me to follow them. It is very simple. I do however recognize the source, nature and limits of the authority those in the government enjoy, and therefore I do see how they can have authority over you because of your actions, and how they cannot over me because of mine. Do you claim that you can transfer authority to your representatives which you yourself do not have to begin with?

And finally you would accept no courts of today as they are by and large illegitimate and self serving constructs of the various Law Societies? Is that it?

I would accept we can use the courts to correct and sanction those who are subject to them and not be subject as well. If I seek remedy against some West Jet employee to the appropriate department within that organization am I bound by the same rules that I am saying the employee failed to keep? I can use a federal court to sanction a federal employee or department and never be a federal employee myself.

Three queries.

Three answers.

John

Rob

[Terry Wrist]

Terry,

Do you see the quotation marks I put around the word "refugee"? Do you know why I put those there?

In case you don't, it was simply for want of a better word and not caring enough to think one up.

This is an AVIATION forum. You, and others who apparently have arrived here via Freeman Menard's posts to his forum, have no interest in aviation. You have been granted a privilege in being allowed membership and the ability to post here. We can take away that privilege if you prefer, or at any time we so choose.

There are plenty of forums the world over where you could go and state your case, where people will not just be more interested, but more sympathetic.

If anyone here is interested, they may well end up on your forum asking questions and learning.

I really don't know why we haven't locked this thread already. I know I'm but a keystroke away from doing so ...

Thanks for your reply, and opinions.
Yes, I arrived here due to Rob's thread. He has issues that concern all of us, and as this is an aviation forum, i feel I have as anyone here the right to an opinion re aviation issues. So, i feel I am in the right place for this. If this is an exclusive forum for people who's opinions only fir your agenda, then by all means delete my account, shut this thread down and hope nobody else asks questions that intimidate you.

I am no Citizen, as I unfortunately don't live in a Republic. You can only be a Citizen of a Republic. Is Canada a Republic?
I am also un governed as it is down to my consent this way.
My reason is because my government, who is supposed to represent my people, do business with murderers and drug dealers that kill poor people for their own gains. I cannot be represented by such a Corporation.

So, as we all live in a nameless free and democratic society, I ask the simple question of where does it say in any law, that you can tell me what to do without my consent? Any other so called rule given the force of law. Where does that force come from? Super Powers? People in Capes? Or my consent?

So, without Corporate ID, and without anything other that ones inalienable rights, where is it written that LEGAL FICTIONS can dictate what we can do and how we can do it?

This is an aviation forum? Does anyone care to explain the law as to what is accepted by law what is the correct paperwork for people who have no country? I live on a place that is known as New Zealand. However the body that issues Passports is a company registered in the USA. Her Majesty the Queen in Right of New Zealand. It is a Bankrupt Corporation that has no power here in New Zealand other than being part of a De Facto Corporate setup that is currently being looked after the Debt Management Office here in Wellington NZ. Yup, as it is BANKRUPT and in RECEIVERSHIP why would I want to do business with it? Go to Dunn & Bradstreet. Do a credit check on the corporation. It is bankrupt. Do you do business with bankrupt corporations? And if so, what makes you think they are safe, compared to a company in the black?

So, as this Corporation kills babies, invades nations at will, imprisons people and tortures them secretly, why would I want to pay them taxes and ask then PERMISSION to exercise a fundamental human right of free travel. Being free to move anywhere and not free as in $'s.

We are a Society of thousands. With the dozen websites or more that promote what we do, there are 10's of thousands of us.
By the middle of next year we expect to be in the 100's of thousands worldwide. And none of us will have passports issued by bankrupt fraudulent corporations. I expect within a few years, there will be millions worldwide.
This is an issue the airlines will have to overcome, unless they too have super powers and exist on a higher level of jurisdiction above God and Man.

Peace eh?