F-35 looking more like white elephant

[cdnpilot77]

You claimed I knew nothing about aviation, which is nonsense.

Just the simple fact you are suggesting Canada buy Russian Fighters for National Defense is nonsense. You clearly have no idea how Canada operates with its allies, and most importantly the US.

If you can't even get me on-board, just imagine how well you're going to do with the general population. You've got a huge PR problem, and if you think you can solve it by attacking me, go right ahead.

Can't even get "you" on board? Who are you? Are you an Air Force pilot currently? Will you be flying the new fighters, whatever they end up being? The general population doesn't have a clue when it comes to National Defense. They buy into Liberal and NDP horse shit that gets fed to the drone population. All they see is the $16billion price tag, well guess what, defense isn't cheap. If Canada wants to be a world leader, we need to have world-class equipment. I don't see a huge PR problem, I see a group of misinformed, government bashing, Russian jet-fan bois who would rather save a buck on the backs of the men and women in uniform.

People think what you tell them to think. The PR problem comes because the only ones talking are the lefties yelling out against this procurement. Therefore the general population thinks that is gospel. I, and I believe Hedley, tend to be right leaning in our political views, but we do not have blind faith in our government. Generally when something is not spoken about, there is a reason and usally that reason is not one that benefits the average joe schmo. As earlier quoted with the Air Canada/Airbus free for all, these "quiet" deals seem to help the politician retirement fund.

[Hedley]

I wanted to apologize: I found proof that it's totally impossible to operate a Russian flighter in the USA:



Yup, absolutely impossible. I am sure it cost them well over a third of a billion dollars per airframe. Yes, indeedy.

Trivial fact: I know that no one here could care less about the facts, but the only thing you need to start a Russian L39, if the internal batteries are dead, is a Cessna 24VDC power source, available at any FBO in North America:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/e ... erplug.php

The Russian connector in the airframe comes with Cyrillic markings on it, though

[Hedley]

Hedley, tend to be right leaning in our political views, but we do not have blind faith in our government

Exactly! Anyone here will tell you I am about 8 points to the right of Atilla the Hun, and I'm the biggest fan of shiny, fast airplanes you will ever meet. I personally think that Stephen Harper is the best Prime Minister Canada has had, in living memory. Next election, I will vote Conservative.

Generally when something is not spoken about, there is a reason and usually that reason is not one that benefits the average joe schmo

Yes! Me being extremely right wing and a fan of shiny fast airplanes and a fan of Stephen Harper doesn't mean that I am a fan of the taxpayer being screwed - yet again - or outright theft and embezzlement of the taxpayer's dollars, which happens under the cloak of "it's classified!"

The romper boys keep saying over and over again that we need to have blind faith in the air force generals, who never make a mistake. Ok. I really don't want to go there, but if you insist, we will. Two words: Russ Williams. The same air force generals that repeatedly promoted that psychopath and made him base commander at Trenton, now want us to have blind faith in their perfect judgement as to how we spend billions and billions of taxpayer dollars?!

You may not think you have a PR problem, but boy, do you have one in spades.

[Rockie]

Hedley

Anything Canada buys must have interoperability with NATO. That does not mean the ability to fly in NATO airspace. The Russians have obviously never designed a combat aircraft with that in mind, whereas every fighter designed by a NATO country has that ability.

It isn't a "nice to have", it's a critical capability that even our old CF-18's had difficulty managing because of their age and lack of upgrades.

[Hedley]

Clearly, that's a problem that could never be solved, even after spending a paltry third of a billion dollars per airframe

[cdnpilot77]

Hedley

Anything Canada buys must have interoperability with NATO. That does not mean the ability to fly in NATO airspace. The Russians have obviously never designed a combat aircraft with that in mind, whereas every fighter designed by a NATO country has that ability.

It isn't a "nice to have", it's a critical capability that even our old CF-18's had difficulty managing because of their age and lack of upgrades.

Werent the Germans operating MIG 29's within NATO just fine? Just because it wasnt designed for NATO doesnt mean it cant be used by NATO. Dont get me wrong, I dont necessarily think Russian jets are the answer either....a little more open book about how/why they made the decision they did is not too much to ask of our government, even without revealing classified information of the airplane itself is reasonable

[cdnpilot77]

Hedley

Anything Canada buys must have interoperability with NATO. That does not mean the ability to fly in NATO airspace. The Russians have obviously never designed a combat aircraft with that in mind, whereas every fighter designed by a NATO country has that ability.

It isn't a "nice to have", it's a critical capability that even our old CF-18's had difficulty managing because of their age and lack of upgrades.

Werent the Germans operating MIG 29's within NATO just fine? Just because it wasnt designed for NATO doesnt mean it cant be used by NATO. Dont get me wrong, I dont necessarily think Russian jets are the answer either....a little more open book about how/why they made the decision they did is not too much to ask of our government, even without revealing classified information of the airplane itself is reasonable

[Hedley]

I dont necessarily think Russian jets are the answer either

Agreed - but someone needs to explain to the taxpayer, before they spend their billions and billions of dollars as to why none of the Russian airframes are suitable, and none of this "it's classified!" crap, or other smoke screens, because I think the Russians already know all about their own airplanes. Really.

Personally, I would be a huge fan of spending a third of a billion dollars per airframe on a couple squadrons of F-22's. That way, you get a leading edge fighter, not some second-rate Edsel like the F-35. However, we can't get F-22's. Heck the USAF can't get as many F-22's as they wanted.

The people here with the huge PR problem that keep denying they have a huge PR problem are incredibly funny. Imagine an aircraft sneaking up behind them, and you try to keep telling them they have a problem, and they screech that because they can't see it, they don't have a problem. Uh huh. Let me know how that works out for you.

[Rockie]

After reunification the German Air Force inherited a bunch of Mig 29's and obviously operated them, but that doesn't mean those airplanes were capable of operating in close cooperation with NATO. Which they weren't. Their value came as adversaries for everybody else. They have different weapons, different communications (Canadian problem in the early 90's) and a whole host of other things that make Russian airplanes incompatible. Politically and militarily having your spare parts and logistical support chain dependant on non-NATO countries is problematic as well in case of a future "misunderstanding". Just ask Iran how it's going with their F-14's.

And no Hedley, some problems can't be fixed.

[bizjets101]

An A-wired Mig-29C - capable of delivering a nuclear weapon - on display at Nellis AFB. Cool.

Mig-29 Nellis.jpg (75.31 KiB) Viewed 1311 times

[bizjets101]

If there not going to sell us F-22's I'd be happy to support Super Hornet's but not this tiny little F-35 that we were arm twisted into buying.

We just blew 30 billion buying up all the crap CMHC mortgages from our banks, and an estimated 22 billion on somebody else's problem in Afghanistan, and 9 billion on F-35's though they seem to have hidden the maintenance and parts bill from us.

If we're going to throw cash away, and be in hock up to our ears anyway, why not twist some American arms and buy the F-22. Please!!!!

[cdnpilot77]

After reunification the German Air Force inherited a bunch of Mig 29's and obviously operated them, but that doesn't mean those airplanes were capable of operating in close cooperation with NATO. Which they weren't. Their value came as adversaries for everybody else. They have different weapons, different communications (Canadian problem in the early 90's) and a whole host of other things that make Russian airplanes incompatible. Politically and militarily having your spare parts chain dependant on non-NATO countries is problematic as well in case of a future "misunderstanding". Just ask Iran how it's going with their F-14's.

And no Hedley, some problems can't be fixed.

It doesnt matter how or why they were acquired, and yes I was familiar with that, point is they were used, and used effectively with NATO.

The German Democratic Republic (also known as East Germany) bought 24 MiG-29s (20 MiG-29As, four MiG-29UBs), which entered service in 1988—1989. After the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989 and reunification of Germany in October 1990, the MiG-29s and other aircraft of the East German Luftstreitkräfte der NVA were integrated into the West German Luftwaffe. After upgrades by DaimlerChrysler Aerospace (now EADS) for NATO compatibility, they were designated MiG-29G and MiG-29GT.

[Rockie]

It doesnt matter how or why they were acquired, and yes I was familiar with that, point is they were used, and used effectively with NATO.

Not quite. They were used effectively against NATO as adversary trainers. Why dress up an F-16 to look like a Mig when you can fight against a real Mig? It does in fact also matter how they were aquired. They were inherited, not purchased as a matter of choice. The GAF, or any NATO country would never buy Russian equipment to form part of their frontline force for the reasons stated before.

Do you know why Canada spent a ton of money upgrading the CF-18's? It was because in the first Gulf War they found them to be incapable of operating as effectively as they should with other NATO equipment. They didn't even have properly encrypted radios. And that's a western fighter. You would have to rebuild a Russian one from the ground up.

[bizjets101]

Germany picked up 24 Mig-29s from East Germany - one they put on static display, one crashed, and the other 22 were sold to Poland.

Luftwaffe Mig-29 Aggressor

Luftwaffe Mig-29.jpg (64.93 KiB) Viewed 1302 times

[bizjets101]

In an effort to convince the Netanyahu government to impose a three-month moratorium on settlement construction in the West Bank, the Obama administration offered Israel last week a long list of security and diplomatic benefits, including 20 F-35s for free.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=195342

[cdnpilot77]

Germany picked up 24 Mig-29s from East Germany - one they put on static display, one crashed, and the other 22 were sold to Poland.

Bizjets...inform Rockie that Poland is a member of NATO....but no NATO country would EVER buy Russian jets for their frontline defence...his words, not mine.

[albertdesalvo]

Here is the opening line from the very first post in this thread:

Maybe we should just be buying the Chinese stealth fighter.

How come nobody is lambasting cdnpilot77 for suggesting the CAF purchase Chinese airplanes? Could it be because it was obviously an offhand wisecrack?

Yet Hedley is being trashed for suggesting the CAF buy Migs & Sukhois, when he said no such thing. All he said was they were good bang for the buck. We've had a newbie come in here (might be a sockpuppet newbie, looks a little suspicious) and start ranting about how Hedley has no clue about matters of defense. Meantime, Hedley said himself that buying Russian planes would clearly be unacceptable for Canada.

All this commotion over nothing. I will say one thing for Hedley, though.... he has a way of attracting flies.

[Expat]

Obviously, some of you have no idea about modern warfare...
I am sitting at a northern Afghan Airport, smoking and drinking coffee, waiting for my ride. Two German Tornados take off, with full noise and after-burners, for a photo session???
Even in the longest war in the last century, air operations are that simple...
Air supremacy was gained against bare-feet talibs armed with old AKs. Ha! Ha!
That kind of ops can be done with a Lear Jet!

[cdnpilot77]

Here is the opening line from the very first post in this thread:

Maybe we should just be buying the Chinese stealth fighter.

How come nobody is lambasting cdnpilot77 for suggesting the CAF purchase Chinese airplanes? Could it be because it was obviously an offhand wisecrack?

Yet Hedley is being trashed for suggesting the CAF buy Migs & Sukhois, when he said no such thing. All he said was they were good bang for the buck. We've had a newbie come in here (might be a sockpuppet newbie, looks a little suspicious) and start ranting about how Hedley has no clue about matters of defense. Meantime, Hedley said himself that buying Russian planes would clearly be unacceptable for Canada.

All this commotion over nothing. I will say one thing for Hedley, though.... he has a way of attracting flies.

I agree...but I think the initial part of your post is because I am so loved and beloved

[Rockie]

Bizjets...inform Rockie that Poland is a member of NATO....but no NATO country would EVER buy Russian jets for their frontline defence...his words, not mine.

Poland is a former east bloc nation that only recently (1999) became a member of NATO over the strenuous objection of Russia. As a former east bloc nation their armed forces are comprised of former east bloc equipment, which the Mig 29 fits nicely into. Unlike Canada or any other non-east bloc nation.

My point stands.

Do you really think Canada, Norway, GB, Germany, Netherlands etc. would buy equipment that depends on a logistical support and supply chain from Russia? Does that make any sense to you from a political, and more importantly military standpoint?

[cdnpilot77]

Governments have proven day in and day out that "what makes sense" in not necessarily their course of action. Once again, not saying Russian airplanes are the way to go, just make this process a little more transparent.

[Rockie]

It is transparent to anybody who thinks about it a little bit. While western fighter pilots may look at the latest Sukoi's with drool hanging out of their mouths (I know I do), actually equipping with them makes no sense logistically, militarily or politically. You don't have to be a defense planner to figure that out.

As for what Canada did buy, I agree. I think there was some very high level arm twisting intended to get foreign support for the airplane to show the US Congress. This might be the best airplane we can get if you forget about the cost overrun difficulties and waning support it has in the US, but even then I don't think so for one very good reason. It has one engine.

Despite Peter Mackay's personal guarantee that its one engine will never stop working for any reason, I wouldn't want to be spending a lot of time up north in it given the abysmal SAR ability we have up there.

[albertdesalvo]

My point stands.

Do you really think Canada, Norway, GB, Germany, Netherlands etc. would buy equipment that depends on a logistical support and supply chain from Russia? Does that make any sense to you from a political, and more importantly military standpoint?

Here is my point: no one here thinks this, so why are we arguing about it?

[Rockie]

I guess you haven't read Hedley's posts have you?

[CSk3RampBOY]

Russian L39

Hedley, just wanted to correct your quote. The L39 is a czech aircraft and not Russian. Though yes, it is widely used as a jet trainer in the Russian air force.

What I don't understand is, how can we possibly patrol the arctic with the F35???? Single engine and less range, or at least that's what they advertise. How can the F35 intercept the new Su35 BM when the Russians continue to invade our airspace? Its a long way to the arctic from Cold Lake.

The Pak Fa or T50, may be a few years away from joining the Air Force. But this baby is a real threat!