Annual Inspection and Maintenance for Owners

[crazy_aviator]

Ame s are generally wrench turners and often inept at sound business practices. They will teach you how to do THEIR job so you can take away THEIR business and livelihood in the future. They are more than happy to find a way to lessen your annual bill by having you do all the panels, simpler work and anything else you convince them you can do, thereby lessening their pay at the end of the week and increasing the likelihood that his wife with 2 young children will have to go back to work 60 hrs a week as a RN, while shipping the babies to a faceless daycare,,,,,all this to make your wallet fatter !!!!!
Lesson in point, I ONCE ALLOWED 4 (four) people to work on a small plane ( partnership in 1 plane) so they could save $$$,,, WHO was the greater fool them or me? ,,, I conclude that it was ME!
Pilots will kiss ass for an extra hour flying a crapped out Navajo ,, AME s will sell their future and livelihood to keep their selfish customers happy!
Welcome to Aviation !!!

[Posthumane]

crazy - while reducing the amount of work you have available to you by "letting" the owners do some of their own work may not be good business practice in the short term, keeping customers IS good business practice. I know a number of people, myself included, that spend a huge percentage of their paycheques on flying and keeping an aircraft. If it weren't for these cost saving measures, some people wouldn't be able to afford to fly. One can simply argue that it's simply "the price of doing business" or "the cost of entry" and if you can't afford to have your aircraft maintained "properly" by having all the work done by your AME at his price then you shouldn't be flying, but that's a self defeating argument. The less people can afford to fly, the less airplanes there will be in the sky, and the less aircraft for you to work on. That amounts to less business in the long term, and taken to the extreme, the death of general aviation.

[crazy_aviator]

When is the last time you pulled off all 4 tires at canadian tire,,,had the technician change and balance them and then let you reinstall them ,,,, giving you pointers along the way ,,,, so that you can change and balance your own tires using the shop, next year ??? Cant afford the car, take a bus ,, cant afford the plane , take a car !

[niss]

When is the last time you pulled off all 4 tires at canadian tire,,,had the technician change and balance them and then let you reinstall them ,,,, giving you pointers along the way ,,,, so that you can change and balance your own tires using the shop, next year ??? Cant afford the car, take a bus ,, cant afford the plane , take a car !

Well, it's under elementary mx, so there's not much you can do about it. If you wouldn't want to do my annual because I all ready did my own tires, plugs, battery, fairings, etc then fine. I'll get someone else.

[System Message]

Crazy_aviator, could I get a maintenance estimate.
I need the bugs wiped off the windshield, and Kentucky Fried Chicken bones removed from the seatback pockets.

[photofly]

This thread serves a useful purpose - it's good evidence that there do exist some AME's who see GA owners as nothing but a charity dedicated to keeping them in the style to which they'd like to become accustomed. Not all - as I know first hand - but definitely some.

[System Message]

Some of them like to decorate their hangers with other peoples airplanes for weeks at a time, and then divide up the number of working hours in a week by the number of airplanes in their possesion and enter that number on the bill as maintenance hours.

[crazy_aviator]

No Problem, system message, While im doing your annual, my apprentice can do that, OR if he/she is busy learning how to rig the flight controls, i will do that myself, and yes, the interior clean and ext. wash are free, after i do your annual! ,,, Please reread my canadian tire analogy

[System Message]

I reread that. I would call it perfectly normal to bring wheels to a tire shop. How are they going to sell tires at a tire shop without having some friendly advice about tires?

[crazy_aviator]

Ive worked for many a shop that quoted on items which take 0.1 and 0.2 hours in order to satisfy the customer. Ive seen the customer talk and talk and talk to the bosses and ame's for literally hours ( who pays for that? ) I ve given and my bosses have given away technical info, suggested cheaper ways of doing things, educated owners on cost cutting measures, instructed them on their rights being owners, and a thousand other things designed to HELP THEM maintain their planes SAFELY and with MINIMAL cost. At some point, the bleeding becomes too much and the foolishness of giving it all away makes one think that changing tires at canadian tire without all the foolishness of cheap owners nickel and diming you out of your Kraft Dinner, is the way to go !!!
One more thing, If i teach a customer to service plugs and he does a good job in between inspections, then fails to torque the plugs down, or changes the oil filter but doesnt check for leaks and does NOT enter either of these actions,,,, MY signature is on the plane since last annual and i could be blamed for any incident or accident occuring due to owner maintenance!

[System Message]

No you cannot be held responsible for things which are out of your control. The pilot checks those things on a preflight inspection.

[crazy_aviator]

System, please reread and notice the highlights

When is the last time you pulled off all 4 tires at canadian tire,,,had the technician change and balance them and then let you reinstall them ,,,, giving you pointers along the way ,,,, so that you can change and balance your own tires using the shop, next year ??? Cant afford the car, take a bus ,, cant afford the plane , take a car !

Bringing in your tires to can tire or an aviation shop is perfectly normal,,, its using the shops equipment AND the technicians time for FREE that is offensive to people who want to put food on the table and consider their profession professional . Does a doctor allow you to assist in an operation ? Does a transit driver allow you to sit on his/her lap and let you drive the bus in downtown Toronto / Vancouver? allowing you a free ride and teaching you to drive a bus at the same time .

[crazy_aviator]

Your right, he is ultimately NOT held responsible, BUT like that central bank president, in the publics eye, he is guilty until proven innosent.

[System Message]

The compensation the tire shop received was negotiated as part of the sale or no sale occured. Tire shops mount tires in a manner which is barely adequate to keep most customers from complaining. Few will take the time to properly balance a tire which might require mounting and shifting it's position on a wheel several times to find the best spot to minimize the amount of lead required. Achieving the best possible static and dynamic balance should also consider the expected rpm the individual driver wishes to run the wheel at. Only the vehicle owner should be mounting some tires.

[Posthumane]

crazy - when was the last time you spent $4k or more at canadian tire getting your car serviced? In the last 2 years, I've spent over 40% of the value of my aircraft at my AMO, without having any major repairs done. Your canadian tire comparison is not valid, because plenty of people take their tires into the tire shop themselves, and the tire shops I know of around here would have no problems with people doing that in their lot. I don't think anyone doing elementary maintenance expects or asks the AME to let them use his shop - I do my oil changes in a friend's hangar or the great outdoors. My AME has offered to let me use a couple of things because he's a nice guy and I'm a loyal customer, having spent more money there than I did for my university program.

Cant afford the car, take a bus ,, cant afford the plane , take a car !

So you would rather have less aircraft around for you to work on? GA has already declined because of the attitude that you share, that flying should be expensive and there is nothing to be done about it but suck it up rather than look for solutions to the problem.

[SeptRepair]

Crazy, your bangin your head against the wall here. I get what your saying.

[niss]

Crazy, your bangin your head against the wall here. I get what your saying.

So you agree that an owner should not be doing Elementary Mx?

[crazy_aviator]

I do my own elementary maintenance on my cars BUT when i need a specialized job done with specialized tools using someone elses shop ,,,, i leave it to the pros, thats what they are paid for.

[crazy_aviator]

Post,

I didnt regulate the fuel prices,,,THEY are expensive, I didnt regulate the parts prices , they can be pretty pricey, I didnt regulate the 34,000/yr hangarage leasing costs in the Okanagan for a SMALL hangar, I didnt control the parking and insurance costs on an A/C in this industry. The AME/AMO is caught up in this inflation and CANT affort to be the cheapest part of the link for the sake of CHEAP small airplane owners,,,, Im not talking about owners who are reasonable ( most are) but the ones who nickel and dime, meanwhile, have a 60,000/yr job, wife working , 2 nearly new cars, 3 wk vacations each year and a 400 thousand dollar home thats twice as lagre as is needed!

[ruddersup?]

Crazy, I have to agree with you. I've been in this for 50 years now, been an AMO, have owned more that 40 aircraft and done hundreds of annuals. Generally the higher income individual is suspicious of the work being done on their aircraft and will challenge it and most don't know what a S/B, A.D. or crankshaft is never mind CAR 625. Now as much as these type drive me nuts I still prefer them to the guy that knows everything and wants to work on their own aircraft. I'm not there to educate them, it's my living so I don't allow them to "help". Let them get into homebuilt aircraft that's perfect, keep away from T.C. aircraft.
What is it with flying, a bloody serious hobby, and cutting corners such as looking for the cheapest annual around. I just don't get it. Most have lost touch with the cost to keep their aircraft airworthy, because they had a guy with a pickup truck do an annual many years back for $500.

[azimuthaviation]

. Most have lost touch with the cost to keep their aircraft airworthy, because they had a guy with a pickup truck do an annual many years back for $500.

Most people who live outside the system need the system they shun to live off of. Those $500 annual guys only exist because they go to the legit shops one by one to borrow an avantext CD, a bolt, whatever they need from your stock, 10 feet of wire, etc etc. And they never have anything to return the favor, like youll ever flag down his pickup to see if he's got the connector or tool youre looking for. Best way to get rid of those guys is dont feed them. If they want to go into your scrap metal bin for a pice of alluminum, tell him its ten bucks, or else he can go buy a 4x8 sheet for 150 and keep the rest, like we do. Need a screw? Sure, but we only sell mimimum 50. Avantex CD? Need a ring terminal you cant find at canadian tire? ...you get the point.

[iflyforpie]

. Most have lost touch with the cost to keep their aircraft airworthy, because they had a guy with a pickup truck do an annual many years back for $500.

Most people who live outside the system need the system they shun to live off of. Those $500 annual guys only exist because they go to the legit shops one by one to borrow an avantext CD, a bolt, whatever they need from your stock, 10 feet of wire, etc etc. And they never have anything to return the favor, like youll ever flag down his pickup to see if he's got the connector or tool youre looking for. Best way to get rid of those guys is dont feed them. If they want to go into your scrap metal bin for a pice of alluminum, tell him its ten bucks, or else he can go buy a 4x8 sheet for 150 and keep the rest, like we do. Need a screw? Sure, but we only sell mimimum 50. Avantex CD? Need a ring terminal you cant find at canadian tire? ...you get the point.

The thing is, lots of these guys know not to darken doors of shops, so the work just doesn't get done. 'I only have one bottle jack so I guess we won't swing the gear--it works okay in the air, right?' 'If your mag drops are fine, no need to check the timing. I don't have a mag synchronizer anyways.' 'You can just spin the prop to check compressions.'

crazy - when was the last time you spent $4k or more at canadian tire getting your car serviced? In the last 2 years, I've spent over 40% of the value of my aircraft at my AMO, without having any major repairs done. Your canadian tire comparison is not valid...

Absolutely it is valid!! I drive a $500 beater (good condition, well maintained, just old), and I spend at least the principle on it a year in maintenance. If you are going to make a comparison make a fair one at least. The price of a new 162 is over $100,000, s 172 is around $300,000, a 206 is over half a million, and a Baron is well over a million. The parts are based on the new aircraft and the shop fees are for the most part cheaper than automotive ones. We can't help that TC makes you inspect your aircraft every year and if we are putting ink to inspection we are doing a thorough job and charging for it.

So you would rather have less aircraft around for you to work on? GA has already declined because of the attitude that you share, that flying should be expensive and there is nothing to be done about it but suck it up rather than look for solutions to the problem.

The problem is the divergence of conditions. Fewer and fewer people are willing to own and properly maintain an aircraft and shops are less and less able to survive on the existing business. Cut the prices, sure, then go out of business. I've never met a rich AME who made it owning his own GA shop. We operate one for our fleet and for a few private customers. If they were my only revenue I would literally starve.

[AEROBAT]

. Let them get into homebuilt aircraft that's perfect, keep away from T.C. aircraft

Most pilots have no idea how much work it is to properly maintain a homebuilt. You don't have to deal with the traceability issues [ for the most part ] but you still have to maintain it to airworthiness standards. You can use things like automotive alternators, gell cells ect. and save some money but the important things like jugs, cranks and carbs you have to buy like anyone else.

Of course the big savings is labour but if you have to drive 40 miles to get a hand full of AN bolts or spend a week hammering and riveting some part because it's not an off the shelf item your time gets eaten up pretty quick.

If they have a problem with what an annual costs from an AME they won't last long in the homebuilt world.

[crazy_aviator]

This question is related to annuals and owner responsibility but is directed towards the AME s mostly.

Scenario:

Annual is finished , 40 snags found , 10 rectified and entered in the tech and journey logs, 20 are of a non-airworthiness nature and are not entered anywhere except the amo s snag sheets under the annual work order. 10 snags are airworthiness snags BUT the owner does not want them entered in the journey AND tech logs, you say they must be entered in the Journey logbook as per CARS 605.94 table item 10.

Question #1 WHAT is an airworthiness snag ? ( eg" the control cable is flat spotted or the bearings are lightly rusted but just within limits and are expected to be beyond limits prior to next annual) Another example, the engine control cables are 15 yrs old and worn or the hydraulic lines are old and a little stiff but not leaking ,,,

#2 What is a "snag" there is NO CARS definition?

#3 Where in the CARS does it say we can keep a record OTHER than the Journey log of snags rectified which affect the airworthiness of the aircraft ?

[summitx]

My aircraft is for sale. It will be gone by this fall. Got my license in 82 owned ac since 86 worked 10 years in the business. My annual went up 40% in the last 2 years for the basic work. This combined with fuel price increases, Nav Canada fees, increase medical costs, landing fees, increased airport tie down fees etc makes it not worth while. Interestingly the increase in the annual costs was the straw that broke my back. I hope the hole you folks are shooting in your foot feels good. GA is dead. Bought a motorcycle and a parapont. GA was fun but not that much fun.

As I see it the real loss is the one less guy in the coffee shop talking about the great flight he had yesterday and how great it is to own an aircraft.

I suspect most of you will be out of business soon. You've certainly lost my business.