sure does doc the whole thing should have gone out to tender in the first place! mr manza royally hoovered many, the 'god complex' comes to mind . if his secret salary (1.4)mil is an indicator of the is way he treated patients one wonders if they have any more blood to give .
there are good pilots n paramedics at ornge but the whole thing stinks like rotting garbage on a hot july day.
the 12 was not salesmanship good aircraft for what it is used for and we disagree on the 'night fighter '
there is just as many opportunities to pooch a twin in night conditions as a single re the tsb reports on king air 100 in sandy bay sask / twin otter etc / even a 737 which you and i had people we knew on board. NOTE TSB REPORTWONT BE AVAILABEL UNTIL SEPT 2012 AT THE EARLIEST. SO WONT SPECULATE. point is they all had 2 turbine engines, and both were working at the point of impact.. so redundancy was not the issuse.
back to the topic my 1 question now is is manza on indefinate medical leave getting his 1.4 mill salary while not even working
Mazza FIRED. Orgne in receivership
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
The more I read this stuff the more despondent I become with the thought processes of some of you out there.
Oldn cold are you suggesting that if I were to lose an engine at night or in IMC conditions I am as likely to die in a twin engine airplane as I am in a single engine airplane?
That is not only insulting to my ability as a pilot it makes me wonder how many more there are that think like you out there.
Oldn cold are you suggesting that if I were to lose an engine at night or in IMC conditions I am as likely to die in a twin engine airplane as I am in a single engine airplane?
That is not only insulting to my ability as a pilot it makes me wonder how many more there are that think like you out there.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Apples and orAnges my dear oldncold. How many engines you have has nothing to do with whether or not you're going to roll it in a ball. You can drive a B52 into the side of a mountain with all 8 running. It's just, if I have an engine go south, I have the "potential" to be able to bring it home. You don't. You know it, I know it. Yes, nobody is arguing the safety record of the PC12. It's been very good. Bloody great in fact. But. And you know as well as I do what the "but" is.
Back to Ornge. It should be totally dismantled. The medevac business go back to tenders. The PC12's? Ship them back to Switzerland, or let existing air services operate them on medevacs. Paint them blue and call it "Blu".....the "e" stands for "extravagance", which would be gone.......
Back to Ornge. It should be totally dismantled. The medevac business go back to tenders. The PC12's? Ship them back to Switzerland, or let existing air services operate them on medevacs. Paint them blue and call it "Blu".....the "e" stands for "extravagance", which would be gone.......
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tons-o-fun
- Rank 2
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:20 pm
- Location: CYVR
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
$600,000 spent on Execs getting their Ivey school degrees.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/poli ... tives?bn=1
Glad to see Mazza didn't leave out his buddies with the free for all.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/poli ... tives?bn=1
Glad to see Mazza didn't leave out his buddies with the free for all.
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Problem #1 NON-PROFIT
competition tends to keep you honest!
competition tends to keep you honest!
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
The old joke used to be : How to make a million dollars in aviation start with two million dollars 
The Ornge group of companies was started with eight million dollars of Government seed money by Government employees.
So the big question is: Where did the 260 million dollars come from ?
Who has that kind of money ?
I have a few bridges i want to sell them,hell i even throw in a couple of toll roads as well.Guaranfuckingteed income baby
The Ornge group of companies was started with eight million dollars of Government seed money by Government employees.
So the big question is: Where did the 260 million dollars come from ?
Who has that kind of money ?
I have a few bridges i want to sell them,hell i even throw in a couple of toll roads as well.Guaranfuckingteed income baby
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Doc wrote:Apples and orAnges my dear oldncold. How many engines you have has nothing to do with whether or not you're going to roll it in a ball. You can drive a B52 into the side of a mountain with all 8 running. It's just, if I have an engine go south, I have the "potential" to be able to bring it home. You don't. You know it, I know it. Yes, nobody is arguing the safety record of the PC12. It's been very good. Bloody great in fact. But. And you know as well as I do what the "but" is.
Back to Ornge. It should be totally dismantled. The medevac business go back to tenders. The PC12's? Ship them back to Switzerland, or let existing air services operate them on medevacs. Paint them blue and call it "Blu".....the "e" stands for "extravagance", which would be gone.......
So the pilots and other personnel who had nothing to do with this ordeal should all lose their jobs?
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Cry me a river! Like that's NEVER happened before. Give me a break.....I can name pilots who lost their jobs just because Ornge came along in the first place. Did your Mommy tell you life was fair there, flyby17?flyby17 wrote:
So the pilots and other personnel who had nothing to do with this ordeal should all lose their jobs?
Everybody at Eastern Airlines lost their jobs.
Canada 2000
Pan Am
Wardair
CP AIR
Odyssey.....too many to even TRY to list.
Keep in mind there, if it wasn't for "this ordeal" there would never have been jobs at Ornge in the first place.
If tendered properly, using existing equipment (PC12's) most of the pilots would have a very easy time finding work with the operators who took over.
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
The road goes on forever, and the party never ends....tons-o-fun wrote:$600,000 spent on Execs getting their Ivey school degrees.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/poli ... tives?bn=1
Glad to see Mazza didn't leave out his buddies with the free for all.
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
I wonder what the S&P rating is today.....
Ornge has newness to offer:
Barry Critchley, Financial Post Published: Wednesday, June 10, 2009
Participants in the fixed-income world love new names. Underwriters like them because it gives them another issuer to sell and to trade, while investors love them because it gives them a chance to diversify their portfolios. Buyers especially like them when the issue comes with a high rating and are related to government activities. And the rating agencies like them because it gives them a chance to broaden their rating skills.
"We like them because we have never seen this type of entity before. We rate a lot of public sector entities in Canada and this new issuer adds to our universe in Canada," said Stephen Ogilvie, director of international public finance at Standard & Poor's, the only firm that provided a rating on the unsecured debentures.
Ogilvie is referring to Ornge Investment Trust, the country's newest fixed-income issuer. (Ornge used to be known as the Ontario Air Ambulance Services Co.) This week it raised $275-million of 25-year debt by selling debt rated AA-by way of a private placement. The debt issued by the federally registered, not-for-profit corporation without share capital featured a 5.727% coupon.
Ornge is a special-purpose entity set up to raise debt capital. Since being spun out of the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long Term Care in the spring of 2005, Ornge has been responsible for all aspects of Ontario's air ambulance system. In that operating agreement, Ornge's responsibilities are defined, as are the services it will provide and the funding model. "Ornge is a monopoly supplier of a vital service," said S&P in its pre-sale ratings report.
S&P spoke of Ornge's strengths including "the strong support from the province, a high degree of integration with the provincial health system, the essentiality of the services provided, robust liquidity, healthy financial results, and an excellent record of flight and medical operations. But the negatives included, "a significant increase in Ornge's debt for fleet renewal in the near future, the day-to-day operational pressures typical of transport medicine, and the company's reliance on a single funding source."
The issuer plans to use all the proceeds from the issue to purchase 12 new helicopters and 10 new planes.
---
Not all investors liked what was being offered by Ornge. It issued so-called amortizing bonds, which are different from a regular bond. Accordingly, instead of getting twice-a-year interest payments plus a bullet payment at maturity investors were offered a mix of interest and principal on the way through. As a result, the average life of the deal is 16½ years -- or about two-thirds as long as a normal 25-year bullet issue.
Some investors don't like that structure for a couple of reasons: it makes it harder for the manager to match liabilities and assets; and the bonds aren't as liquid as regular bonds, with the result that they don't trade as well. On the other hand, the bonds come with less refinancing risk because there is a smaller amount of principal outstanding at maturity. On this deal, some investors didn't like the yield, in large part because they felt they weren't offered a high enough spread. The debentures were priced at 183 basis points over comparable Canada bonds and 80 basis points above Ontario bonds. TD Securities was the lead manager on the financing that was placed with 13 buyers. National Bank Financial and Scotia Capital were co-managers.
Ornge has newness to offer:
Barry Critchley, Financial Post Published: Wednesday, June 10, 2009
Participants in the fixed-income world love new names. Underwriters like them because it gives them another issuer to sell and to trade, while investors love them because it gives them a chance to diversify their portfolios. Buyers especially like them when the issue comes with a high rating and are related to government activities. And the rating agencies like them because it gives them a chance to broaden their rating skills.
"We like them because we have never seen this type of entity before. We rate a lot of public sector entities in Canada and this new issuer adds to our universe in Canada," said Stephen Ogilvie, director of international public finance at Standard & Poor's, the only firm that provided a rating on the unsecured debentures.
Ogilvie is referring to Ornge Investment Trust, the country's newest fixed-income issuer. (Ornge used to be known as the Ontario Air Ambulance Services Co.) This week it raised $275-million of 25-year debt by selling debt rated AA-by way of a private placement. The debt issued by the federally registered, not-for-profit corporation without share capital featured a 5.727% coupon.
Ornge is a special-purpose entity set up to raise debt capital. Since being spun out of the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long Term Care in the spring of 2005, Ornge has been responsible for all aspects of Ontario's air ambulance system. In that operating agreement, Ornge's responsibilities are defined, as are the services it will provide and the funding model. "Ornge is a monopoly supplier of a vital service," said S&P in its pre-sale ratings report.
S&P spoke of Ornge's strengths including "the strong support from the province, a high degree of integration with the provincial health system, the essentiality of the services provided, robust liquidity, healthy financial results, and an excellent record of flight and medical operations. But the negatives included, "a significant increase in Ornge's debt for fleet renewal in the near future, the day-to-day operational pressures typical of transport medicine, and the company's reliance on a single funding source."
The issuer plans to use all the proceeds from the issue to purchase 12 new helicopters and 10 new planes.
---
Not all investors liked what was being offered by Ornge. It issued so-called amortizing bonds, which are different from a regular bond. Accordingly, instead of getting twice-a-year interest payments plus a bullet payment at maturity investors were offered a mix of interest and principal on the way through. As a result, the average life of the deal is 16½ years -- or about two-thirds as long as a normal 25-year bullet issue.
Some investors don't like that structure for a couple of reasons: it makes it harder for the manager to match liabilities and assets; and the bonds aren't as liquid as regular bonds, with the result that they don't trade as well. On the other hand, the bonds come with less refinancing risk because there is a smaller amount of principal outstanding at maturity. On this deal, some investors didn't like the yield, in large part because they felt they weren't offered a high enough spread. The debentures were priced at 183 basis points over comparable Canada bonds and 80 basis points above Ontario bonds. TD Securities was the lead manager on the financing that was placed with 13 buyers. National Bank Financial and Scotia Capital were co-managers.
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Was the Ornge investment trust a public offering? What exchange is it listed on? What is it's symbol?
If the institutional investors lose their investment they'll want blood.
If the institutional investors lose their investment they'll want blood.
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North Shore
- Rank Moderator
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- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
- Location: Straight outta Dundarave...
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Please bear with me as I'm a bit of a dullard on the machinations of high finance (maybe I'll ask my employer to pay for my MBA, and then I'll get it 
)
So, the Ontario Government spins off the air ambulance business to a private company, but backs them financially. However, it's a company that has a monopoly in what it provides, and only one client/payer - the Provincial Government. That 'private' company then issues bonds, yielding a slightly higher rate of return than normal Provincial/Federal government bonds. The offering sells out, PDQ (as it should, with competitive rates of return...)
So what happens if/when ORNGE can't pay back its bonds? Who carries the can, the investors? TD Securities? Taxpayers?
Call me cynical, but my money's on the taxpayer covering any losses.
And you guys wondered why people were 'occupying' places
) So, the Ontario Government spins off the air ambulance business to a private company, but backs them financially. However, it's a company that has a monopoly in what it provides, and only one client/payer - the Provincial Government. That 'private' company then issues bonds, yielding a slightly higher rate of return than normal Provincial/Federal government bonds. The offering sells out, PDQ (as it should, with competitive rates of return...)
So what happens if/when ORNGE can't pay back its bonds? Who carries the can, the investors? TD Securities? Taxpayers?
Call me cynical, but my money's on the taxpayer covering any losses.
And you guys wondered why people were 'occupying' places
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
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B_Boomer_54
- Rank 2
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:44 am
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
I suppose the same can be said for you regarding Air Canada models ...Doc wrote:FL280, Santa was good to you, I trust. Got you a nice model of a PC12 you can paint OrAnge and put on your mantel to remember the "glory days" by I'd bet?
Just don't wait till the ship actually ducks under the waves before you bail. A sinking ship tends to suck folks under with it.
Enjoy the New Year!
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cdnpilot77
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
B_Boomer_54 wrote:I suppose the same can be said for you regarding Air Canada models ...Doc wrote:FL280, Santa was good to you, I trust. Got you a nice model of a PC12 you can paint OrAnge and put on your mantel to remember the "glory days" by I'd bet?
Just don't wait till the ship actually ducks under the waves before you bail. A sinking ship tends to suck folks under with it.
Enjoy the New Year!
Obviously new to the forums! Maybe go back and read some of that posters previous posts and you will see how silly of a statement it is that you made.
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
I'll be honest with you......I have NO idea what that means??B_Boomer_54 wrote:I suppose the same can be said for you regarding Air Canada models ...Doc wrote:FL280, Santa was good to you, I trust. Got you a nice model of a PC12 you can paint OrAnge and put on your mantel to remember the "glory days" by I'd bet?
Just don't wait till the ship actually ducks under the waves before you bail. A sinking ship tends to suck folks under with it.
Enjoy the New Year!
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B_Boomer_54
- Rank 2
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:44 am
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
No thanks. I have read enough. There is a fine line between criticism and being a demoting prick.cdnpilot77 wrote:B_Boomer_54 wrote:I suppose the same can be said for you regarding Air Canada models ...Doc wrote:FL280, Santa was good to you, I trust. Got you a nice model of a PC12 you can paint OrAnge and put on your mantel to remember the "glory days" by I'd bet?
Just don't wait till the ship actually ducks under the waves before you bail. A sinking ship tends to suck folks under with it.
Enjoy the New Year!
Obviously new to the forums! Maybe go back and read some of that posters previous posts and you will see how silly of a statement it is that you made.
What else is new around here? Go with the flow or be labelled unworthy and invalid. Please pardon me while I fail to take you seriously.
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cdnpilot77
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
That poster and many others make very vaild points regarding this topic in which I happen to agree with and clearly you do not. If that makes me or them "demoting pricks" then that is your opinion I guess. Not everyone is touchy feely and most are fairly passionate about how other people spend their money.B_Boomer_54 wrote:No thanks. I have read enough. There is a fine line between criticism and being a demoting prick.
What else is new around here? Go with the flow or be labelled unworthy and invalid. Please pardon me while I fail to take you seriously.
So back to the topic at hand, here is a question for you, where is the money going to come from as North Shore stated? Are you willing to cover it?
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Chuck Ellsworth
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3074
- Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
- Location: Always moving
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Maybe the time has come where posters such as Doc and me should just quit and turn this forum over to the experts like B_Boomer_54?
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Don't be silly....that's what he wants. Still don't get his comment. Still, don't care.. . wrote:Maybe the time has come where posters such as Doc and me should just quit and turn this forum over to the experts like B_Boomer_54?
Non-productive post.
Stay the course!
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
No expertise required Cat. The Ontario taxpayers have been screwed over plain and simple.
"Doctor" Mazza and his cronies got greedy, and hopefully will pay for it (although not likely).
"Doctor" Mazza and his cronies got greedy, and hopefully will pay for it (although not likely).
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
"Doctor" Mazza is a disgrace to the title. Even Al Capone never stole from the "people". This guy should see the inside of a crowbar hotel, with Bubba as a roommate! If this happened in Texas.......Canoehead wrote:No expertise required Cat. The Ontario taxpayers have been screwed over plain and simple.
"Doctor" Mazza and his cronies got greedy, and hopefully will pay for it (although not likely).
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
The Ontario Government should rip up the contract - seize the aircraft and assets - and start over.
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Under what law can the Ontario Government seize assets from a private company? And where can I get one of them Air Canada models? I'm kinda confused on that comment but what the heck, I'll take an Air Canada model if someones got one!
On second thought...
- 1012ac.jpg (59.52 KiB) Viewed 3009 times
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TeePeeCreeper
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1175
- Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:25 pm
- Location: in the bush
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Don't care... Love those legs! I gatta fly AC more often... I've obviously been missing out! The EK girls are lovely but have been lacking....FL280 wrote:Under what law can the Ontario Government seize assets from a private company? And where can I get one of them Air Canada models? I'm kinda confused on that comment but what the heck, I'll take an Air Canada model if someones got one!
On second thought...
TPC (loves curved trolley dollies)
PS: Love and Respect the -12, but would rather be in a 200/350... As some have said... Seemed all was well, then "bang" Ornge came onto the scene overnight... Qui Bono?
Re: Ornge-The truth is emerging (finally)
Shit I'd rather be in something with two fans as well but it wasn't my choice to buy em!
