What is a pilot really worth?

[Cat Driver]

I take no offense at your comments Frosty, you are correct that things have changed over the decades and many companies look for higher education levels than were required when I started.

However I do not feel I am stuck in the dark ages because my formal schooling did not go beyond grade eight.

Over the decades I became more or less self educated because I could read and write.

As to how modern my thinking and knowledge level is.....well I hold many licenses in several different countries and flew and worked for some of the biggest names in Aviation......even Airbus never asked me to show any proof of education but they were one of my employers and the last time I looked the Airbus fly by wire technology is still considered modern.

So we are back to square one on this subject.....Yup....some companies require relatively high education documents......however that does not change the fact that one can become a top notch safe pilot and capable of flying anything out there without having those education documents.

Once again I encourage all young pilots to get as much formal education as you can........but ....being a top notch pilot can be accomplished without it.

In fact if you look at some of the more recent accidents one wonders how more than one educated pilot in the same airplane could be so incompetent as to allow an airplane to fly them into eternity.

The real issue here is not what a pilot thinks they are worth...the issue is what can they demand and get paid.

When I retired I was able to ask for and get paid a thousand dollars a day for my services as a pilot.

I may not have been the highest paid pilot in the industry but I was not the lowest paid either.

[BTyyj]

However I do not feel I am stuck in the dark ages because my formal schooling did not go beyond grade eight.

Over the decades I became more or less self educated because I could read and write.

Sorry, I didn't wish for my post to sound like you were stuck in the dark ages. It was more to point out that like wage inflation which has occurred over the years, a sort of education inflation has occurred as well. I know back in the 40s and 50s, having a high school diploma was quite an achievement.

Something you should add to your requirements is a level of intelligence and common sense. Obviously you must have had a fair deal of that, saying you self educated yourself to become a pilot with only a grade 8 education. Although I would consider myself somewhat intelligent, I don't think I would have been able to do what you were able to accomplish, without further education. The Air France pilots where probably both highly educated, but when it came down to it, their intelligence and common sense wasn't enough to get them out of a stall within 30 000 feet.

I think that people, myself included, as illustrated in my earlier posts, relate intelligence to education. This simply isn't always the case, however, it will always be generally accepted that those with higher education are smarter. Sure if you're a bright person, basic reading and math skills can get you far. Heck, there are high school dropouts who are now doctors. The fact of the matter is that I don't think you, like many other pilots, give yourself enough credit, which can then be translated into a negative towards the profession. Telling people outside the industry that only a grade 6 education is required to become a pilots won't impress upon anybody the difficulty of the profession, and thus no one will want to pay pilots more.

[Cat Driver]

Frosty you and I really are not that far apart in our general thoughts about flying.

Where we differ is you think one needs to be highly educated to be a successful pilot, you are over stating the difficulty in being one.....period.....it is not all that difficult.

I am far from negative in my opinion of aviation ........but ......the way it is heading I would not advise my grandchildren to choose it as an occupation.

[Lost Lake]

Maybe instead of eduction level, they should be asking for Mensa scores. Just because you had the opportunity/money/location to attend higher education doesn't mean you are smarter. I know a lot of people who, as a former boss of mine called them, are educated fools.

[robertsailor1]

There are street smarts and then there is education in our school systems and they are not the same. I advertise from time to time for junior postions and I get an average of 150-200 resumes and 98% of them are university educated. These days most of these highly educated young people don't even have basic smarts. Yes they can memorize whatever they read and regurgitate it on command but you can't memorize common sense. Most of the brightest and richest people in North America do not have a university education but are they ever smart.

[The De-Icer]

Many other professions, like those mentioned above, have some sort of internship period then write some sort of exam to get accreditation. Why not do this with the ATPL?

If you are able to (brain capacity), check the requirements for an ATPL in Canada. Hint: You will find it in CARs, and there will probably be an "associated standard". I think you will be surprised by the fact that:

1. You DO in fact need experience to qualify for an ATPL (your idea of an internship)

And 2. There is an exam required to get "accreditation". I will give you another little tid bit of information. There is actually TWO, yup 2, exams that you need to write.

So Frosty, pretty much what I am saying is that before you come in here and knock down pilots, calling us "commodities", and telling us we have a "market value" like a piece of chicken at Safeway, go learn a bit about what you are spewing.

As for all of us pilots trying to make a fair living for working our asses of to get where we are going/have gotten - Keep up the good work!

The De-Icer

[Colonel Sanders]

De-Icer: you would probably understand a lot more of what goes on around you - and be a lot less angry - if you took some basic courses in economics, finance, marketing and accounting.

You might not be aware of it - or perhaps even deny it - but you work for a company which must operate in accordance with the fundamental economic principles that govern every other kind of business activity in the world. I'm afraid there is nothing special about aviation, or pilots, that exempts them.

I find these discussions extremely peculiar. It's as if I've wandered into a room where people are arguing whether or not 2+2=4 is in fact true, or fair.

[godsrcrazy]

I really do not understand whey people think you need a college degree to fly. I have flown along side some of the most under educated people in the country, these individuals have the best hands and feet and decision-making capability you have ever seen. I have witnessed them landing on 400’ eskers repeatedly in the same spot to the point that after every 3rd or 4th landing you would have to go shovel gravel into were their mains hit to fill in the hole. These same individuals could talk a customer in or out of anything all while the customer had a huge smile on their faces. I could go on and on about how they could look at a weather chart and out predict (forecast) most paid professional weather people in Canada. All this with limited education.

Pilots should be paid for what they are worth and their ability to fly and make decisions. Just because you have a college degree or a high IQ and you can fly a 737 back and forth across Canada on a daily basis, while in controlled airspace with all the nav aids available in the southern part of the country landing on 8 and 10,000 foot strips does not make you a great pilot. I could go on and on some will get my point and others will not.

[Colonel Sanders]

I really do not understand why people think you need a college degree to fly

Me neither. Do you go to University to learn how to weld, or operate a bulldozer or a crane? Of course not. Pilots are heavy equipment operators.

Pilots should be paid for what they are worth

Yes! (jumping up and down, excited) And this is determined by the supply of pilots, and the demand for pilots. When pilots are scarce in respect to the demand for pilots, pilot wages increase. When pilots are plentiful in respect to the demand for pilots, pilot wages decrease.

Are we going to start to argue again about whether 2+2=4 ? Shall we all go to the Mad Hatter's Tea Party?

[BTyyj]

Where we differ is you think one needs to be highly educated to be a successful pilot, you are over stating the difficulty in being one.....period.....it is not all that difficult.

Cat Driver, I don't think we differ in our thinking at all; I don't believe someone needs to be highly educated to be a successful pilot. However, I do believe that in future years, post-secondary education will be beneficial for applying to jobs in this industry. I also think that if pilots were to upgrade their education, they would be viewed as a more valued profession by the general public, which would certainly help the cause. Sure it's not necessary, but other professions have made it necessary where it truly is not. The result is less persons entering that field, making more of a demand than a supply, and thus raising salaries.

I believe that you might overestimate the difficulty of many other professions. Very few jobs require the training and experience as that of a pilot to make a decent salary. Most people sleep in their own beds at night, and get to spend every evening with their families. Yes, they probably went through a challenging degree, but afterwards they probably got a number of great job offers. For example, anesthesiologists go through an extremely challenging college program. Once completed though, they are practically guaranteed a job in which all they have to is calculate the correct amount of anesthetic, apply it, monitor vitals throughout the surgery, then do the same thing with the next patient. The is a very repetitive action, and after a while I am sure it becomes less and less challenging. At the end of the day, they are still able to bring home in excess of $300 000 per year.

It seems like many people in aviation or under the impression that for a job to be difficult or to be called a profession, it needs to always be challenging and can never be repetitive. In fact, almost all jobs out there are repetitive in some way or another, and thus aren't always challenging. If anyone doesn't believe me, please name a profession in which 80%+ of the time they're at the job, it is challenging. The only one I can think of is some sort of research position.

If you are able to (brain capacity)

In fact I do have the brain capacity, and I am well aware of the ATPL requirements. However, from what I understand and please correct me if I am wrong, but the ATPL doesn't truly weed out pilots the way other professional examinations do. For example, my cousin took three tries to pass his chartered accountant exam, after completing a four year degree and three years of internships. If had failed one more time, he wouldn't have been able to become a CA. I would argue that the ATPL exam isn't anywhere near as difficult. Again, please correct me if I am wrong on this fact.

As for me knocking down pilots, if you looked back at my past comments, I am actually doing quite the opposite. Sure, maybe the word "commodity" isn't the best for this case, but the function is the same, and I am not going to ignore the basic economics of supply and demand. I am a huge proponent of the fact that pilots should be paid substantially more, however, they will always be undervalued if the supply is always higher than the demand. My argument is that the piloting community should artificially limit the number of pilots coming into the industry, thus making the demand higher than the supply, which in turn will raise pilot's wages. That's why I suggested making a more challenging ATPL exam or something of the same sort.

[Nark]

Apparently my words have fallen on deaf ears.

My company cannot find pilots to fill the seats. (supply)
They have increased FO pay across a 7 year stretch to entice applicants (demand)
In addition to offering ATP's to qualified FOs as they rotate through the sim.

This is a no better example of supply and demand.
It has nothing to do with our union trying negotiate after 5 years without a contract. ( the guild/cartel/college you speak of.)