AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

[Johnny767]

For any of us to sit at a keyboard and try and predict a Seniority Integration, is a waste of bandwidth. Having been through more than my share, Arbitrators have been known to blind side you. The AC list is definitely NOT DOH, even though the last merger was 20 years ago. There are still plenty of discounted (some severely) ex-Canadi>n Pilots. On the "likes to likes" argument the Canadi>n/AC merger had far more in common than AC/Transat.

To take the number one Transat Pilot and make him (or her) a T7 or 87 Captain would be close to a 100% pay raise (pre-covid.) Not sure who would think that is remotely fair? My W.A.G. is a ratio and if I was the Arbitrator put the number one Transat Pilot somewhere with the junior Rouge 767 Captain.

That is "likes with likes," still a substantial pay raise for the Transat Pilot.

Oh....Rudder, the CRA Pilots never brought DOH for seniority, only pass travel.

Cheers

[TFTMB heavy]

For any of us to sit at a keyboard and try and predict a Seniority Integration, is a waste of bandwidth. Having been through more than my share, Arbitrators have been known to blind side you. The AC list is definitely NOT DOH, even though the last merger was 20 years ago. There are still plenty of discounted (some severely) ex-Canadi>n Pilots. On the "likes to likes" argument the Canadi>n/AC merger had far more in common than AC/Transat.

To take the number one Transat Pilot and make him (or her) a T7 or 87 Captain would be close to a 100% pay raise (pre-covid.) Not sure who would think that is remotely fair? My W.A.G. is a ratio and if I was the Arbitrator put the number one Transat Pilot somewhere with the junior Rouge 767 Captain.

That is "likes with likes," still a substantial pay raise for the Transat Pilot.

Oh....Rudder, the CRA Pilots never brought DOH for seniority, only pass travel.

Cheers

TS widebody rate at the top of the scale is $242 right now, not exactly the increase you are suggesting to go to a 777 or 787. I'm not saying the number 1 from TS needs to go 777 or 787 but your suggestion to put a pilot with 30 years at TS with the jr Rouge Captains is not reasonable.

I do agree this will not get resolved on Avcanada.

[Johnny767]

Thanks for setting the record straight. I was told top pay was around 200K/year. Assuming you are using hourly rate, that makes the T7 roughly a 70% pay raise.

Rough is the key word!

In Arbitrator speak, that is a "Windfall Gain." Still think that puts you (financially) in with the Rouge 767 seniority band.

Best of luck to all of us and Happy Thanksgiving.

[TFTMB heavy]

Thanks for setting the record straight. I was told top pay was around 200K/year. Assuming you are using hourly rate, that makes the T7 roughly a 70% pay raise.

Rough is the key word!

In Arbitrator speak, that is a "Windfall Gain." Still think that puts you (financially) in with the Rouge 767 seniority band.

Best of luck to all of us and Happy Thanksgiving.

It's 232k annually at TS. So even if a top scale 777 pilot flew all night hours he ends up at 288k by my math, not a 70% increase, more like 25% range. Half day half night you're in the 18% range.

Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

[Dry Guy]

Lol even the junior WBCA's are sweating

[Latitude]

Well I HIGHLY doubt ONEX would be looking to touch anything airline related with a 100 foot pole. The made a huge mistake with the WJ purchase and will not make a bigger mistake again. I think ONEX and the board are looking deeply on how to unload WJ with losing the least amount of money. After this pandemic there will be no investment in Aviation for a period of 5-10 years.

I think Onex purchasing Transat would help them compete against AC and develop new markets since Transat is strong where WS isnt (flights out of YUL, YQB, transatlantic flights). 200m$ for Onex is pocket change and that would boost WS no doubt about it. CR knows it and I'm sure they wont let Onex purchase Transat if they make an offer... interesting months ahead.

[flyinhigh]

Will not be DOH, Will not be bottom of the list.

It will be a form of ratio, which will still need to be determined. If we can all agree on that, this will be much less painful

[tsgas]

The heading should be changed to " Air Canada and Transat announce Decreased Purchase Price to $ 5 per share ".

[altiplano]

Will not be DOH, Will not be bottom of the list.

It will be a form of ratio, which will still need to be determined. If we can all agree on that, this will be much less painful

That is what it will be. Starting point will have to be determined, I have no doubt TS will want top of the list start point, AC will probably want a wage comparable start point. The arbitrator will apply a few corrections, find somewhere in between and everyone will say they got screwed... a few fences/freezes for a period of time...

But let's see the deal go through first. I wonder if Group Mach is still out there? 6$ is a steal from what they had in mind before...

[tsgas]

$6.00 isn't a steal at all . If it was such a great price the stock market would reflect it.

[Fanblade]

I think the single most important piece of information we just learned is being overlooked.

AC has spoken clearly on their intentions. Something we have been waiting for. They could have walked. They didn’t. They wanted a better price of course, but they still want the acquisition.

The pandemic has not changed AC’s desire to purchase Transat.

[aerodude]

I think the single most important piece of information we just learned is being overlooked.

AC has spoken clearly on their intentions. Something we have been waiting for. They could have walked. They didn’t. They wanted a better price of course, but they still want the acquisition.

The pandemic has not changed AC’s desire to purchase Transat.

The desire has not changed but I can guarantee AC will walk away if another firm offers 6$/share or higher. It is a real possibility.

[telex]

I think the single most important piece of information we just learned is being overlooked.

AC has spoken clearly on their intentions. Something we have been waiting for. They could have walked. They didn’t. They wanted a better price of course, but they still want the acquisition.

The pandemic has not changed AC’s desire to purchase Transat.

The desire has not changed but I can guarantee AC will walk away if another firm offers 6$/share or higher. It is a real possibility.

So you are guaranteeing a possibility?

[Daniel Cooper]

Does anyone know the rough breakdown of how many pilots Transat has based each in Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver?

[aerodude]

So you are guaranteeing a possibility?

The probability of someone bidding for TRZ is there, the guarantee is AC walking away if that probability occurs. There is a real political scenario where a Quebec based firm comes to the rescue and bids.

I’ve always said this transaction was over priced with this crisis. This was expected.

Still 2 months away from shareholder vote, anything can happen boys and girls, specially in 2020!

[milhouse]

So you are guaranteeing a possibility?

The probability of someone bidding for TRZ is there, the guarantee is AC walking away if that probability occurs. There is a real political scenario where a Quebec based firm bids.

I’ve always said this transaction was over priced with this crisis. This was expected.

Or they are just using the same strategy they used the first time around, offer the lowest possible price as a starting point, and then raise it if they have to. No point in paying more than you need to. I seriously doubt 5 bucks is their max ceiling.

[aerodude]

Or they are just using the same strategy they used the first time around, offer the lowest possible price as a starting point, and then raise it if they have to. No point in paying more than you need to. I seriously doubt 5 bucks is their max ceiling.

Maybe, but the CEO has a fiduciary responsibility towards AC shareholders.

The acquisition before the crisis was for the brand and the Atlantic market. The Atlantic market is gone, they are just paying for the brand now. Don’t get me wrong, TRZ is an amazing tour operator but that brand is only worth so much.

[FL320]

Forget Groupe Mach...they’re losing tons of money with the non renewal of rents downtown Montreal.
Eustache wants to sell to AC only and; AC want Transat.

[aerodude]

Forget Groupe Mach...they’re losing tons of money with the non renewal of rents downtown Montreal.
Eustache wants to sell to AC only and; AC want Transat.

Of course, but shareholders have the voting power, they will call the shots.

[FL320]

.

[Chooch918Heavy]

So you are guaranteeing a possibility?

The probability of someone bidding for TRZ is there, the guarantee is AC walking away if that probability occurs. There is a real political scenario where a Quebec based firm comes to the rescue and bids.

I’ve always said this transaction was over priced with this crisis. This was expected.

Still 2 months away from shareholder vote, anything can happen boys and girls, specially in 2020!

Air Canada is a Quebec based company.

[planebored]

Will not be DOH, Will not be bottom of the list.

It will be a form of ratio, which will still need to be determined. If we can all agree on that, this will be much less painful

That is what it will be. Starting point will have to be determined, I have no doubt TS will want top of the list start point, AC will probably want a wage comparable start point. The arbitrator will apply a few corrections, find somewhere in between and everyone will say they got screwed... a few fences/freezes for a period of time...

But let's see the deal go through first. I wonder if Group Mach is still out there? 6$ is a steal from what they had in mind before...

Can't wait to see people who were my FO's at Jazz, and bailed the AC brand for TS end up being my Captains!

Oh joy.

[GATRKGA]

Will not be DOH, Will not be bottom of the list.

It will be a form of ratio, which will still need to be determined. If we can all agree on that, this will be much less painful

That is what it will be. Starting point will have to be determined, I have no doubt TS will want top of the list start point, AC will probably want a wage comparable start point. The arbitrator will apply a few corrections, find somewhere in between and everyone will say they got screwed... a few fences/freezes for a period of time...

But let's see the deal go through first. I wonder if Group Mach is still out there? 6$ is a steal from what they had in mind before...

Can't wait to see people who were my FO's at Jazz, and bailed the AC brand for TS end up being my Captains!

Oh joy.

There's your first problem. You decided to be loyal to an outfit that doesn't actually award loyalty, and you're upset that people who saw that before you and bailed for greener pastures, may not only be potentially superior to you, but they also got the fun ride of living the life in a vacation airline to boot. I can understand the envy.

You'll learn eventually that loyalty is a two way street, not the one way let-me-fist-you-endlessly approach that AC is so notoriously famous for doing to its employees and express constituents indirectly.

Had this been a faithful saga about Loyalty, you'd gone to Jazz, with DOH, and this wouldn't even be a discussion at this point. But then again, why should a kid who went to Seneca 2 years back and was flowed through Jazz to AC, be sitting left seat to a TS 330 Captain of 20 years? There's that discussion too if you want to open up the real sentiment about what's wrong with our industry. Then you have the FL280's that think AC pilot's are king and should just be able to flow to Nasa if they so believe. It's moments like this, where it's hard to feel sorry for that MOA you guys just passed. You did it to yourselves because of a short-sighted approach regarding layoffs. Now you've opened up the can of worms, and I'd be hardpressed if I didn't believe CR wants to close the deal asap so that the dealings of the new scope can be put into full force. For the COLLECTIVE group's sake, I hope I am wrong, but nothing surprises me with that man. And what can you do about it? Grieve it I guess. You know the TS pilot's will happily accept a few tweaks to their recent passed TA to basically be a Rouge contract.

On the other hand, it is nice to see some reasonable sentiment by a few AC guys. Realistically, we all know the final outcome will be that no one will be happy and you'll have some TS and AC fanboys that will be offended by the merger even if you gave them the world.

Ultimately 700 pilot's with the impeding fatigue rules around the corner, will be a fart in a hurricane when you look back in 30 years and all this shit has blown over.

Good Luck Everyone.

[planebored]

You make good points.

I learned loyalty doesn't matter that much a few years ago. We're all just a number to the companies we work for.

It is what it is, but you are right in a decade we won't really remember 700 pilots that got integrated.

[GATRKGA]

You make good points.

I learned loyalty doesn't matter that much a few years ago. We're all just a number to the companies we work for.

It is what it is, but you are right in a decade we won't really remember 700 pilots that got integrated.

That's it man. Just put the war trumpets down and let's get through this shit. Everyone has families and liabilities entangled in this mess. Especially if your seniority number at AC starts with a 3 or lower and 4 or lower at TS.