Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by North Shore »

plhought wrote:
5x5 wrote:...I am amazed that this discussion is still ongoing...
photofly wrote:The removal from duty is sensible now the matter is public to avoid whispers among passengers about is this that pilot or FA.
You should remind your co-workers (I am assuming here you work for 'em...sorry if you don't) the above. I overheard two FA's talking about it in YVR last night. They basically identified the guy (first name only) with a host of detail about his personal & professional life. Of course it's rude eavesdropping on my part...but come on - your employee group should be smarter than that. That's assuming anything they were saying was true - which could be absolute BS.
Hmm, with gossip flying around like that, it's not going to be long before Captain X's name is made public before it should be...


Someone earlier mentioned that the complainant should have been fired for insubordination - I disagree: if the profane comment was in reply to a job-related request, "Smith - your turn on the snack trolley " " Go f@ck yourself, Jones, you do it!" and that was an ongoing pattern, then fair enough, time to seek new employment. However, the insubordination ( by the account given) seems to have resulted from frustration over a slow process around a fairly serious event, and thus, while regrettable, is understandable/excusable.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by boeingboy »

All of you crying away wanting proof this was not handled properly need only look at one thing.....The open police file.

I'm not saying pilot M did anything wrong. In fact - maybe the FA made the whole thing up because she was jealous the pilot was dating her best friend. At this point it doesn't really matter. If he did was is alleged then he should fry but right now that's beside the point.

Facts are - a crime in violation of the criminal code was allegedly committed and the police opened a file. Pilot M is not flying to Hawaii as he would be arrested by authorities. (presumably to be questioned) The file is still open - meaning it has not been concluded to the satisfaction of law enforcement.

Now if you were the company - would you not want to hear what the police (who are the only ones allowed to investigate a clear the matter) had to say? Maybe it would change your view of your own internal findings....perhaps helping you improve your own procedures. They owe it to there employees to watch out for their health and safety. Especially since it was company related business and happened to 2 employees.

If you were Pilot M - you owe it to yourself to clear your own name. How would you ever get another job? Most companies require employees to have no travel restrictions. I don't think anyone would hire you if you said "Well I cant go to Hawaii because I would be arrested for something that was never cleared up". What about retirement and your wife wants a nice Hawaiian vacation or your kid gets married there? Oh have to skip that. Or just the fact you've been accused of something somewhere and it's unresolved.

Then there is the FA - If she's lying and made the whole thing up.....I'm sure the company and the pilot would want that known so they could nail her butt to the wall with lawsuits.

The fact the police file is still open and no-one has bothered to have it closed in 6 years are major red flags that something is possibly being covered up.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by True North »

Stumper wrote:
True North wrote:
Stumper wrote:Lol. We also know that if they had their time back it would be handled very differently..
Really? How do we know that?
Educated guess. Unless you think this whole affair was Greggs plan all along?

Lots of big company's out there with lots of big workforce's.. Still this is an extremely rare occurance for a situation like this to deteriorate to this level. Obviously WestJet is doing something different on this file then the rest of the pack. If I were paying their big management salaries I would be pissed right now
Okay, you're guessing and that's fine. You originally said you "know", which makes it a statement of fact - which it isn't.

But again, now you say "Obviously WestJet is doing something different..." I don't see anything "obvious" so educate me again.

Or are you guessing again?
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Big Bird Anonymous »

True North wrote:
Big Bird Anonymous wrote:Westjet foments the culture of immunity to social values and ethics...where have you been living-Africa?
Um, what?

Um, yup...saw it live and in color...westjet is 100% vicariously responsible for the actions of it's employees and not to have a handle on this and many other similar occurrences proves they are out of operational control...better buckle up
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by True North »

Big Bird Anonymous wrote:
True North wrote:
Big Bird Anonymous wrote:Westjet foments the culture of immunity to social values and ethics...where have you been living-Africa?
Um, what?

Um, yup...saw it live and in color...westjet is 100% vicariously responsible for the actions of it's employees and not to have a handle on this and many other similar occurrences proves they are out of operational control...better buckle up
For the benefit of those of us that don't have your insight do please explain, in plain english, what the hell you're talking about.

Edited to add; while you're at it, please explain how an individual or company can be "vicariously responsible".

Then stick with words you actually know the meaning of.
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Last edited by True North on Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

boeingboy wrote:If you were Pilot M - you owe it to yourself to clear your own name. How would you ever get another job? Most companies require employees to have no travel restrictions.
Oh my goodness - listen to yourself!

I guarantee that if you are accused of a crime in a foreign country thousands of miles away the very last thing you're going to do is buy yourself a $2000 airfare and head out to "clear your name". Regardless of guilt or innocence. You've been watching far too many movies.


Meanwhile, the statute of limitations in Hawaii means he can't be charged more than six years after the alleged assault.

And he doesn't have a travel restriction. He's free to fly where he likes.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Stumper »

Okay, you're guessing and that's fine. You originally said you "know", which makes it a statement of fact - which it isn't.

But again, now you say "Obviously WestJet is doing something different..." I don't see anything "obvious" so educate me again.

Or are you guessing again?
I apologize if my communication style is too complicated for you true north. I will try to take it slower so you can follow along..

Is it your opinion that that the leadership and shareholders of WestJet are thrilled with the lawsuit, media coverage and brand destruction they are currently undergoing due to how this situation was handled and that if they had a second chance they wouldn't change a thing?
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by True North »

Stumper wrote:
Okay, you're guessing and that's fine. You originally said you "know", which makes it a statement of fact - which it isn't.

But again, now you say "Obviously WestJet is doing something different..." I don't see anything "obvious" so educate me again.

Or are you guessing again?
I apologize if my communication style is too complicated for you true north. I will try to take it slower so you can follow along..

Is it your opinion that that the leadership and shareholders of WestJet are thrilled with the lawsuit, media coverage and brand destruction they are currently undergoing due to how this situation was handled and that if they had a second chance they wouldn't change a thing?
Okay Stumper, I think you're reading the words but they don't seem to be exciting the correct part of your brain. Let me dumb it way down for you. We (I) am talking about FACTS. I said it loud because you're obviously unclear on the concept and maybe that will jumpstart the process. So here is a FACT; I don't know, and neither do you know how "this situation was handled". The alleged incident may have been handled absolutely in accordance with the law and WestJet company policy, or it may not. Unlike you, I will withhold my opinion until I have the facts.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by altiplano »

True North wrote:I don't know, and neither do you know how "this situation was handled".
Jesus.

I can't believe you guys can't see that something handled poorly.

Take a freaking look at it. If you think that Westjet is right on the matter, fine, but they could have done better or we wouldn't be here with reports of multiple sexual assaults, lawsuits and police investigations.

The situation never should have come to this. That was in their control.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Stumper »

True North wrote:
Stumper wrote:
Okay, you're guessing and that's fine. You originally said you "know", which makes it a statement of fact - which it isn't.

But again, now you say "Obviously WestJet is doing something different..." I don't see anything "obvious" so educate me again.

Or are you guessing again?
I apologize if my communication style is too complicated for you true north. I will try to take it slower so you can follow along..

Is it your opinion that that the leadership and shareholders of WestJet are thrilled with the lawsuit, media coverage and brand destruction they are currently undergoing due to how this situation was handled and that if they had a second chance they wouldn't change a thing?
Okay Stumper, I think you're reading the words but they don't seem to be exciting the correct part of your brain. Let me dumb it way down for you. We (I) am talking about FACTS. I said it loud because you're obviously unclear on the concept and maybe that will jumpstart the process. So here is a FACT; I don't know, and neither do you know how "this situation was handled". The alleged incident may have been handled absolutely in accordance with the law and WestJet company policy, or it may not. Unlike you, I will withhold my opinion until I have the facts.
Lol. You're reeling in the wrong line there true north.

I have at no point said that WestJet has done anything out of accordance with law or their own policy's. What I do accert is that the outcome of their handling of this file has been an epic fail that has and is causing massive harm to both the companies internal and external brand.

It's not against the rules of hockey to score on your own net, but it sure doesn't help you win games.. When I see that happen to a team I take as self evident that:
1: It wasn't part of the teams game plan going in.
2: If they had their time back they would have played the puck differently and going forward measures will be put in place to prevent reuccurance.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Stumper »

altiplano wrote:
True North wrote:I don't know, and neither do you know how "this situation was handled".
Jesus.

I can't believe you guys can't see that something handled poorly.

Take a freaking look at it. If you think that Westjet is right on the matter, fine, but they could have done better or we wouldn't be here with reports of multiple sexual assaults, lawsuits and police investigations.

The situation never should have come to this. That was in their control.
Exactly. Well said.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by boeingboy »

Oh my goodness - listen to yourself!

I guarantee that if you are accused of a crime in a foreign country thousands of miles away the very last thing you're going to do is buy yourself a $2000 airfare and head out to "clear your name". Regardless of guilt or innocence. You've been watching far too many movies.
And you are a complete moron.

You dont need to spend any money to travel, cause you dont need travel there to clear up anything. Go get a lawyer, tell them whats up and they can do it from here. It's not a foreign country thousands of miles away. Its a state within the USA which is right next door. If it was a 2 bit banana republic where corruption is rampant.....i probably would not go. If I was accused of something I didn't do in the USA - you bet I would!
Meanwhile, the statute of limitations in Hawaii means he can't be charged more than six years after the alleged assault.
Really? I dont know where you get your info......but he most certainly can be charged should there be sufficient evidence.
§701-108 Time limitations. (1) A prosecution for murder, murder in the first and second degrees, attempted murder, and attempted murder in the first and second degrees, criminal conspiracy to commit murder in any degree, criminal solicitation to commit murder in any degree, sexual assault in the first and second degrees, and continuous sexual assault of a minor under the age of fourteen years may be commenced at any time.
Nothing herein contained shall bar any prosecution against any person who flees from justice, or absents himself from the State, or so secretes himself that he cannot be found by the officers of the law, so that process cannot be served upon him.
Your not a pilot so you said.....I certainly hope your not pilot M's lawyer. :roll:
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

You're correct - I was wrong about the six year limit. The description of what is alleged to have occured meets the bar only for sexual assault in the fourth degree, in Hawaii. That means it's not even a felony, and as a misdemeanour it actually timed out after two years - back in 2012.

The alleged offence occured six years ago, between two Canadian citizens, who were in Hawaii for just 24 hours, and both of whom had returned to Canada by the time any law enforcement agency (let alone Hawaii Police) were informed so HPD never had a chance to interview the alleged victim. Nobody in Hawaii ever gave a damn about this; they were never going to expend any resources investigating,and they're certainly not going to now.

I didn't say I'm not a pilot, but if I were advising M he'd getter better advice from me than from you.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by altiplano »

photofly wrote:You're correct - I was wrong about the six year limit. The description of what is alleged to have occured meets the bar only for sexual assault in the fourth degree, in Hawaii. That means it's not even a felony, and as a misdemeanour it actually timed out after two years - back in 2012.

The alleged offence occured six years ago, between two Canadian citizens, who were in Hawaii for just 24 hours, and both of whom had returned to Canada by the time any law enforcement agency (let alone Hawaii Police) were informed so HPD never had a chance to interview the alleged victim. Nobody in Hawaii ever gave a damn about this; they were never going to expend any resources investigating,and they're certainly not going to now.

I didn't say I'm not a pilot, but if I were advising M he'd getter better advice from me than from you.
Your logic trying to minimise the seriousness of the offence is flawed.

How do you know "nobody in Hawaii ever gave a damn about this"?
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

Because they didn't interview the complainant or issue an arrest warrant for the pilot. I don't believe it's even possible to attempt extradition for a misdemeanour.

As for the seriousness of the offence: that's not oprn for me to question one way or the other. The maximum penalty for a 4th degree sexual assault in Hawaii is 12 months in prison and or a $2000 fine. You can find other crimes with the same level of punishment and draw your own conclusions, however you feel.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by altiplano »

photofly wrote:it's not even a felony, and as a misdemeanour
It's a good thing you aren't his lawyer...
(1) A person commits the offense of unlawful imprisonment in the first degree if the person knowingly restrains another person under circumstances which expose the person to the risk of serious bodily injury.

(2) Unlawful imprisonment in the first degree is a class C felony.

--------------------------

(1) A person commits the offense of kidnapping if the person intentionally or knowingly restrains another person with intent to:
....

(d) Inflict bodily injury upon that person or subject that person to a sexual offense;

(2) Except as provided in subsection (3), kidnapping is a class A felony.
Just because she fought and got away and wasn't penetrated doesn't mean a felony wasn't committed as the allegation stands.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

I'm content to stand by my comments based on the inaction of the Hawaii PD. They would know if this rose to the level of kidnapping of unlawful imprisonment, and whether there was any prospect of a conviction or not.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by altiplano »

What do you think they would have done if the accused returned to Hawaii?

Do you really think it's not a crime just because they couldn't investigate it?
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by photofly »

I didn't say that the allegations, if true, do not constitute a crime, and I didn't say the Hawaii Police couldn't investigate.

In fact they certainly could have investigated: they could, for instance, have travelled to Canada to interview the alleged victim and the other people involved, and if the evidence was strong enough and the offence serious enough they could have sought the alleged assailant's extradition to face charges. It's not like either Ms Lewis or M would have been difficult to track down. If they had done either I feel fairly sure it would have been mentioned in Ms. Lewis's Statement of Claim, as it would have strengthened her argument.

I don't know he hasn't retuned to Hawaii; I don't know - but suspect, as a WJ pilot, he has certainly returned to other states in the USA. Without impediment.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by True North »

Stumper wrote:
altiplano wrote:
True North wrote:I don't know, and neither do you know how "this situation was handled".
Jesus.

I can't believe you guys can't see that something handled poorly.

Take a freaking look at it. If you think that Westjet is right on the matter, fine, but they could have done better or we wouldn't be here with reports of multiple sexual assaults, lawsuits and police investigations.

The situation never should have come to this. That was in their control.
Exactly. Well said.
Gawd you guys are thick!

Unlike you, I am not prepared to say this was handled correctly or not. I don't have enough FACTS. All I know is that it wasn't handled to the satisfaction of the complainant - but that means nothing on it's own. The FACT that the incident happened years ago, was resolved, and was not brought forth again until the complainant was fired for something else is more than a little suspicious.

This whole thing is exceedingly unfortunate for the people directly involved, for all the other WestJet employees who go and do their best everyday, and for the corporation. When all the facts are presented and if it is proven that WestJet did not deal with this correctly, then I hope heads roll. When all the facts are presented and if it is proven that WestJet did deal with this correctly, then the complainant should pay. My guess is it will fall somewhere in between but until I have the FACTS, I will not join the rush to judgement.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Stumper »

True North wrote:Gawd you guys are thick!

Unlike you, I am not prepared to say this was handled correctly or not. I don't have enough FACTS. All I know is that it wasn't handled to the satisfaction of the complainant - but that means nothing on it's own. The FACT that the incident happened years ago, was resolved, and was not brought forth again until the complainant was fired for something else is more than a little suspicious.

This whole thing is exceedingly unfortunate for the people directly involved, for all the other WestJet employees who go and do their best everyday, and for the corporation. When all the facts are presented and if it is proven that WestJet did not deal with this correctly, then I hope heads roll. When all the facts are presented and if it is proven that WestJet did deal with this correctly, then the complainant should pay. My guess is it will fall somewhere in between but until I have the FACTS, I will not join the rush to judgement.
Lol you're to much true north! If you weren't real we'd have to make you up just to keep this conversation going..

I'm sure WestJet head office has spent the last few days giving each other high fives and patting each other on the back over a job well done. All policies followed, all boxes checked, nothing to see here. Wouldn't change a thing..

Maybe in the future business schools will use this as a case study of how to effectively deal with internal sexual assault reports in large corporations :rolleyes:
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by True North »

Stumper wrote:
True North wrote:Gawd you guys are thick!

Unlike you, I am not prepared to say this was handled correctly or not. I don't have enough FACTS. All I know is that it wasn't handled to the satisfaction of the complainant - but that means nothing on it's own. The FACT that the incident happened years ago, was resolved, and was not brought forth again until the complainant was fired for something else is more than a little suspicious.

This whole thing is exceedingly unfortunate for the people directly involved, for all the other WestJet employees who go and do their best everyday, and for the corporation. When all the facts are presented and if it is proven that WestJet did not deal with this correctly, then I hope heads roll. When all the facts are presented and if it is proven that WestJet did deal with this correctly, then the complainant should pay. My guess is it will fall somewhere in between but until I have the FACTS, I will not join the rush to judgement.
Lol you're to much true north! If you weren't real we'd have to make you up just to keep this conversation going..

I'm sure WestJet head office has spent the last few days giving each other high fives and patting each other on the back over a job well done. All policies followed, all boxes checked, nothing to see here. Wouldn't change a thing..

Maybe in the future business schools will use this as a case study of how to effectively deal with internal sexual assault reports in large corporations :rolleyes:
Trying to explain something to you is like talking to a stump.

I give up.

Hey, I just connected that with your user name! :smt043
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by Stumper »

True North wrote:
Stumper wrote:Lol. We also know that if they had their time back it would be handled very differently..
Really? How do we know that?
True North wrote:Trying to explain something to you is like talking to a stump.

I give up.
Sounds good true north. Cheers
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by complexintentions »

Perhaps one of the legal geniuses here could explain why the pilot in question is still able to fly to the continental US if he is in such trouble in Hawaii? If he were the alleged perpetrator of an assault in the US, it doesn't matter which state it occurred in - as soon as he hits a border crossing, he's detained.

In other words, he is in no such legal trouble.

So why was he removed from the Hawaii flying? I suspect that WestJet, after conducting their own investigation and concluding neither the pilot nor the company was not in violation of any laws or regulations, simply chose not to roster the pilot to Hawaii to avoid having a flight potentially delayed/stranded while the pilot dealt with what appears to be a specious complaint.

And I label the complaint as "specious" because the US legal authorities apparently do not consider the complaint worthy of further pursuit. We live in a day and age where authorities bend over backwards to prosecute alleged rapists, in fact there have been high-profile cases of hysterical rape charges that were later proven to be completely fabricated. (Google University of Virginia/Rolling Stone if you don't believe me). In other words, if any possible benefit of the doubt can be afforded to a complainant these days to assist pressing charges, it is. Yet the witch hunters on here and elsewhere, egged on by the press, seem quite certain they know better than the prosecutorial department of the police in Hawaii, six years ago. Amazing.

Have to strongly agree with True North: it is odd how the complainant waited for six years and then re-opened her complaint coincident with her firing.
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Re: Westjet cover up: Alleged sexual assaults by pilot

Post by co-joe »

It seems to me there are 2 different issues here. 1. the alleged sexual assault, and 2. how the company deals with allegations of sexual misconduct.

I hate "trial by media", and I'm glad we don't know the names of any pilots in question, and am disappointed that we do know the FA's name. This must be brutal on her and her family.

It remids me of the Bill Cosby, and Ghomeshi cases where the media seems more into burning them down, than waiting for the truth.
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