Air Canada Revises the Terms of its Capacity Purchase Agreement with Chorus Aviation for Regional Flying

[flyingcanuck]

Whether or not you get a vote depends on your status with alpa. Active - you get a vote, Inactive - no vote.

forget that, I'm paying dues and it affects me. Ridiculous to think otherwise. Look at what happened at AC, they directly affected their laid off pilots without a word from them.

[YVR_pushpull12]

Well this has potentially a huge incidence in this case...The active Jazz might be way more inclined to vote yes and be fine with a DOH setup...Add the 600 laidoffs and you will have a completely different cast ballot....
Anybody sharing the same concerns?

I don't think 280 pilots will make much of a dent in a pilot base at jazz with roughly 1500 total. Grand scheme of things this is a small drop in a big pool. I think we all need to get along and realize and accept that things will be tough going for a while longer before things will get better. I wouldn't be surprised if Jazz does negotiate a DOH for the SKV pilots at a staggered rate which I think would be fare to both Jazz and SKV members. For every Sky pilot there are 3 Jazz or something along those lines. The big one the Jazz MEC should be working on is bringing FO pay up to at least be at what the SKV FO pay was in the first roughly 3 years. Captain salary at Jazz and SKV are similar but FO pay is def higher at SKV and thus should be brought over for the Jazz guys and gals. There could be a benefit for Jazz with SKV guys coming so lets all take a breath and think as a group instead of ones own self. Working in a group has always been better than a solo mindset.

Both pilot groups need to be a team not cut each other to bits. Jazz didn't ask for this neither did SKV. Big mothership pulled the rug from everyone just as a 7 Billion bail out was announced. Sucks for everyone.

[scrat1]

Well this has potentially a huge incidence in this case...The active Jazz might be way more inclined to vote yes and be fine with a DOH setup...Add the 600 laidoffs and you will have a completely different cast ballot....
Anybody sharing the same concerns?

I don't think 280 pilots will make much of a dent in a pilot base at jazz with roughly 1500 total. Grand scheme of things this is a small drop in a big pool. I think we all need to get along and realize and accept that things will be tough going for a while longer before things will get better. I wouldn't be surprised if Jazz does negotiate a DOH for the SKV pilots at a staggered rate which I think would be fare to both Jazz and SKV members. For every Sky pilot there are 3 Jazz or something along those lines. The big one the Jazz MEC should be working on is bringing FO pay up to at least be at what the SKV FO pay was in the first roughly 3 years. Captain salary at Jazz and SKV are similar but FO pay is def higher at SKV and thus should be brought over for the Jazz guys and gals. There could be a benefit for Jazz with SKV guys coming so lets all take a breath and think as a group instead of ones own self. Working in a group has always been better than a solo mindset.

Both pilot groups need to be a team not cut each other to bits. Jazz didn't ask for this neither did SKV. Big mothership pulled the rug from everyone just as a 7 Billion bail out was announced. Sucks for everyone.

Really, is that what you think that 280 Sky pilots won't make much of a dent for Jazz pilots base? Let me tell you one think, just to give you an idea YYZ base FO/RJ are 89 altogether, now imagine these 280 SKV coming and taking over all these spots, where one will end up? do you think it is fair for those 89 poor FO's to loose their base and equipment? put yourself in those young pilots shoes.

Think of yourself, imagine you at your company. and now 280 guys being added ahead of you, would you also be thinking "Oh I don't think 280 pilots will make much of a dent in a pilot base"

Think about it

[flyingcanuck]

We keep hearing the same thing over and over and over. Do A and we'll get leverage, do B and we'll get leverage, do C and we'll finally be able to negotiate better conditions. It's not going to happen, they will just make another company or something else to keep us down. These guys keep parroting the same things to us, since it doesn't affect them, and for us to "ride it out". We heard it with GGN but now there's no mainline carrot.

[CanadianPilotQc]

the one thing you forgot to think about in your math, is that those pilots are bringing their airplane with them.

[YVR_pushpull12]

Well this has potentially a huge incidence in this case...The active Jazz might be way more inclined to vote yes and be fine with a DOH setup...Add the 600 laidoffs and you will have a completely different cast ballot....
Anybody sharing the same concerns?

I don't think 280 pilots will make much of a dent in a pilot base at jazz with roughly 1500 total. Grand scheme of things this is a small drop in a big pool. I think we all need to get along and realize and accept that things will be tough going for a while longer before things will get better. I wouldn't be surprised if Jazz does negotiate a DOH for the SKV pilots at a staggered rate which I think would be fare to both Jazz and SKV members. For every Sky pilot there are 3 Jazz or something along those lines. The big one the Jazz MEC should be working on is bringing FO pay up to at least be at what the SKV FO pay was in the first roughly 3 years. Captain salary at Jazz and SKV are similar but FO pay is def higher at SKV and thus should be brought over for the Jazz guys and gals. There could be a benefit for Jazz with SKV guys coming so lets all take a breath and think as a group instead of ones own self. Working in a group has always been better than a solo mindset.

Both pilot groups need to be a team not cut each other to bits. Jazz didn't ask for this neither did SKV. Big mothership pulled the rug from everyone just as a 7 Billion bail out was announced. Sucks for everyone.

Really, is that what you think that 280 Sky pilots won't make much of a dent for Jazz pilots base? Let me tell you one think, just to give you an idea YYZ base FO/RJ are 89 altogether, now imagine these 280 SKV coming and taking over all these spots, where one will end up? do you think it is fair for those 89 poor FO's to loose their base and equipment? put yourself in those young pilots shoes.

Think of yourself, imagine you at your company. and now 280 guys being added ahead of you, would you also be thinking "Oh I don't think 280 pilots will make much of a dent in a pilot base"

Think about it

You need to a take breather. This isn’t a pissing contest. First off most are commuters from out west “BC and Alberta” so easily 80 pilots go to Vancouver Calgary base if they can bid. I’d say another 50% are solid maritimers or Quebecers who will choose Montreal.

To think everyone wants to live in the centre of the universe of Toronto is very misleading. Reality is that if you have been at Jazz or Sky for less then a year and a half you are most likely going to get either downgraded to a different aircraft or base. It’s just what the environment of aviation is right now. This isn’t about who deserves more for either group. Jazz pilots deserve a fair shake just as much as sky and vice versa.

If the mentality is to totally throw any cooperation with the Sky pilots away and put them at bottom of the list for seniority and loose date of hire for Air Canada jobs and also loose the aircraft type flown I assure you ALPA Canada will step in before that happens.

That will never happen though because Jazz pilots as a whole understand the big picture which is unity instead of separation. I’m not here to piss people
off and I’m not here to make enemies. Why can’t we all try to think of things to put forward to the MEC.

-Better pay for FO/Captains
-If DOH is being considered then stager it out 1:4 ratio
-Vouch for better Air Canada flight benefits
-More contributions for RRSP
-Maybe even reconsider opening the Halifax base to allow pilots a better option to affordable housing

This is where Jazz pilots have the upper hand to potentially come out with a bit more meat into the contract if the pilot group as a whole has to loose a bit of seniority.

Heck even keep DOH but no sky pilot can start flying before all Jazz pilots return. There are options that work for everyone. Be patient !

[scrat1]

the one thing you forgot to think about in your math, is that those pilots are bringing their airplane with them.

Au Contraire my dear "CanadianPilotQc", Again put yourself in those guys at the bottom at jazz shoes, two years ago they lost their spot for GGN guys, two years later, they will probably be pushed down even further this time around. How would you feel if you were one of them?

I understand that by your math SKV will be bringing 25 Embraers, great! but in real life when will these aircrafts fly again if they fly? bottom line is, there will be 280 pilots ahead of them, and again those poor FO's will be loosing their base and equipment, perhaps it might be easier for you to say about my "forgotten math" but perhaps you're in better position than those kids are right now, who knows you could be a SK pilot with a relatively good seniority that might be taking their spot/base, so why care about them? (please with all due respect, I am not judging you)

Union isn't for free, they all pay their dues, and a lot by the way, since its not for free, their union should benefit their pilots as well. I truly understand that SR pilots have nothing to do with this, I feel terrible sorry for each one of them, but again it is not fair for the pilots with low seniority at jazz well being pushed down twice in two years.

I can guarantee you that those Embraer won't be flying within the next 6-8 months, please do not count with them just yet.

[Splash]

the one thing you forgot to think about in your math, is that those pilots are bringing their airplane with them.

Au Contraire my dear "CanadianPilotQc", Again put yourself in those guys at the bottom at jazz shoes, two years ago they lost their spot for GGN guys, two years later, they will probably be pushed down even further this time around. How would you feel if you were one of them?

I understand that by your math SKV will be bringing 25 Embraers, great! but in real life when will these aircrafts fly again if they fly? bottom line is, there will be 280 pilots ahead of them, and again those poor FO's will be loosing their base and equipment, perhaps it might be easier for you to say about my "forgotten math" but perhaps you're in better position than those kids are right now, who knows you could be a SK pilot with a relatively good seniority that might be taking their spot/base, so why care about them? (please with all due respect, I am not judging you)

Union isn't for free, they all pay their dues, and a lot by the way, since its not for free, their union should benefit their pilots as well. I truly understand that SR pilots have nothing to do with this, I feel terrible sorry for each one of them, but again it is not fair for the pilots with low seniority at jazz well being pushed down twice in two years.

I can guarantee you that those Embraer won't be flying within the next 6-8 months, please do not count with them just yet.

That is why fencing the Sky Regional pilots on the E75's until the recovery has occurred and the existing Jazz fleet is operational will alleviate a significant amount of the impact. If the E75's are not flying, then the Sky Regional pilots are not flying. The removal of the DH3's was going to happen one way or another, keeping that issue separate helps adds some clarity to where this is all going.

[CanadianPilotQc]

You need to a take breather. This isn’t a pissing contest. First off most are commuters from out west “BC and Alberta” so easily 80 pilots go to Vancouver Calgary base if they can bid. I’d say another 50% are solid maritimers or Quebecers who will choose Montreal.

To think everyone wants to live in the centre of the universe of Toronto is very misleading. Reality is that if you have been at Jazz or Sky for less then a year and a half you are most likely going to get either downgraded to a different aircraft or base. It’s just what the environment of aviation is right now. This isn’t about who deserves more for either group. Jazz pilots deserve a fair shake just as much as sky and vice versa.

If the mentality is to totally throw any cooperation with the Sky pilots away and put them at bottom of the list for seniority and loose date of hire for Air Canada jobs and also loose the aircraft type flown I assure you ALPA Canada will step in before that happens.

That will never happen though because Jazz pilots as a whole understand the big picture which is unity instead of separation. I’m not here to piss people
off and I’m not here to make enemies. Why can’t we all try to think of things to put forward to the MEC.

-Better pay for FO/Captains
-If DOH is being considered then stager it out 1:4 ratio
-Vouch for better Air Canada flight benefits
-More contributions for RRSP
-Maybe even reconsider opening the Halifax base to allow pilots a better option to affordable housing

This is where Jazz pilots have the upper hand to potentially come out with a bit more meat into the contract if the pilot group as a whole has to loose a bit of seniority.

Heck even keep DOH but no sky pilot can start flying before all Jazz pilots return. There are options that work for everyone. Be patient !

this makes sense to me. instead of of thinking about who deserves more or what not, try to get the EXTRA most out of the things to put forward to the MEC. because reality is and unfortunately they are coming, might as well.

[swervin]

The only thing you will see Jazz pilots get out of this deal is possibly an enhanced ERP package for those that are ready to retire. I'll almost gaurantee you there will be no vote from the membership on this deal. The best way to get your opinions known is to contact your LEC rep.

[Kosiw]

Am starting to wonder if the timing of Sky Regional shutting down and Jazz becoming exclusive Express airline for AC will be in line with rumours of forthcoming Federal gov't aid for the airlines, if that happens soon, watch for AC to announce many of those shuttered regional routes to come back, pending this deal....leverage.

[YVR_pushpull12]

Am starting to wonder if the timing of Sky Regional shutting down and Jazz becoming exclusive Express airline for AC will be in line with rumours of forthcoming Federal gov't aid for the airlines, if that happens soon, watch for AC to announce many of those shuttered regional routes to come back, pending this deal....leverage.

100%

Air Canada is chomping at the bit to open everything up. If a bail out is coming expect AC/CHR stock price to move up next week also. If anyone buys now and holds till this time next year you'll be happy with the return. AC is willing to play ball but JT seems he has not wanted to serve the ball back at all.



https://globalnews.ca/news/7675688/air- ... -exchange/

[throwaway123]

The only thing you will see Jazz pilots get out of this deal is possibly an enhanced ERP package for those that are ready to retire. I'll almost gaurantee you there will be no vote from the membership on this deal. The best way to get your opinions known is to contact your LEC rep.

Based on past practices there will 100% be a vote.

[flyer 1492]

What will happen to the D-8/300 pilots over the year as the aircraft are removed from service? Will they be able to bid on ALL types including the EMB?

[sevendigits]

I don't think 280 pilots will make much of a dent in a pilot base at jazz with roughly 1500 total. Grand scheme of things this is a small drop in a big pool. I think we all need to get along and realize and accept that things will be tough going for a while longer before things will get better. I wouldn't be surprised if Jazz does negotiate a DOH for the SKV pilots at a staggered rate which I think would be fare to both Jazz and SKV members. For every Sky pilot there are 3 Jazz or something along those lines. The big one the Jazz MEC should be working on is bringing FO pay up to at least be at what the SKV FO pay was in the first roughly 3 years. Captain salary at Jazz and SKV are similar but FO pay is def higher at SKV and thus should be brought over for the Jazz guys and gals. There could be a benefit for Jazz with SKV guys coming so lets all take a breath and think as a group instead of ones own self. Working in a group has always been better than a solo mindset.

Both pilot groups need to be a team not cut each other to bits. Jazz didn't ask for this neither did SKV. Big mothership pulled the rug from everyone just as a 7 Billion bail out was announced. Sucks for everyone.

Really, is that what you think that 280 Sky pilots won't make much of a dent for Jazz pilots base? Let me tell you one think, just to give you an idea YYZ base FO/RJ are 89 altogether, now imagine these 280 SKV coming and taking over all these spots, where one will end up? do you think it is fair for those 89 poor FO's to loose their base and equipment? put yourself in those young pilots shoes.

Think of yourself, imagine you at your company. and now 280 guys being added ahead of you, would you also be thinking "Oh I don't think 280 pilots will make much of a dent in a pilot base"

Think about it

You need to a take breather. This isn’t a pissing contest. First off most are commuters from out west “BC and Alberta” so easily 80 pilots go to Vancouver Calgary base if they can bid. I’d say another 50% are solid maritimers or Quebecers who will choose Montreal.

To think everyone wants to live in the centre of the universe of Toronto is very misleading. Reality is that if you have been at Jazz or Sky for less then a year and a half you are most likely going to get either downgraded to a different aircraft or base. It’s just what the environment of aviation is right now. This isn’t about who deserves more for either group. Jazz pilots deserve a fair shake just as much as sky and vice versa.

If the mentality is to totally throw any cooperation with the Sky pilots away and put them at bottom of the list for seniority and loose date of hire for Air Canada jobs and also loose the aircraft type flown I assure you ALPA Canada will step in before that happens.

That will never happen though because Jazz pilots as a whole understand the big picture which is unity instead of separation. I’m not here to piss people
off and I’m not here to make enemies. Why can’t we all try to think of things to put forward to the MEC.

-Better pay for FO/Captains
-If DOH is being considered then stager it out 1:4 ratio
-Vouch for better Air Canada flight benefits
-More contributions for RRSP
-Maybe even reconsider opening the Halifax base to allow pilots a better option to affordable housing

This is where Jazz pilots have the upper hand to potentially come out with a bit more meat into the contract if the pilot group as a whole has to loose a bit of seniority.

Heck even keep DOH but no sky pilot can start flying before all Jazz pilots return. There are options that work for everyone. Be patient !

Exactly, better flight benefits! One area that ALPA needs to fight for is our passes and deadheading status. I know that many regional pilots are frustrated with the fact that when they are deadheading they are pushed back to economy like the travelling public. We fly AC passengers just like AC mainline pilots and should be treated accordingly. We should have the same opportunity to deadhead or when (personally) travelling to sit in J class just like AC mainline employees and not be downgraded like cattle. This is discrimination on the part of Air Canada. If all employees are to be treated on the same level we regional pilots should not be treated as second class employees!

[throwaway123]

Not all AC pilots get pos J class on DH's, RPs get pos Y with space available J which is pretty much never available anyways. And none of us get it for pass travel on our C2s unless using a special pass which we have a very limited amount. So don't go saying how we all get space available J on pass travel because that's not true.

FO's only just got it on DH's a few years ago so baby steps. The best I can see Jazz getting is space available upgrades based on a C4 pass during DH's (after ML employees) and that is even reaching. Not that I don't think you guys shouldn't get that, I do, but that it's going to be pretty hard to convince AC to give that away.

[crj_705]

Don’t know how this got side-tracked into a discussion about travel benefits but just as an FYI...when our JAZZ crew scheduling department books our DH’s for company operations or we utilize our business profile for booking a banked DH business class seat, all pilots that were hired prior to 2006 are either PY3/J05 for business travel or C2 for pleasure travel with our YOS as the boarding priority.

[flyingcanuck]

This is why we get shit on. Ohhh shiny J class seats that'll sweeten the deal!

[dhc#]

This is why we get shit on. Ohhh shiny J class seats that'll sweeten the deal!

Waiting for the spin and gaslighting.

Are Jazz juniors about to be ball-gagged and introduced to the GIMP, over seniority.

[47north]

This is why we get shit on. Ohhh shiny J class seats that'll sweeten the deal!

Waiting for the spin and gaslighting.

Are Jazz juniors about to be ball-gagged and introduced to the GIMP, over seniority.

If you are a Jazz pilot, stop stirring the pot and wait until you see a tentative agreement. You have no idea what the negotiations are centred on.

If you’re not a Jazz pilot, mind your own business...

[Stu Pidasso]

How did Jazz (ALPA) ever allow a Biscuit Shooter to deadhead in J over a Pilot? I see it all the time, Jazz Captain and FA in J and the F/O humping it to a middle seat in the back.

Find me ANOTHER AIRLINE on the face of the earth that does that!

[Loon-A-Tic]

How did Jazz (ALPA) ever allow a Biscuit Shooter to deadhead in J over a Pilot? I see it all the time, Jazz Captain and FA in J and the F/O humping it to a middle seat in the back.

Find me ANOTHER AIRLINE on the face of the earth that does that!

Sorry, when did this go from discussing the title of the thread to a "bitch" session on travel privileges. I failed to see the relationship or relevance to the original topic.

[AA123455]

This is why we get shit on. Ohhh shiny J class seats that'll sweeten the deal!

Waiting for the spin and gaslighting.

Are Jazz juniors about to be ball-gagged and introduced to the GIMP, over seniority.

If you are a Jazz pilot, stop stirring the pot and wait until you see a tentative agreement. You have no idea what the negotiations are centred on.

If you’re not a Jazz pilot, mind your own business...

LOL! Why do you assume we’ll get J seats? Simple DOH integration, and fall position bid will smooth things out with seniority and seat within a year. Done. Vote YES boys and girls, we can’t let this deal slip by!

[YVR_pushpull12]

How did Jazz (ALPA) ever allow a Biscuit Shooter to deadhead in J over a Pilot? I see it all the time, Jazz Captain and FA in J and the F/O humping it to a middle seat in the back.

Find me ANOTHER AIRLINE on the face of the earth that does that!

Sorry, when did this go from discussing the title of the thread to a "bitch" session on travel privileges. I failed to see the relationship or relevance to the original topic.

There was mention of instead of trying to create what if scenarios on DOH we should try and look at what we can get out of this deal.

Better travel benefits was one of them (The fact an Air Canada call centre employees parents have better standby travel benefits then Regional pilots is sad)

in reality better FO/Captain pay is needed, RRSP contributions should be a little higher and at a minimum better per diem and hotel. Even reopening Halifax base to allow for affordable housing for pilots at Jazz would be a huge step.

[Loon-A-Tic]

How did Jazz (ALPA) ever allow a Biscuit Shooter to deadhead in J over a Pilot? I see it all the time, Jazz Captain and FA in J and the F/O humping it to a middle seat in the back.

Find me ANOTHER AIRLINE on the face of the earth that does that!

Sorry, when did this go from discussing the title of the thread to a "bitch" session on travel privileges. I failed to see the relationship or relevance to the original topic.

There was mention of instead of trying to create what if scenarios on DOH we should try and look at what we can get out of this deal.

Better travel benefits was one of them (The fact an Air Canada call centre employees parents have better standby travel benefits then Regional pilots is sad)

in reality better FO/Captain pay is needed, RRSP contributions should be a little higher and at a minimum better per diem and hotel. Even reopening Halifax base to allow for affordable housing for pilots at Jazz would be a huge step.

How about making it about industry unity first and the spin off benefits later, MUCH later.