Sunwing/Westjet

[ALPApolicy]

From the WSW/WJA CBA:

5. LENGTH OF SERVICE PAY

21-5.01. Effective January 1, 2020, a Pilot shall be paid based on their Length of Service as a Pilot with the Company.

This is one reason there are two apparent seniority lists. The one called the Pilot Seniority List (WPSL/PSL) is the one the Company maintains and has pilots ordered by their date of hire at Swoop or WestJet (for those hired after January 1, 2019). We do not have access at this time to this list but we are entitled to see it. It is issued four times a year.

Encore pilots who flow to WestJet are paid, like OTS pilots, based on their length of service with the Company (Swoop or WestJet) as indicated on the WPSL/PSL. Their date of hire on the PTA generated transfer list masquerading as a seniority list is meaningless for pay purposes. As the PTA says, the Encore DOH is used to give preference for "bidding purposes" and nothing more (besides vacation allotment).

The framers of the PTA could have easily stated that Encore pilots use their Encore DOH for placement on the Company maintained WPSL/PSL, but they did not.

This is the document, with all of its flaws, that will be handed to the SWG merger committee should we merge.

The other document is not an official seniority list. It is maintained by ALPA but as the PTA says, it is a transfer list.

I don't know how anyone could not see the truth now.

[imjustlurking]

ALPAPolicy, you're posting a lot of words but not much substance.

I've lost count how many times I have said it, but I'll say it again.

The PTA is a ratified agreement that has superseded specific portions of the WS CBA. Your question of "where's the list?" is answered easily as "right in front of you."

[ALPApolicy]

ALPAPolicy, you're posting a lot of words but not much substance.

I've lost count how many times I have said it, but I'll say it again.

The PTA is a ratified agreement that has superseded specific portions of the WS CBA. Your question of "where's the list?" is answered easily as "right in front of you."

Not much substance, eh. Riddle me this: do you agree that the Company is maintaining one list of pilots and ALPA is maintaining another.

If you answer correctly, we can move to step two.

[SPR]

Part of the mystery has been solved. Who is responsible for maintaining the seniority list?

It depends on what you are referring to.

From the CBA:

-1. PILOT SENIORITY LIST

3-1.01. The Company shall maintain an updated Pilot Seniority List (PSL). The PSL shall be published quarterly (Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1, Oct 1) with a copy to the Association. The PSL shall be posted electronically on the Company intranet and shall remain there until replaced by an updated PSL. The PSL will also be made available on the EFB.

From the PTA:

10. CREATION AND ADMINISTRATION OF THE SENIORITY LIST

10.04 Once this process is complete, the Seniority List shall be shared with the airline managements (WestJet, Swoop, and Encore). Thereafter, an electronic copy of the
Seniority List, as amended, shall at a minimum be posted on the WestJet/Swoop and Encore MEC websites and made available on applicable airline EFBs.

10.05 The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.

Seriously? I just explained this: The PTA is an LOA that amends the WestJet CBA, and supercedes portions of it regarding seniority. In that regard, the clause from the PTA supercedes the original clause from the CBA. The original clause from the CBA is null and void. The latter overrides the former. Do you need me to make this clearer?

[imjustlurking]

ALPAPolicy, you're posting a lot of words but not much substance.

I've lost count how many times I have said it, but I'll say it again.

The PTA is a ratified agreement that has superseded specific portions of the WS CBA. Your question of "where's the list?" is answered easily as "right in front of you."

Not much substance, eh. Riddle me this: do you agree that the Company is maintaining one list of pilots and ALPA is maintaining another.

If you answer correctly, we can move to step two.

From the PTA:

The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.

I would not be surprised if the company has it's own list, but that's about as relevant as the colour of your eyebrows.

[ALPApolicy]

Part of the mystery has been solved. Who is responsible for maintaining the seniority list?

It depends on what you are referring to.

From the CBA:

-1. PILOT SENIORITY LIST

3-1.01. The Company shall maintain an updated Pilot Seniority List (PSL). The PSL shall be published quarterly (Jan 1, Apr 1, Jul 1, Oct 1) with a copy to the Association. The PSL shall be posted electronically on the Company intranet and shall remain there until replaced by an updated PSL. The PSL will also be made available on the EFB.

From the PTA:

10. CREATION AND ADMINISTRATION OF THE SENIORITY LIST

10.04 Once this process is complete, the Seniority List shall be shared with the airline managements (WestJet, Swoop, and Encore). Thereafter, an electronic copy of the
Seniority List, as amended, shall at a minimum be posted on the WestJet/Swoop and Encore MEC websites and made available on applicable airline EFBs.

10.05 The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.

Seriously? I just explained this: The PTA is an LOA that amends the WestJet CBA, and supercedes portions of it regarding seniority. In that regard, the clause from the PTA supercedes the original clause from the CBA. The original clause from the CBA is null and void. The latter overrides the former. Do you need me to make this clearer?

Yes, I do.

Where does it say the Company will stop maintaining its list?

[ALPApolicy]

ALPAPolicy, you're posting a lot of words but not much substance.

I've lost count how many times I have said it, but I'll say it again.

The PTA is a ratified agreement that has superseded specific portions of the WS CBA. Your question of "where's the list?" is answered easily as "right in front of you."

Not much substance, eh. Riddle me this: do you agree that the Company is maintaining one list of pilots and ALPA is maintaining another.

If you answer correctly, we can move to step two.

From the PTA:

The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.

I would not be surprised if the company has it's own list, but that's about as relevant as the colour of your eyebrows.

That's what you really think?

If the PTA were canceled today, following the 90 day wait period, on what list would a new hire pilot at WestJet or Swoop be placed?

[imjustlurking]

Not much substance, eh. Riddle me this: do you agree that the Company is maintaining one list of pilots and ALPA is maintaining another.

If you answer correctly, we can move to step two.

From the PTA:

The Association shall be responsible for maintaining the Seniority List in accordance with Section 2.02 of this LOA.

I would not be surprised if the company has it's own list, but that's about as relevant as the colour of your eyebrows.

That's what you really think?

If the PTA were canceled today, following the 90 day wait period, on what list would a new hire pilot at WestJet or Swoop be placed?

You tell me.

11.03 Notwithstanding any other provision in this LOA, this LOA may be cancelled by any Party
to this LOA provided the Party doing so notifies the other Parties in writing of its intent.
If said notice is provided, this LOA will become null and void ninety (90) days after the
notice is received. If this LOA is cancelled, any Pilot who has received a reserved seniority
number in accordance with the terms of this LOA prior to the date of cancellation will be
protected and shall continue to use their reserved seniority number for all purposes
described in this LOA. The Parties shall not exercise their rights under this provision in an
arbitrary, discriminatory or bad faith manner.

11.03.01 The cancellation of this LOA is subject to a ratification vote by eligible Pilots in
the applicable bargaining unit that has served notice, pursuant to 11.03.

[ALPApolicy]

The new hire pilot would be placed on the WPSL/PSL at the BOTL by date of hire at Swoop or WestJet, as has every pilot hired since January 1, 2019 been placed.

[ALPApolicy]

The Company maintains the WPSL/PSL and has not published it since the PTA came into force, in spite of the fact that they were contractually obligated to do so.

Since 2019, at the same time that a new hire OTS pilot was placed on the WPSL/PSL at the BOTL, they were also placed on the PTA generated quote Seniority List unquote at the BOTL.

In the case of an Encore pilot flowing to WestJet as a new hire, they were also placed on the WPSL/PSL at the BOTL by date of hire at WestJet or Swoop. There was no effect on their placement on the PTA generated quote Seniority List unquote. They kept the same position they held since date of hire at Encore.

[Latitude]

Sunwing Airlines as an airline has little value past it's physical assets. The only reason WestJet would have purchased the airline is so that they could also purchase Sunwing Vacations.

As it stands now, Sunwing Airlines is a charter airline that almost solely charters it's aircraft to Sunwing Vacations. It's purpose is to fulfill Sunwing Vacations vacation packages.

Or they bought 450ish pilot so the have a supply for expansion and the vacation company is a bonus.

So neither of you understand anything - as with most people.

Westjet didn't go buy anything. They have no money. This was all Steven Hunter's deal, and I'll be willing to bet most of the negotiating was done between SH and GS - who then told the WJ BOD what was going down as well as providing the 100's of millions cash plus the millions of shares.

This was not a simple we bought you deal. SWG didn't need a deal to survive - we needed a deal to grow. It was a package deal from the start and if SH didn't get what he wanted, he would have waited until he found the right deal. It's been said many times that Westjet vacations is folding into the new tour group with Sunwing vacations - both to be marketed under their respective brands. Sunwing airlines is a division of Sunwing vacations and will remain so. (apparently with no integration...we will see about that) All of these companies fall under the direction of SH as CEO....and yes - Sunwing airlines will grow into other markets as I said above. it's already been hinted at as a way to keep the fleet from bouncing back and forth....besides - lots of those are sold by the vacation side - so who do you think will do some of the flying?

Good joke. Mind you Sunwing already used 326.7 m$ out of 448.3m$ approved by the LEEFF program... Still hasnt pay back any of this loan.

Sunwing paint job will eventually disappear once the dust settles and the deal is approved.

[Vanguard]

John Swallow is on a crusade he won’t win. If anyone reading anyone of his comments doesn’t realize what he’s trying to do, I hope you learned to read. Read the documents he’s trying to create confusion over.

I’ll be interested to see how John quickly vanishes once’s he’s done embarrassing himself in front of all his peers. Guess what he won’t even care knowing his personality. IFKYK.

[Vanguard]

The one list or "PTA" post vote #2 with cash incentive has always been extremely unfair to pilots recently hired directly at WestJet and extremely rewarding to pilots who flow from Encore. Worse now with the new reserve system and talk of seniority bidding. I hope the Sunwing pilots don't accept the unfair system we've created and a fair solution for Encore pilots can be had without punishing OTS hires. Ex Encore pilots YOS pay carries over but DOH at WestJet for bidding and upgrades. Nobody is punished by pilots parachuting over them while they sit on reserve for years and the Encore pilots are still rewarded for their time at Encore

What makes you so entitled to think you should go ahead of an Encore pilot who gave years to the company workijg 18-20 days and you got hired years later? It’s not a punishment. It was something you agreed to. If you’re so unhappy, AC just opened their applications.

[ALPApolicy]

John Swallow is on a crusade he won’t win. If anyone reading anyone of his comments doesn’t realize what he’s trying to do, I hope you learned to read. Read the documents he’s trying to create confusion over.

I’ll be interested to see how John quickly vanishes once’s he’s done embarrassing himself in front of all his peers. Guess what he won’t even care knowing his personality. IFKYK.

You have the floor and can present opposing information to rebut any of the points I have made, free from interference, and all you can muster is an attack on me personally?

Why?

[boeingboy]

Good joke. Mind you Sunwing already used 326.7 m$ out of 448.3m$ approved by the LEEFF program... Still hasnt pay back any of this loan.

Sunwing paint job will eventually disappear once the dust settles and the deal is approved.

Haha...OK, because you know so much of the situation.

We'll just agree to disagree - and wait to see which one of us is right.

[ALPApolicy]

Since Vanguard has chosen to attack me personally and avoided adding any well thought out counterpoints to my arguments, I shall update the aviation community on my current belief on how things stand.

I will not be shrinking in embarrassment, but some people will.

I take no joy in what follows.

I started off my last leg today, YYZ to YYC believing I would be filing a Breach of Contract action against ALPA in BC Supreme Court in the next few days. As long time readers of this space will be aware, ALPA was constitutionally required to use "whatever means at its command" in order to achieve a DOH seniority list at WestJet. In the WSW/WJA CBA, they did not do that.

I believe a DFR challenge in front of the CIRB could have been brought within 90 days of finding out the state of the seniority list, and I believe it had a fair chance of success. But no affected OTS pilot did so. It wasn't my battle to fight so I let it go.

In addition to the DFR challenge, I believe a Breach of Contract action in civil court had a chance of success. But the two year limitation period on that action expired around December 2020. It wasn't my fight so I let it go. I had educated pilots publicly on what I believed to be the truth.

With the PTA signing in Dec 12, 2019, once again I believed ALPA had violated the Constitution and a DFR claim with its 90 day window was again activated with no action on the part of affected OTS pilots. I let it go.

The two year limitation period for another Breach of Contract claim closed on December 12, 2021. At least I then believed so.

I had put this issue behind me. No one had bargained away my seniority rights. Then the Sunwing purchase was announced. After reviewing seniority list merger procedures once again, and once again dispelling the myth of common employer between Encore and WestJet, I realized we had a problem with our list. Well, I always knew that.

After spending the last few weeks looking at our chances in a seniority list integration, I believed ALPA's actions with regard to seniority list construction was going to hurt us.

Yesterday I discovered that British Columbia had paused all running limitation periods for one calendar year due to COVID-19. Once again, the window was open to sue ALPA for the Breach due their negotiation of the PTA with its super-seniority provisions to Encore pilots flowing since December 12, 2019.

I believed I had standing to file as a member of the bargaining unit to sue ALPA seeking the remedies of damages to OTS pilots denied legitimate bidding awards. I would seek specific performance in the cancellation of the PTA on the basis it was in contravention of the Constitution. I would seek general financial damages due to the harm inflicted on our bargaining unit in the form of our damaged position in upcoming seniority list merger talks.

Those are the things I would have sought, and enlisted the aid of OTS pilots harmed by ALPA's malfeasance.

[ALPApolicy]

Today however, I reviewed the PTA thoroughly. I started with the assumption that the Pilot Seniority List, the PSL/WPSL was still in effect. As a reminder, nothing in the PTA extinguished the PSL. Indeed, the PSL is mentioned in the recall LOU of April 2, 2021.

You have to keep in mind always that the PTA was designed as a program to enable transfers between WJ group companies. Period.

The WSW/WJA CBA clearly specifies what seniority is, how it is calculated, how you earn it, how it is removed. The PSL is clearly the seniority list for use in vacancy awards, upgrades, downgrades, layoffs, recalls, reserve line awards.

None of the seniority provisions of the CBA were modified by the PTA. None.

When a new hire OTS pilot is hired at WSW/WJA, he/she is placed at the bottom of two lists:

1) The WSW/WJA CBA generated PSL/WPSL, and
2) The PTA generated transfer protocol list masquerading as a seniority list but is not.

When an Encore pilot transfers to Swoop or WestJet, they are placed at the bottom of one list:

The WSW/WJA PSL/WPSL.

There is no effect on their placement on the PTA generated quote Seniority List unquote because that position is established by their Encore DOH and does not change relative to other pilots on the list.

The PTA generated quote Seniority List unquote is described under the PTA Section misguidingly titled

SENIORITY

2.01 A combined seniority list, known as the “Seniority List,” shall be created through the process provided for in Section 10, below. Once created, the Seniority List shall be used for transfers between Swoop and WestJet, and between Encore and Swoop or WestJet.

2.02 Once this LOA becomes effective, any Pilot who is hired at WestJet, Swoop, or Encore shall be assigned a seniority number based on date of hire at the respective airline.

The quote Seniority List unquote is to be used for no other purpose than transfers between Swoop, WestJet, and Encore.

Although paragraph 2.02 seems to give a quote seniority number unquote to Encore pilots, it does not. I do not know why the framers of the PTA used the terminology they did.

I only know that there is one bargaining unit seniority list, the PSL/WPSL and it governs promotions and position awards at WSW/WJA.

This is very controversial and a devastating interpretation of the situation for the last two years at WSW/WJA. People who voluntarily stayed longer at Encore, believing they were grandfathered onto some sort of seniority list have not been. Every pilot who is hired at Swoop or WestJet goes to the BOTL regardless of who the previous employer was.

I would like to show affected pilots a copy of the PSL/WPSL to prove my point, but that will have to wait. Although the PSL is supposed to be available to all bargaining unit pilots on the EFB, for some reason it is not.

I wish no malice against anyone. I merely asked questions and did research. I do not think my interpretation of events is flawed.

The CBA states the Company maintains the PSL. The PTA says the Association (ALPA) maintains the quote Seniority List unquote. If I understand correctly, numerous position bids have been awarded in the past two years, in addition to layoff and recall notices, that were based on faulty information: the transfer list. They should have been based on the PSL, and then we could have verified the correctness of the awards with respect to the correct seniority list.

Have people been forced to commute when they shouldn't have had to? Were pilots sent to Encore when they could have stayed at WJA? Have WSW pilots been incorrectly awarded monthly schedules out of seniority? Have pilots been recalled to work out of seniority?

If someone can rebut my arguments I am all ears.

John Swallow

[ALPApolicy]

I do not know which is a worse indictment of our union.

A) Violating the Constitution and negotiating an agreement with the employer super-seniority to non-bargaining unit members, or

B) Participating in perpetuating (perhaps unknowingly) a belief among two bargaining units (2500 pilots) that a group of pilots were accumulating WSW/WJA seniority when they were not, and allowing to remain unchallenged improper position bid awards and other awards to pilots out of seniority (again, perhaps unknowingly).

Until today, I thought A) was the case. It turns out B) is likely the case.

[ALPApolicy]

And now Sunwing pilots have nothing to fear from the PTA.

[Nashbandicoot]

The one list or "PTA" post vote #2 with cash incentive has always been extremely unfair to pilots recently hired directly at WestJet and extremely rewarding to pilots who flow from Encore. Worse now with the new reserve system and talk of seniority bidding. I hope the Sunwing pilots don't accept the unfair system we've created and a fair solution for Encore pilots can be had without punishing OTS hires. Ex Encore pilots YOS pay carries over but DOH at WestJet for bidding and upgrades. Nobody is punished by pilots parachuting over them while they sit on reserve for years and the Encore pilots are still rewarded for their time at Encore

What makes you so entitled to think you should go ahead of an Encore pilot who gave years to the company workijg 18-20 days and you got hired years later? It’s not a punishment. It was something you agreed to. If you’re so unhappy, AC just opened their applications.

There was no reserve. Encore pilots have seniority for base bidding, vacation and upgrades in a socialized bidding system is what was "agreed to". The reality is if you are hired at WestJet now you are looking at years of reserve while you wait for Encore pilots to flow in above you. That is punishing to anyone hired directly at WestJet. Hope this mess sorts itself out for before the Sunwing pilots arrive. Also, if you are working 20 days a month at Encore that is by your own doing.

[ALPApolicy]

The one list or "PTA" post vote #2 with cash incentive has always been extremely unfair to pilots recently hired directly at WestJet and extremely rewarding to pilots who flow from Encore. Worse now with the new reserve system and talk of seniority bidding. I hope the Sunwing pilots don't accept the unfair system we've created and a fair solution for Encore pilots can be had without punishing OTS hires. Ex Encore pilots YOS pay carries over but DOH at WestJet for bidding and upgrades. Nobody is punished by pilots parachuting over them while they sit on reserve for years and the Encore pilots are still rewarded for their time at Encore

What makes you so entitled to think you should go ahead of an Encore pilot who gave years to the company workijg 18-20 days and you got hired years later? It’s not a punishment. It was something you agreed to. If you’re so unhappy, AC just opened their applications.

There was no reserve. Encore pilots have seniority for base bidding, vacation and upgrades in a socialized bidding system is what was "agreed to". The reality is if you are hired at WestJet now you are looking at years of reserve while you wait for Encore pilots to flow in above you. That is punishing to anyone hired directly at WestJet. Hope this mess sorts itself out for before the Sunwing pilots arrive. Also, if you are working 20 days a month at Encore that is by your own doing.

Encore pilots do not flow above OTS pilots. They join the PSL/WPSL at the bottom by date of hire at Swoop or WestJet like all other pilots.

[JetA Burner]

What makes you so entitled to think you should go ahead of an Encore pilot who gave years to the company workijg 18-20 days and you got hired years later? It’s not a punishment. It was something you agreed to. If you’re so unhappy, AC just opened their applications.

There was no reserve. Encore pilots have seniority for base bidding, vacation and upgrades in a socialized bidding system is what was "agreed to". The reality is if you are hired at WestJet now you are looking at years of reserve while you wait for Encore pilots to flow in above you. That is punishing to anyone hired directly at WestJet. Hope this mess sorts itself out for before the Sunwing pilots arrive. Also, if you are working 20 days a month at Encore that is by your own doing.

Encore pilots do not flow above OTS pilots. They join the PSL/WPSL at the bottom by date of hire at Swoop or WestJet like all other pilots.

It doesn't appear as such on the "current" PTA/SL. Why wouldn't the Encore guys/gals flow above the OTS guys if their DOH is prior to an OTS hire?

According to the LOU, that is the way she goes.

[ALPApolicy]

There was no reserve. Encore pilots have seniority for base bidding, vacation and upgrades in a socialized bidding system is what was "agreed to". The reality is if you are hired at WestJet now you are looking at years of reserve while you wait for Encore pilots to flow in above you. That is punishing to anyone hired directly at WestJet. Hope this mess sorts itself out for before the Sunwing pilots arrive. Also, if you are working 20 days a month at Encore that is by your own doing.

Encore pilots do not flow above OTS pilots. They join the PSL/WPSL at the bottom by date of hire at Swoop or WestJet like all other pilots.

It doesn't appear as such on the "current" PTA/SL. Why wouldn't the Encore guys/gals flow above the OTS guys if their DOH is prior to an OTS hire?

According to the LOU, that is the way she goes.

It is confusing, and I wonder if it is confusing on purpose?

First principles: the Pilot Seniority List is controlled and maintained by the Company. Although it is supposed to be updated 4 times a year and available on the Company iPad, it is not and has not been seen since the PTA vote passed on December 12, 2019.

But the PSL was mentioned in the recall LOU of April 2, 2021.

[ALPApolicy]

The list created by the PTA is called "Seniority List" and available on the iPad and used by the Company to award positions/recalls/layoffs etc, but it shouldn't be. Seniority is only based on the PSL, which we haven't seen in two years.

The Association maintains the "Seniority List", but this list is stated in the PTA as,being used for transfers between companies. Period.

[ALPApolicy]

When a new hire OTS pilot is hired at Swoop or WestJet, he goes to the bottom of two lists: the PSL, and the "Seniority List".

When an Encore pilot flows to WestJet or Swoop, he goes to the bottom of the PSL, but doesn't move positions on the PTA generated "Seniority List" because that is based on your first DOH at a WJ group company.