Negotiations

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Loon-A-Tic
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:22 pm
Loon-A-Tic wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:39 pm
rudder wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:15 am

It is quo until the parties mutually agree to any modifications to the CBA.

Running the company and hiring pilots is an employer function. That and following the terms of the CBA.

AC believes it can function status quo. It modified the equipment bid to reflect that reality. Jazz will have to see if it can function with status quo. Different issues. Different obligations. Different challenges.
Jazz needs to restore itself as a career employer with commensurate remuneration at all levels, benefits etc., flow has served its purpose. AC needs pilots so for those aspiring to AC; identify a suitable employer, gain the required experience. Be it at Jazz, Westjet or any other entity, apply to the Mothership. Suspending flow puts everyone on an equal footing, you're neither gaining nor loosing wherever you are currently employed.
Many came to jazz for flow. So not really fair or representative of all of the pilot groups interest suspending it. As I was led to believe unions are built to function in a somewhat democratic way, where proposals are put to a vote. No?
Flow was the "carrot" that led you to Jazz, just as it was at SKV. However; times have now change, I'm sure a vote will occur at some point, but the reality is that flow isn't a "selling point" anymore.
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negroni
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Re: Negotiations

Post by negroni »

canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:22 pm
Loon-A-Tic wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:39 pm
rudder wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:15 am

It is quo until the parties mutually agree to any modifications to the CBA.

Running the company and hiring pilots is an employer function. That and following the terms of the CBA.

AC believes it can function status quo. It modified the equipment bid to reflect that reality. Jazz will have to see if it can function with status quo. Different issues. Different obligations. Different challenges.
Jazz needs to restore itself as a career employer with commensurate remuneration at all levels, benefits etc., flow has served its purpose. AC needs pilots so for those aspiring to AC; identify a suitable employer, gain the required experience. Be it at Jazz, Westjet or any other entity, apply to the Mothership. Suspending flow puts everyone on an equal footing, you're neither gaining nor loosing wherever you are currently employed.
Many came to jazz for flow. So not really fair or representative of all of the pilot groups interest suspending it. As I was led to believe unions are built to function in a somewhat democratic way, where proposals are put to a vote. No?
A unions job is to protect and improve working conditions and create more good unionized jobs. Their job isn't to get you a gravy deal to LEAVE their union and job.

Jazz ALPAs first and foremost duty of representation is to the pilots at Jazz and the job at Jazz. If out of that there is a deal to be found on flow, that in exchange benefits the Jazz pilots who are there to stay then great. What you won't see happen is ALPA negotiate a deal that only benefits the company and those pilots who want to leave, without getting anything in return. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Loon-A-Tic
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

There was a time when Jazz, SKV and by extension AC need the "carrot" of flow but those days are over. Flow may actually may now be "limiting" the migration of a Jazz pilot to The Mothership. What Jazz now needs is leading remuneration for the pilot group, retention is now the leading concern. Some will stay, others will move on welcome to the next 10 years.

The new "carrot" needs to be industry leading entry wages at all levels, particularly at the entry level (so you can survive "flat pay" at AC), affordable benefits scaled to wages and an enhanced pension plan (for the Jazz lifer's).
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canadian_aviator_4
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Re: Negotiations

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

Loon-A-Tic wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:12 pm There was a time when Jazz, SKV and by extension AC need the "carrot" of flow but those days are over. Flow may actually may now be "limiting" the migration of a Jazz pilot to The Mothership. What Jazz now needs is leading remuneration for the pilot group, retention is now the leading concern. Some will stay, others will move on welcome to the next 10 years.

The new "carrot" needs to be industry leading entry wages at all levels, particularly at the entry level (so you can survive "flat pay" at AC), affordable benefits scaled to wages and an enhanced pension plan (for the Jazz lifer's).
What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.
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kiaszceski
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Re: Negotiations

Post by kiaszceski »

negroni wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:01 pm
kiaszceski wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 8:55 am So what are the next steps now that the company walked out of the negotiations?
Jazz walks out all the time. They did numerous times in 2014 and 2018. They'll be back. Like they always do.
When they came back, who made the most of the gains? Jazz or ALPA?
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Inverted2
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Inverted2 »

I think we’ll get something decent this time. Either that or they won’t get any experienced applicants. The recent trickle to AC isn’t selling itself either.

To answer your question last time in 2018 we got a nice 2% annual raise and our benefit premiums skyrocketed so with that and inflation we got a massive pay cut. :smt014
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negroni
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Re: Negotiations

Post by negroni »

canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:58 pm
Loon-A-Tic wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:12 pm There was a time when Jazz, SKV and by extension AC need the "carrot" of flow but those days are over. Flow may actually may now be "limiting" the migration of a Jazz pilot to The Mothership. What Jazz now needs is leading remuneration for the pilot group, retention is now the leading concern. Some will stay, others will move on welcome to the next 10 years.

The new "carrot" needs to be industry leading entry wages at all levels, particularly at the entry level (so you can survive "flat pay" at AC), affordable benefits scaled to wages and an enhanced pension plan (for the Jazz lifer's).
What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.
I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.
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canadian_aviator_4
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Re: Negotiations

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

negroni wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:20 am
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:58 pm
Loon-A-Tic wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:12 pm There was a time when Jazz, SKV and by extension AC need the "carrot" of flow but those days are over. Flow may actually may now be "limiting" the migration of a Jazz pilot to The Mothership. What Jazz now needs is leading remuneration for the pilot group, retention is now the leading concern. Some will stay, others will move on welcome to the next 10 years.

The new "carrot" needs to be industry leading entry wages at all levels, particularly at the entry level (so you can survive "flat pay" at AC), affordable benefits scaled to wages and an enhanced pension plan (for the Jazz lifer's).
What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.
I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.
Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.
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negroni
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Re: Negotiations

Post by negroni »

canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:45 am
negroni wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:20 am
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:58 pm

What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.
I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.
Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.
No. You're wrong.

A labour organizations duty is to protect and improve WAWCON within their own organization.

I heard Claude say very clearly at the roadshow in 2019, that the "flow" was added at the very end. The company essentially gave it to pump the deal up so it would pass. Zero bargaining value was used to obtain it.

I expect the Jazz MEC will still have the same train of thought. Flow only benefits the company and keeps wages supressed.

It's not Jazz ALPAs job to get you a better job elsewhere.
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Loon-A-Tic
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:45 am
negroni wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:20 am
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 4:58 pm

What jazz needs to do is consider the interests and concerns of all parties involved, simply put: Improved pay for those that want to stay and flow for those that don’t. Not one or the other.
I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.
Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.
Those interest also change over time, and these are certainly changing times for the industry.
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canadian_aviator_4
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Re: Negotiations

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

negroni wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:09 am
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:45 am
negroni wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:20 am

I don't think you understand what the purpose of a union is.
Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.
No. You're wrong.

A labour organizations duty is to protect and improve WAWCON within their own organization.

I heard Claude say very clearly at the roadshow in 2019, that the "flow" was added at the very end. The company essentially gave it to pump the deal up so it would pass. Zero bargaining value was used to obtain it.

I expect the Jazz MEC will still have the same train of thought. Flow only benefits the company and keeps wages supressed.

It's not Jazz ALPAs job to get you a better job elsewhere.
I guess that wouldn’t be too much of a surprise: A union improving their own work conditions at the expense of junior members.
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negroni
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Re: Negotiations

Post by negroni »

canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:13 pm
negroni wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:09 am
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 10:45 am

Defend the interests of a pilot group. Whether that actually happens is another story.
No. You're wrong.

A labour organizations duty is to protect and improve WAWCON within their own organization.

I heard Claude say very clearly at the roadshow in 2019, that the "flow" was added at the very end. The company essentially gave it to pump the deal up so it would pass. Zero bargaining value was used to obtain it.

I expect the Jazz MEC will still have the same train of thought. Flow only benefits the company and keeps wages supressed.

It's not Jazz ALPAs job to get you a better job elsewhere.
I guess that wouldn’t be too much of a surprise: A union improving their own work conditions at the expense of junior members.
Man a 4 day trip with you would be miserable.
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canadian_aviator_4
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Re: Negotiations

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

negroni wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:39 am
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 8:13 pm
negroni wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:09 am

No. You're wrong.

A labour organizations duty is to protect and improve WAWCON within their own organization.

I heard Claude say very clearly at the roadshow in 2019, that the "flow" was added at the very end. The company essentially gave it to pump the deal up so it would pass. Zero bargaining value was used to obtain it.

I expect the Jazz MEC will still have the same train of thought. Flow only benefits the company and keeps wages supressed.

It's not Jazz ALPAs job to get you a better job elsewhere.
I guess that wouldn’t be too much of a surprise: A union improving their own work conditions at the expense of junior members.
Man a 4 day trip with you would be miserable.
Love you too bro 😎
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Nick678
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Nick678 »

Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.

The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.

I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

Nick678 wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:56 pm Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.

The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.

I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.
Here is an interesting question - when since it’s inception has the 60% quota been honoured within any calendar year?

Not trying to suggest removing or diminishing that provision. Just trying to see if it has ever really been honoured because if it is not being honoured and (seemingly) cannot be enforced, then what is its true value?
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canadian_aviator_4
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Re: Negotiations

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

rudder wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:29 am
Nick678 wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:56 pm Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.

The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.

I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.
Here is an interesting question - when since it’s inception has the 60% quota been honoured within any calendar year?

Not trying to suggest removing or diminishing that provision. Just trying to see if it has ever really been honoured because if it is not being honoured and (seemingly) cannot be enforced, then what is its true value?
A question, over the past few years it probably went above and below %60. However, I wonder if it has ever been as low as it has been this year?

I couldn’t agree more regarding enforcement. The %60 hiring from my understanding cannot be enforced.
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Negotiations

Post by flyingcanuck »

canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:58 am
rudder wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:29 am
Nick678 wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:56 pm Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.

The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.

I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.
Here is an interesting question - when since it’s inception has the 60% quota been honoured within any calendar year?

Not trying to suggest removing or diminishing that provision. Just trying to see if it has ever really been honoured because if it is not being honoured and (seemingly) cannot be enforced, then what is its true value?
A question, over the past few years it probably went above and below %60. However, I wonder if it has ever been as low as it has been this year?

I couldn’t agree more regarding enforcement. The %60 hiring from my understanding cannot be enforced.
then they shouldnt have to put it in the contract :lol:
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link821
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Re: Negotiations

Post by link821 »

If they take away the 60% then everyone who just bought into the ponzi schem will feel even more duped then we already do.
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negroni
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Re: Negotiations

Post by negroni »

canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:58 am
rudder wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:29 am
Nick678 wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:56 pm Didn’t flow get us to the position where there is a shortage and now talks about pay are on the table? Remove it and AC will never hire from Jazz again, shown by how they avoided hiring us all year.

The negotiations are hopefully centred around improving pay without touching that 60%. I swear they change it we’ll all walk. We’ll never get close to AC wages so it’s really the only reason people apply, unless you’re coming straight from the daycares.

I’d pray for a seniority integration but I’ll keep dreaming.
Here is an interesting question - when since it’s inception has the 60% quota been honoured within any calendar year?

Not trying to suggest removing or diminishing that provision. Just trying to see if it has ever really been honoured because if it is not being honoured and (seemingly) cannot be enforced, then what is its true value?
A question, over the past few years it probably went above and below %60. However, I wonder if it has ever been as low as it has been this year?

I couldn’t agree more regarding enforcement. The %60 hiring from my understanding cannot be enforced.
Middle/end of 2017 and 2018 was extremely low. It was also a BS system back then and AC picked and chose who they wanted based on fleet requirements at Jazz. I know many people who were skipped over (and later hired) because they were flying a fleet that was short staffed while some with a hair over a year at Jazz got hired at AC. 2017/2018 also had a large amount of Porter and Encore pilots hired while hiring stagnated form Jazz.

There's nothing new under the sun. It's all happened before and it will happen again.
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SmokinJoe
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Re: Negotiations

Post by SmokinJoe »

The 60% “flow” as it is written is a joke. It should be done away with completely. Everyone who is on the list to go to AC is essentially handicapped as far as getting to AC goes. You can only go when AC decides Jazz can afford to loose you, you can not apply “off the street”, AC can halt hiring from Jazz at any time, yet continue to hire off the street which you can not partake in.

The “flow” program benefits AC much much more then it benefits any pilot who checked the box. I’m not against a proper flow program but it has to benefit all pilots on the property.
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Transition9er2 »

Hearing that encore is likely headed for salary review in December.

If this happens it’ll be a good opportunity for both Jazz and Encore to play off each other for better wages!

Hoping positive and real changes are on the horizon!

However I think it goes without saying, this leverage only works if all pilot groups stand together! AKA - don’t be in a rush to approve garbage!
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kiaszceski
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Re: Negotiations

Post by kiaszceski »

Transition9er2 wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:51 pm Hearing that encore is likely headed for salary review in December.

If this happens it’ll be a good opportunity for both Jazz and Encore to play off each other for better wages!

Hoping positive and real changes are on the horizon!

However I think it goes without saying, this leverage only works if all pilot groups stand together! AKA - don’t be in a rush to approve garbage!
Yeah no, there no salary review. There will be discussion for retention and cost of living. That doesn’t necessarily mean salary review.
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Malfunction
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Malfunction »

So are talks are over, low pay is here to stay
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

Malfunction wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:47 am So are talks are over, low pay is here to stay
Jazz and AC are in the same boat - no deal so status quo.

Whether that is sustainable on either property remains to be seen. Regardless, current and prospective pilots have other options.
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Malfunction
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Malfunction »

We recently received updated information regarding 2022 Pilot movement from the Company and Air Canada. This includes the November 16 Air Canada course. It should be no surprise to anyone that Air Canada is way behind on what they should have hired from Jazz.



After all calculations, Air Canada needs to hire another 248 Jazz Pilots by December 31 to be in compliance for 2022. Any further non-Jazz Pilots hired after November 16 will increase this number.



Air Canada resumed hiring Jazz Pilots as of November 7. Based on hiring projections it is unrealistic that Air Canada will be in compliance on December 31.



As you know, we are currently in negotiations with the Company. The MEC prefers to address this deficit with a collectively bargained solution. If unsuccessful, the MEC has a plan in place to address the lack of compliance, including mechanisms outside of the normal grievance process.



While we understand members may want more information, sharing our strategy publicly may prejudice potential options and undermine our genuine efforts to negotiate a solution.


In solidarity,


JAZ MEC
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