You just do it in higher frequency. Costs for an E2 are about 1/3rd of the 330, perhaps slightly less. If we've got more birds and pilots to throw at the problem, problem solved as long as we can secure airport slots.
A330 can seat as much as 3 E2's can. You are now paying for 2 extra slots, 2 extra crew, maintenance, etc to move the same amount of pax.
It would be just the extra slots technically if a 330 costs (wet) 3 times the E2 to operate. Again I don't have much more than Google searchable numbers (that's the level of effort I put in). I don't know what slots go for in Pearson or Cancun so tough to really measure.
Smaller aircraft do not have lower CASM than larger aircraft. The only reason that the trend to lower gauge began two decades ago was to increase frequency for legacy carriers using a network revenue model.
With many third party fees exploding (landing fees), declining yields, and a shortage of airplane drivers - the trend is now to upguage.
The E2 has cheaper trip costs than a 737 Max, but then a Q400 has lower trip costs than an E2 and a Cessna 185 has even lower trip costs than a Q400.
None of it matters.
It’s stage length adjusted unit costs that matter and the Max 8 has far lower unit costs than the E2, as does the -800NG and fully depreciated -700’s. It’s the same story with A32x’s.
These Airbus and Boeing aircraft can easily generate 900,000+ asm’s a day per tail whereas Porter struggles to reach 500,000 asm’s per tail per a day with their industry low utilization.
Unless Porter can attract significantly higher yields to cover off their higher costs, chasing notoriously low fare / low yield sun traffic with 132 seat, high capital cost aircraft is a fools game.
When people go on holiday, very few are looking to pay the highest fare. Thus the reason for Porter to almost always be priced below AC or WS.
That doesn’t suggest they’re achieving the yield premium necessary.
However, as long as they keep taking delivery of aircraft, they can continue to sale / leaseback and pocket the cash, using that to underwrite losses, but further increasing the monthly operating costs, and unit costs.
Eventually that stops, maintenance holidays end and juniority becomes seniority.
Realitychex wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 6:36 pm
The E2 has cheaper trip costs than a 737 Max, but then a Q400 has lower trip costs than an E2 and a Cessna 185 has even lower trip costs than a Q400.
None of it matters.
It’s stage length adjusted unit costs that matter and the Max 8 has far lower unit costs than the E2, as does the -800NG and fully depreciated -700’s. It’s the same story with A32x’s.
These Airbus and Boeing aircraft can easily generate 900,000+ asm’s a day per tail whereas Porter struggles to reach 500,000 asm’s per tail per a day with their industry low utilization.
Unless Porter can attract significantly higher yields to cover off their higher costs, chasing notoriously low fare / low yield sun traffic with 132 seat, high capital cost aircraft is a fools game.
When people go on holiday, very few are looking to pay the highest fare. Thus the reason for Porter to almost always be priced below AC or WS.
That doesn’t suggest they’re achieving the yield premium necessary.
However, as long as they keep taking delivery of aircraft, they can continue to sale / leaseback and pocket the cash, using that to underwrite losses, but further increasing the monthly operating costs, and unit costs.
Eventually that stops, maintenance holidays end and juniority becomes seniority.
Realitychex wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 6:36 pm
The E2 has cheaper trip costs than a 737 Max, but then a Q400 has lower trip costs than an E2 and a Cessna 185 has even lower trip costs than a Q400.
None of it matters.
It’s stage length adjusted unit costs that matter and the Max 8 has far lower unit costs than the E2, as does the -800NG and fully depreciated -700’s. It’s the same story with A32x’s.
These Airbus and Boeing aircraft can easily generate 900,000+ asm’s a day per tail whereas Porter struggles to reach 500,000 asm’s per tail per a day with their industry low utilization.
Unless Porter can attract significantly higher yields to cover off their higher costs, chasing notoriously low fare / low yield sun traffic with 132 seat, high capital cost aircraft is a fools game.
When people go on holiday, very few are looking to pay the highest fare. Thus the reason for Porter to almost always be priced below AC or WS.
That doesn’t suggest they’re achieving the yield premium necessary.
However, as long as they keep taking delivery of aircraft, they can continue to sale / leaseback and pocket the cash, using that to underwrite losses, but further increasing the monthly operating costs, and unit costs.
Eventually that stops, maintenance holidays end and juniority becomes seniority.
That’s when the rubber hits the road.
Or sooner.
No sh*t they’re price matching AC and WJ, how else you gonna get that market share?
Also for what it’s worth I literally cannot count the times we’ve been deplaning after a flight and I hear AT LEAST two passengers thanking the back end getting off saying “I’m never flying AC again this flight was fantastic”.
Yields will come when the market consolidates and we have the share we want.
Realitychex wrote: ↑Tue Oct 15, 2024 6:36 pm
The E2 has cheaper trip costs than a 737 Max, but then a Q400 has lower trip costs than an E2 and a Cessna 185 has even lower trip costs than a Q400.
None of it matters.
It’s stage length adjusted unit costs that matter and the Max 8 has far lower unit costs than the E2, as does the -800NG and fully depreciated -700’s. It’s the same story with A32x’s.
These Airbus and Boeing aircraft can easily generate 900,000+ asm’s a day per tail whereas Porter struggles to reach 500,000 asm’s per tail per a day with their industry low utilization.
Unless Porter can attract significantly higher yields to cover off their higher costs, chasing notoriously low fare / low yield sun traffic with 132 seat, high capital cost aircraft is a fools game.
When people go on holiday, very few are looking to pay the highest fare. Thus the reason for Porter to almost always be priced below AC or WS.
That doesn’t suggest they’re achieving the yield premium necessary.
However, as long as they keep taking delivery of aircraft, they can continue to sale / leaseback and pocket the cash, using that to underwrite losses, but further increasing the monthly operating costs, and unit costs.
Eventually that stops, maintenance holidays end and juniority becomes seniority.
That’s when the rubber hits the road.
Or sooner.
No sh*t they’re price matching AC and WJ, how else you gonna get that market share?
Also for what it’s worth I literally cannot count the times we’ve been deplaning after a flight and I hear AT LEAST two passengers thanking the back end getting off saying “I’m never flying AC again this flight was fantastic”.
Yields will come when the market consolidates and we have the share we want.
That was my experience last trip, most passengers of all ages said they'd never fly Air Canada again.
It is remarkably refreshing for people not to shit all over your employer when the conversation comes up. Definitely a nice aspect of working for Porter.
Our cabin crews really are remarkable professionals at delivering the product. Too bad they get paid so poorly for it.
braaap Braap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 11:15 am
It is remarkably refreshing for people not to shit all over your employer when the conversation comes up. Definitely a nice aspect of working for Porter.
Our cabin crews really are remarkable professionals at delivering the product. Too bad they get paid so poorly for it.
Question, are you sampling the good flights?
I was on a Porter flight and we were delayed at the gate, it was the day the computers went haywire, I was sitting there in civies listening to all the people chirping off.
There was a lot of, it’s no different than Air Canada, never again on Porter, etc.
I even explained to one couple that it was not the airlines fault and they still insisted this was the last Porter flight, you should’ve heard them the next time the rolling delay was announced.
You will have your fair share of unhappy people when things go wrong, so maybe get off your high horse!
braaap Braap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 11:15 am
It is remarkably refreshing for people not to shit all over your employer when the conversation comes up. Definitely a nice aspect of working for Porter.
Our cabin crews really are remarkable professionals at delivering the product. Too bad they get paid so poorly for it.
Question, are you sampling the good flights?
I was on a Porter flight and we were delayed at the gate, it was the day the computers went haywire, I was sitting there in civies listening to all the people chirping off.
There was a lot of, it’s no different than Air Canada, never again on Porter, etc.
I even explained to one couple that it was not the airlines fault and they still insisted this was the last Porter flight, you should’ve heard them the next time the rolling delay was announced.
You will have your fair share of unhappy people when things go wrong, so maybe get off your high horse!
Question, are you sampling more than one day where a third party system affected dozens of airlines?
braaap Braap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 11:15 am
It is remarkably refreshing for people not to shit all over your employer when the conversation comes up. Definitely a nice aspect of working for Porter.
Our cabin crews really are remarkable professionals at delivering the product. Too bad they get paid so poorly for it.
Question, are you sampling the good flights?
I was on a Porter flight and we were delayed at the gate, it was the day the computers went haywire, I was sitting there in civies listening to all the people chirping off.
There was a lot of, it’s no different than Air Canada, never again on Porter, etc.
I even explained to one couple that it was not the airlines fault and they still insisted this was the last Porter flight, you should’ve heard them the next time the rolling delay was announced.
You will have your fair share of unhappy people when things go wrong, so maybe get off your high horse!
Question, are you sampling more than one day where a third party system affected dozens of airlines?
No, dough head, my point was when things fall off the rails, regardless of whose fault it is, people say things like, never flying __________ again.
I’ve heard the same thing on a WJ flight, many times on a Flair flight and many times on AC, in fact I can recall one instance where a passenger blamed themselves for missing their cruise sailing. After many rolling delays for weather at departure and destination, the flight was cancelled, just about every passenger getting off, said things like friggen Air Canada, except the older couple who stopped and said, it was their fault, they knew there was a storm coming but they wanted to spend the extra time with the grandchildren, I was blown away!
Take care Duke
Question, are you sampling the good flights?
I was on a Porter flight and we were delayed at the gate, it was the day the computers went haywire, I was sitting there in civies listening to all the people chirping off.
There was a lot of, it’s no different than Air Canada, never again on Porter, etc.
I even explained to one couple that it was not the airlines fault and they still insisted this was the last Porter flight, you should’ve heard them the next time the rolling delay was announced.
You will have your fair share of unhappy people when things go wrong, so maybe get off your high horse!
Question, are you sampling more than one day where a third party system affected dozens of airlines?
No, dough head, my point was when things fall off the rails, regardless of whose fault it is, people say things like, never flying __________ again.
I’ve heard the same thing on a WJ flight, many times on a Flair flight and many times on AC, in fact I can recall one instance where a passenger blamed themselves for missing their cruise sailing. After many rolling delays for weather at departure and destination, the flight was cancelled, just about every passenger getting off, said things like friggen Air Canada, except the older couple who stopped and said, it was their fault, they knew there was a storm coming but they wanted to spend the extra time with the grandchildren, I was blown away!
Take care Duke
You do see the irony in saying “you sure you’re not cherry-picking these flights where customers are complimenting the company?” And then proceed to cherry-pick a black swan third party event that affected companies worldwide…. Right? LMFAO
And for the record, I wasn’t cherry-picking when I made my post earlier. I know it probably sounds crazy after working at a company that treats both it’s customers and employees terribly! I’m sure it’s all sky regionals fault
braaap Braap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 11:15 am
It is remarkably refreshing for people not to shit all over your employer when the conversation comes up. Definitely a nice aspect of working for Porter.
Our cabin crews really are remarkable professionals at delivering the product. Too bad they get paid so poorly for it.
Question, are you sampling the good flights?
I was on a Porter flight and we were delayed at the gate, it was the day the computers went haywire, I was sitting there in civies listening to all the people chirping off.
There was a lot of, it’s no different than Air Canada, never again on Porter, etc.
I even explained to one couple that it was not the airlines fault and they still insisted this was the last Porter flight, you should’ve heard them the next time the rolling delay was announced.
You will have your fair share of unhappy people when things go wrong, so maybe get off your high horse!
I never said we were better than anyone else or that we don't screw up so your high horse comment is unnecessary. It was simply an observation and a commendation of our cabin crew.
Question, are you sampling more than one day where a third party system affected dozens of airlines?
No, dough head, my point was when things fall off the rails, regardless of whose fault it is, people say things like, never flying __________ again.
I’ve heard the same thing on a WJ flight, many times on a Flair flight and many times on AC, in fact I can recall one instance where a passenger blamed themselves for missing their cruise sailing. After many rolling delays for weather at departure and destination, the flight was cancelled, just about every passenger getting off, said things like friggen Air Canada, except the older couple who stopped and said, it was their fault, they knew there was a storm coming but they wanted to spend the extra time with the grandchildren, I was blown away!
Take care Duke
You do see the irony in saying “you sure you’re not cherry-picking these flights where customers are complimenting the company?” And then proceed to cherry-pick a black swan third party event that affected companies worldwide…. Right? LMFAO
And for the record, I wasn’t cherry-picking when I made my post earlier. I know it probably sounds crazy after working at a company that treats both it’s customers and employees terribly! I’m sure it’s all sky regionals fault
You’re funny, I wasn’t cherry picking, I have been on your flights when things are good, no need to comment on the good, you know Air Canada carries more passengers than anyone else in Canada, your happy never flying Air again passengers are likely someone who experienced a bad flight.
My point was simple, I can’t make it anymore simple, even though the delay was of NO FAULT to Porter, you had passengers saying the same thing about you!
As you grow and your operation expands the reality is, delays will happen more frequently and you too will have passengers blaming you for the weather, ground stops, etc and when these passengers start yelling at your FAs, I’m sure All Of them will treat them with respect and caring!
braaap Braap wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 11:15 am
It is remarkably refreshing for people not to shit all over your employer when the conversation comes up. Definitely a nice aspect of working for Porter.
Our cabin crews really are remarkable professionals at delivering the product. Too bad they get paid so poorly for it.
Question, are you sampling the good flights?
I was on a Porter flight and we were delayed at the gate, it was the day the computers went haywire, I was sitting there in civies listening to all the people chirping off.
There was a lot of, it’s no different than Air Canada, never again on Porter, etc.
I even explained to one couple that it was not the airlines fault and they still insisted this was the last Porter flight, you should’ve heard them the next time the rolling delay was announced.
You will have your fair share of unhappy people when things go wrong, so maybe get off your high horse!
I never said we were better than anyone else or that we don't screw up so your high horse comment is unnecessary. It was simply an observation and a commendation of our cabin crew.
Maybe high horse was inappropriate, anyhow I was trying to point out as I did above, when things go wrong you will feel the blame regardless of fault.
I had a look at your data, interesting that AC, WJ, Cathay Pacific, and a few other big names are all pretty close, let’s revisit this once you have your 75 and 100 E2s.
Question, are you sampling the good flights?
I was on a Porter flight and we were delayed at the gate, it was the day the computers went haywire, I was sitting there in civies listening to all the people chirping off.
There was a lot of, it’s no different than Air Canada, never again on Porter, etc.
I even explained to one couple that it was not the airlines fault and they still insisted this was the last Porter flight, you should’ve heard them the next time the rolling delay was announced.
You will have your fair share of unhappy people when things go wrong, so maybe get off your high horse!
I never said we were better than anyone else or that we don't screw up so your high horse comment is unnecessary. It was simply an observation and a commendation of our cabin crew.
Maybe high horse was inappropriate, anyhow I was trying to point out as I did above, when things go wrong you will feel the blame regardless of fault.
I had a look at your data, interesting that AC, WJ, Cathay Pacific, and a few other big names are all pretty close, let’s revisit this once you have your 75 and 100 E2s.
Trick is get 'em buzzed, feed 'em, and let them sleep without having to redo announcements in both languages for every phase of flight when the crew gets bored and wants to flap their gums.
Or allow them to binge watch shows on their personal devices, talk to family or do business (still buzzed so it's fun) in relative comfort and the same cost as AC or WS.
That's why we're at 1.2. And think about this, that's with an insane growth rate over 2 years of pure chaos. I don't think it will matter with 100+ jets. Formula works. You guys still handing out peanuts and pretzels and charging 10 bucks for a beer?
I never said we were better than anyone else or that we don't screw up so your high horse comment is unnecessary. It was simply an observation and a commendation of our cabin crew.
Maybe high horse was inappropriate, anyhow I was trying to point out as I did above, when things go wrong you will feel the blame regardless of fault.
I had a look at your data, interesting that AC, WJ, Cathay Pacific, and a few other big names are all pretty close, let’s revisit this once you have your 75 and 100 E2s.
Trick is get 'em buzzed, feed 'em, and let them sleep without having to redo announcements in both languages for every phase of flight when the crew gets bored and wants to flap their gums.
Or allow them to binge watch shows on their personal devices, talk to family or do business (still buzzed so it's fun) in relative comfort and the same cost as AC or WS.
That's why we're at 1.2. And think about this, that's with an insane growth rate over 2 years of pure chaos. I don't think it will matter with 100+ jets. Formula works. You guys still handing out peanuts and pretzels and charging 10 bucks for a beer?
Yep, the honeymoon period is strong, you don’t “feed” your passengers unless you’re talking about the little bag of nuts or banana bread, hardly feeding, I’ll give you the one free drink, as far as I know it’s not an unlimited service, so again not getting “em buzzed” either!
As for the other, it is mandated to do all announcements in both official languages, it seems only AC is saddled with this requirement, the mid flight progress is “optional” but strongly “encouraged”, I opt not to on the early morning or late flight and I keep them short and sweet, knowing how annoying they are when you’re trying to watch a movie, etc.
Maybe high horse was inappropriate, anyhow I was trying to point out as I did above, when things go wrong you will feel the blame regardless of fault.
I had a look at your data, interesting that AC, WJ, Cathay Pacific, and a few other big names are all pretty close, let’s revisit this once you have your 75 and 100 E2s.
Trick is get 'em buzzed, feed 'em, and let them sleep without having to redo announcements in both languages for every phase of flight when the crew gets bored and wants to flap their gums.
Or allow them to binge watch shows on their personal devices, talk to family or do business (still buzzed so it's fun) in relative comfort and the same cost as AC or WS.
That's why we're at 1.2. And think about this, that's with an insane growth rate over 2 years of pure chaos. I don't think it will matter with 100+ jets. Formula works. You guys still handing out peanuts and pretzels and charging 10 bucks for a beer?
Yep, the honeymoon period is strong, you don’t “feed” your passengers unless you’re talking about the little bag of nuts or banana bread, hardly feeding, I’ll give you the one free drink, as far as I know it’s not an unlimited service, so again not getting “em buzzed” either!
As for the other, it is mandated to do all announcements in both official languages, it seems only AC is saddled with this requirement, the mid flight progress is “optional” but strongly “encouraged”, I opt not to on the early morning or late flight and I keep them short and sweet, knowing how annoying they are when you’re trying to watch a movie, etc.
3 year honeymoon I guess. Either that or they REALLY laced the kool-aid. (GUINESS).
Clearly the cabin crew saw a grumpy ol' guss sitting there . There are free refills depending how long the flight is and how many services they get through - fyi it's not just one 'free' drink (that's AC mentality) - it's service based. But if you want to politely ask the cabin crew for an extra bevie per service, they are usually happy to comply - particularly if you are crew (just not in uniform). If you are traveling in the first 7 or 8 rows, which isn't much extra versus a normal fare, unlimited full menu is included. If you are sitting in the back, again, if you bring the crews some treats and say hi in the cockpit, usually they'll keep you well fed for free - and unfortunately we are all out of banana bread. We need those chips from the Dash.
While we unfortunately don't have warm meal options due to lack of ovens, the standard menu is more than enough to get you across the country. A little cheese platter, croissant sandwich, and some main dish, plus a couple beers - you'll be set and satiated. Beers have to wait if you are flying the bird unfortunately - this ain't Air France (not that they can do that anymore either).