Seneca College Baron Gear Up Landing

[AuxBatOn]

These people do exist!

Never heard of one yet in the 12 years I've been involved in flying...

I didnt ask about you, I asked if you would trust your loved ones to fly with someone that has "forgotten to put down" the landing gear.

Same logic goes for my loved ones.

What do you tell your next boss when he asks you if you have ever landed, forgetting the gear?

"well yes sir, I have. But it wont ever happen again"

Be upfront, admit you screwed up and show that you can learn from mistakes. That goes far beyong the guy that claims nothing ever happenned to him. Because we all know that the later is lying.

I understand there are crappy pilots that land 702/703 aircraft gear up. But for an Instructor at the prestigous Seneca college to do so is several orders of magnitude worse.

It's not about the type of operation, it's not about being a good or a crappy pilot. It happens to everyone, even the best (accidents/incidents I mean). Again, have you read the report?? I think that's the 3rd time I ask the question with no answer... Everybody has good and bad days. No reason to forget the gears, but some factor will contribute to forgetting it. For the 4th time and 2nd time in this post, have you read the report?

AuxBatOn

[Flaperons]

Cat:

Explain to me the relevance of a radial engine to the fact that the Baron requires you to go full fine before landing.

Like I said flaperons it is unlikely you were even born when I first started flying turbine engines, so you are making a fool of yourself by displaying your obvious ignorance of the world of aviating.

This is not a logical statement. You're saying that the fact that I was born after 1917 (the year you became Super Sky Commander) displays my ignorance of the world of aviation, and therefore I am a fool. You know, it's very common for the elderly to become easily confused. It's also very common for the aged to become envious of those that can still wipe their own bums.

[Strega]

auxbat,

I have not read the report, but unless it includes info as to a mechanical malfunction, resulting in this gear up, why would it be relevant?


Next time you drive across a bridge, or ride in an elevator, keep it in the back of your mind that "mistakes do happen"

I can assure you more pilots forget the gear, than engineers that forget to design bridges etc properly.....

[Flaperons]

Strega:

Perhaps you should read the report. Don't be stubborn, just read it. Go on, you can do it. Just read it Strega. STREGA! READ THE FUCKING REPORT!!!

BTW, I haven't read it. But I would if I were you...

[Cat Driver]

Explain to me the relevance of a radial engine to the fact that the Baron requires you to go full fine before landing.

Simple....if you have read what I said I also go full fine before landing....I just do not see any benefit in driving any piston engine down hill during a landing appproach with the RPM wound right up because I put the props in full fine.....

By the way flaperons I clearly remember the last time I flew a Baron B58 because I spent the day with Lee M a r v i n ( huh this name would not show so I spaced the letters. ) flying him to Edmonton from Calgary and back on a day charter...he was a real neat guy and a pleasure to fly around, and he appreciated the fact that I didn't drive him nuts on the descent for the landings by using full fine....oh that was 1971 I remember because I was flying the DC3 for Mobil oil at the time.

What were you doing in 1971 were you flying a Baron then?

[Flaperons]

No man, not even a twinkle by that point. This clearly means you're a better pilot than I.

Lee Majors? The Bionic Man!?! NO F*CKIN WAY!!!!!! That's awesome dude! Did he make that slow motion sound during the flare too?

Not sure you really addressed the question properly. The POH says full fine. Radial engines exist. What's the connection?

[Cat Driver]

The POH says full fine.

I don't have a Baron POH.....how exactly is it worded?

No man, not even a twinkle by that point. This clearly means you're a better pilot than I.

No that does not mean I am a better pilot than you......however I have managed to fly for over fifty five years accident free and violations of the regulations free..in some of the most demanding conditions in aviation in over forty countries....that is a fact not an opinion.

[Navajo-dude]

Cat head fakes him with the dipstick, the idiot goes for it, so a kuckle sandwich to the chops, uppercut, and a flurry to the solar plexus..............

[AuxBatOn]

auxbat,

I have not read the report, but unless it includes info as to a mechanical malfunction, resulting in this gear up, why would it be relevant?

It would be relevant to maybe make you understand that there is more than mechanical malfunction in an accident. Human Factors, Design Factors, task saturation, etc have an influence when something goes wrong (and yes, there are flaws in the design that could have saved the day. Engineers design, right?) Learning from other's mistake is essential because you can't make all the mistakes in the world youself in your short lifetime. I tell you, read it and read the one on the A-4 in Bagotville as well, lots of good points to learn from. And its free!

Next time you drive across a bridge, or ride in an elevator, keep it in the back of your mind that "mistakes do happen"

I can assure you more pilots forget the gear, than engineers that forget to design bridges etc properly.....

Yup, and that's an accepted risk in the society. Even though there are more safety steps in engineering (there is more than 1 engineer working on a major project like a bridge for example). And yes, engineers screwed up. Quebec Bridge anyone? More recently the "viaduc la concorde" in Laval that killed a few people as it collapsed? Engineers are not God. They are not immune from mistakes. Plus, when they design something, they are at 1G in a non-moving office, in a conditionned room with all the time in the world to figure out a solution to the problems they encounter. And even then, they screw up and lives are wasted.

AuxBatOn

[Strega]

Cat,,

It appears the future of the aviation buisness feels that landing gear up is a simple "right of passage" if you will, and once done, you will have magically learned from your "mistake" and never do it again.

For the record, I have, and will never "forget" to put down the landing gear. (2500 or so cycles)

Cat, how many cycles have you done witout forgetting the gear?

Maybe it is true, we are gods gift to aviation for not forgetting the gear

[Flaperons]

Under "Normal Procedures":

BEFORE LANDING

1. Seat Belts and Shoulder Harnesses - FASTENED; Seat Backs - POSITION FOR LANDING
2. Fuel Selector Valves - CHECK ON (feel for detent & visually check)
3. Fuel Boost Pumps - OFF, OR LOW AS PER AMBIENT TEMPERATURE
4. Cowl Flaps - AS REQUIRED
5. Mixture Controls - FULL RICH, or AS REQUIRED BY FIELD ELEVATION (depending on AC series)
6. Flaps - APPROACH (15 degrees)
7. Landing Gear - DOWN
8. Flaps - FULL DOWN (30 degrees)
9. Airspeed - ESTABLISH NORMAL LANDING APPROACH SPEED
10. Propellers - HIGH RPM

I think it's pretty clearly worded. That is from Raytheon Aircraft, btw.

Another interesting procedure:

BALKED LANDING

1. Propllers - HIGH RPM
2. Power - MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE
3. etc...

[Strega]

Auxbat,

The failures you mentioned were not engineering failures, but poor maint and inspection failures.

I understand you can be overwhelmed at times, but forgetting the gear cannot ever, at any time be tolerated. This is the same level as running out of gas, does it happen? yes. I guess there are just too many stupid people in this industry..

[AuxBatOn]

Maybe it is true, we are gods gift to aviation for not forgetting the gear

No, you're god's gift to aviation because you think nothing will ever happen to you and you strictly refuse to admit that people screw up and it happens. That's human nature. Pilots are not better than anybody else.

Cat: I have a hard time believing that you never had an "oh shit" moment in your lenghty career.

AuxBatOn

[AuxBatOn]

Auxbat,

The failures you mentioned where not engineering failures, but poor maint and inspection failures.

I understand you can be overwhelmed at times, but forgetting the gear cannot ever, at any time be tolerated. This is the same level as running out of gas, does it happen? yes. I guess there are just too many stupid people in this industry..

I never said it's okay to forget the gears (or run out of fuel). It might be a stupid mistake but it certainly doesn't make the person stupid. In fact, screw ups happenned to some very good and well respected pilots. What makes someone stupid is refusing to admit that humans are humans and mistakes are and will be made, basically, turning a blind eye on our very nature. We just have to learn from our mistakes and other people's mistake. That's why I read those reports; so I don't have to do all these mistakes myself.

AFAIK, the Quebec bridge collapsed TWICE during CONSTRUCTION. It was engineering flaws.

AuxBaton

[Flaperons]

Strega:

Perhaps it would add some context if you let us know the approximate level of flying you're at now. You don't have to be specific, of course, but at least have the balls to be honest.

[Strega]

[quote="AuxBatOn']
I never said it's okay to forget the gears (or run out of fuel). It might be a stupid mistake but it certainly doesn't make the person stupid. In fact, screw ups happenned to some very good and well respected pilots. What makes someone stupid is refusing to admit that humans are humans and mistakes are and will be made, basically, turning a blind eye on our very nature. We just have to learn from our mistakes and other people's mistake. That's why I read those reports.

AFAIK, the Quebec bridge collapsed TWICE during CONSTRUCTION. It was engineering flaws.

AuxBaton[/quote]

If they forget the gear, does it make them smart?

Being a professional pilot brings the responsibility of NOT making mistakes, especially mistakes as simple as "forgetting the gear"

[Flaperons]

C'mon Strega. Stand up. I'll show you mine if you show me yours...

[BTD]

Cat,,

For the record, I have, and will never "forget" to put down the landing gear. (2500 or so cycles)

Cat, how many cycles have you done witout forgetting the gear?

Maybe it is true, we are gods gift to aviation for not forgetting the gear

I cannot believe that a "professional" pilot actually thinks like this. The above statement is tantamount to saying that you will never cause an error that causes an accident. You seem to think that the gear is the be all end all. However, there are a lot of other things you can forget that will kill you faster. How many people have been killed from gear up landings? I can't think of any. I can think of a few who have been killed from forgetting to set flaps on T/O. Has that ever happened to you, or are you above that too?

How about the accident reports I posted earlier illustrating the FACT that experienced pilots with Thousands of hours TT and on type flying for professional airlines, with well equipped aircraft make the type of mistakes you claim you will never make.

By the way it saved me landing on a runway with the gear up twice.

In closing may I say I really feel for the people who were involved in this accident, today it was them..tomorrow it could be me or you.

My comments were only about what I personally feel about a weird training policy.

Anyone can have an accident...but we all should strive to teach in a manner that reduces the chances of having one...and leaving the gear down on a Baron to save money on maintenance is not a good enough reason to increase the risk factor on any flight.

Those quotes are from Cat. He may not think exactly like you do Strega.

I'd like to live in the fantasy world you do.

BTD

[AuxBatOn]

If they forget the gear, does it make them smart?

Nope. It makes them human. They just picked a very serious mistake to prove it...

Being a professional pilot brings the responsibility of NOT making mistakes, especially mistakes as simple as "forgetting the gear"

Did I ever say that forgetting the gear was a simple mistake?

Your responsability is to MITIGATE the risk of flying and carry out your task (whatever it is) in a safe manner. On every flight you will make some mistakes. You will never do a flight to perfection. Unless your own standards are REALLY low. So saying that your responsability is to not make mistakes is very unrealistic.... Now, if you claim you carry out every flight you do to perfection, not only I don't what to fly in your airplane but I don't want to fly within 50 miles of your position...

AuxBatOn

[Strega]

Strega:

Perhaps it would add some context if you let us know the approximate level of flying you're at now. You don't have to be specific, of course, but at least have the balls to be honest.

I have around 5000 landings, in about 30 or so different types, several type endorsements, Group 1 IR, ATPL, and have just about met all the reqs for an AME-M1 license (this is all in addition to my formal education) and I have been thinking about learning to fly a helicopter this fall, if I can find a decent deal.

[BTD]

As for engineering failures. How about Apollo 1. Some engineering failures in that accident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1

[Strega]

BTD,

That wiki article is complete BS.

I cant think of a spacecraft from the early ages of space flight, that did not use a 100% oxygen enviroment. This was a risk we took. If you want to know why we did this, go back to school.

[AuxBatOn]

How about the design flaw in the escape hatch?

AuxBatOn

[Cat Driver]

9. Airspeed - ESTABLISH NORMAL LANDING APPROACH SPEED
10. Propellers - HIGH RPM

You will note that there is no mention of " WHEN " to select full fine...for instance if I were stabilized in the approach and still several miles from touch down common sense tells me that selecting full fine will increase RPM thus increasing piston travel and creating unnecessary wear on the engine due to friction and of course the noise factor as RPM increases for no logical reason..gravity is the motivating force in maintaining the rate of descent...power is only used to control the rate of descent and the amount of power is quite low.....therefore using full fine is counterproductive with regard to the need for power during the descent.....when there is no thrust being produced as you close the throttles to touch down is the ideal moment to select full fine.

Cat: I have a hard time believing that you never had an "oh shit" moment in your lenghty career.

AuxBatOn

I have had many many " oh shit " moments during my career and some so frightening I shudder just at the thought of remembering them....I have made some of the most bone headed mistakes known to man or beast....but I was very fortunate in that I never had to fill out an accident or incident report and obviously never had to file an insurance claim for damaging an aircraft...and they never caught me when I broke the rules.

[Strega]

Again BS,

How useful would the escape hatch be in orbit or the trip to the moon?

Could have it been designed better? sure, but this was not the primary objective.