Donald wrote:Bit of a sidetrack, but aside from the initial housing cost, are the maritimes truly "cheap" to live in?

Groceries, utilities, gas for the car, hst/gst, annual car inspections, driver's license cost, etc, etc, etc??????

I recently flew with a WJ Captain who moved back east. He had a healthy Mortage in YYC, but sold his house for a strong profit and ended up buying a house in CASH in Halifax. He was telling me after all was said and done (taxes, Utilities food) at the end of the month he was no further ahead then when he lived in YYC with a mortage. We then went on to have a lengthy talk about taxes
I used to think your $$$ went alot further back east, but I don't think it does anymore.

KAG wrote:

Donald wrote:Bit of a sidetrack, but aside from the initial housing cost, are the maritimes truly "cheap" to live in?

Groceries, utilities, gas for the car, hst/gst, annual car inspections, driver's license cost, etc, etc, etc??????

I recently flew with a WJ Captain who moved back east. He had a healthy Mortage in YYC, but sold his house for a strong profit and ended up buying a house in CASH in Halifax. He was telling me after all was said and done (taxes, Utilities food) at the end of the month he was no further ahead then when he lived in YYC with a mortage. We then went on to have a lengthy talk about taxes
I used to think your $$$ went alot further back east, but I don't think it does anymore.

I've lived in Calgary, Peace River AB before, also lived in Eastern Ontario, and I gotta say, I don't see how this is even remotely true.

Life is cheaper down here, if someone is telling you with NO mortgage payments they still have the same cash flow the same down east as someone with a mortgage payment in Calgary, they're lying to you, or at least not telling you all the facts.

Yes people in Alberta pay lower taxes, but it still doesn't add up to the quality of life., it's not as if the cost of food is drastically cheaper in Alberta, hell even the price of gas is relatively close too!

I can't count how many people I personally know, or met who went out west to work either for airlines or other industries and moved home simply because the cost of living was too high. Granted there more than likely is more to do in Calgary than in Halifax on a day to day basis, and I will be the first to admit that I really enjoyed my time living in Calgary but I still wouldn't want to raise a family and own a house anywhere near a reasonable commute to the downtown area for work.

I also want to add for the few comments about the "laid back lifestyle" don't forget how hard many maritimers have to work in order to support their familes.

If everyone from New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland who works in the oil fields of Alberta and BC just decided to "move home" then entire oil industry in Alberta (which allows Alberta to enjoy many of its tax benefits) would collapse, or at least be severely hindered.

Inverted
The "laid back lifestyle" is not a slight, it's a compliment. I'm born and raised out east, and there is an friendly easy going attitude back home that I miss. I'm also aware how hard easterners work, and where they work - you can't go to a northern/arctic town and not run across a newf or 3.

As for what the CPT told me, I think he's an honest guy, and would have no reason to make this up. He's living out east and happy to be there.

Only drawback for me living here down east is I can't get classified French and Italian vintages at(when available) at a decent price that can be had at the SAQ or LCBO.

KAG wrote:Inverted
The "laid back lifestyle" is not a slight, it's a compliment. I'm born and raised out east, and there is an friendly easy going attitude back home that I miss. I'm also aware how hard easterners work, and where they work - you can't go to a northern/arctic town and not run across a newf or 3.

As for what the CPT told me, I think he's an honest guy, and would have no reason to make this up. He's living out east and happy to be there.

Sorry I mis-understood your post, my bad.

I don't mean to imply he was purposely lying to you, but he may be seeing the grass greener on the other side.

KAG wrote:Agreed 85K is laughable for a 737 Captain, but it's supply and demand. The east is full of pilots who don't want to leave.
To each their own.
The wages may be lower, but if thier happy, good on em. There is alot to be said for the laid back east coast lifestyle.

It's always good to be happy but the problem for the rest of the industry is that some shoddy employer will use the 85K that CJ Captains make and try to lower the wages of their employees.

Spit-IX wrote:

Anti-Ice wrote: Canjet is the best company I've ever worked for.........I'd be happy to retire with them. This is a place where u r known by name, not a number.........and they treat u very well.

Why don't they pay you industry standard wages if they are such a good company? NG Captain's being paid what some turbo prop Captains make and much less than some biz-jet Captains, after you bring your own NG rating to the company, means they only care about dollars and cents and you are just a peon to them..........but please.........enjoy!

Oh, I had to comment on this one. Albeit, the post is several months old...get your facts in order before you shoot from the hip with commentary like this. In the case of operators that provide sun-destination lift, CJ and SW are the industry and the industry standard in Canada. The pay scale at CJ is in the order of 145K for a 9-10 year Captain. It may not be an AC salary, but when the cost of living in Halifax is factored in, it is very comparable to the great salary/wage at WJ. Don't rain on the parade for those at CJ. They do "enjoy!"

"The pay scale at CJ is in the order of 145K for a 9-10 year Captain."


Hey no worries at all because I heard when Canjet #4 starts up they are going to have a 15 year payscale topping out at 156k/year yipeeeeeeeee ! By then we should all be flying in lower earth orbit so all you YHZ guys should be home for lunch.



---

Stick-Shaker wrote: In the case of operators that provide sun-destination lift, CJ and SW are the industry and the industry standard in Canada. The pay scale at CJ is in the order of 145K for a 9-10 year Captain.

So you're telling me you are happy with a year 1 Captain salary of 85K?

Do Sunwing and Transat pay 85K to year 1 Captains?

Need I say more other than you are being screwed?

For the Record...

Year 1 Captain at Sunwing is 80K...
I believe it jumps to 100K at year 2!

ram wrote:For the Record...

Year 1 Captain at Sunwing is 80K...
I believe it jumps to 100K at year 2!

Good God!

And it keeps going lower... what's next... another pilot group happy with year 1 salary of $75K for an NG?

100K for year 2 is still an insult IMO... doesn't SW also require a training commitment/bond?

You guys are amusing.

I used to work there, and I am now at AC since 2007. The conditions at CJ are good; pilots are happy and enjoy going to work. Not everyone needs to work for WJ or AC to enjoy a quality of life. $85K to start may not be the salary that you might want to expect to skipper an NG, but you can't argue with the results. The old adage, money isn't everything holds true. Query any CJ pilot, and you will find that they are content with their conditions and salary. There is something to be said for that, and you can throw all the crap you want at them. No one has had to move to YYC or YYZ or be thrown into a brutal commuter lifestyle. 14-15 days off per month, a great management team, and flight op department supervisors that are approachable and know you by name are just some of the niceties they enjoy. All of you that are gloating over how great you have it and how little the CJ'ers have, need to get a grip. I have been around this industry long enough to know that the first ones to throw stones at others are usually unhappy at their own job.

Is there even a thread on this site that comes from a CJ'er who is complaining? No, all of this rhetoric is coming from you "king of the hill" types that want us all to believe you are the envy of the industry. Move on.

Well said, Stick Shaker.

Stick-Shaker wrote:You guys are amusing.

I used to work there, and I am now at AC since 2007. The conditions at CJ are good; pilots are happy and enjoy going to work. Not everyone needs to work for WJ or AC to enjoy a quality of life. $85K to start may not be the salary that you might want to expect to skipper an NG, but you can't argue with the results. The old adage, money isn't everything holds true. Query any CJ pilot, and you will find that they are content with their conditions and salary. There is something to be said for that, and you can throw all the crap you want at them. No one has had to move to YYC or YYZ or be thrown into a brutal commuter lifestyle. 14-15 days off per month, a great management team, and flight op department supervisors that are approachable and know you by name are just some of the niceties they enjoy. All of you that are gloating over how great you have it and how little the CJ'ers have, need to get a grip. I have been around this industry long enough to know that the first ones to throw stones at others are usually unhappy at their own job.

Is there even a thread on this site that comes from a CJ'er who is complaining? No, all of this rhetoric is coming from you "king of the hill" types that want us all to believe you are the envy of the industry. Move on.

Well said Stick-Shaker!

Well said, Stick Shaker. I am a former CanJetter as well! I came to AC after the layoff in 2006. CanJet has great management, great training and I firmly believe their contract will get better over time like WestJet's did. Mike Z and Mike M are great guys to work for and as far as Ken Rowe he is no different then Calin, Robert or Ace.

Stick-Shaker wrote:You guys are amusing.

I used to work there, and I am now at AC since 2007. The conditions at CJ are good; pilots are happy and enjoy going to work. Not everyone needs to work for WJ or AC to enjoy a quality of life. $85K to start may not be the salary that you might want to expect to skipper an NG, but you can't argue with the results. The old adage, money isn't everything holds true. Query any CJ pilot, and you will find that they are content with their conditions and salary. There is something to be said for that, and you can throw all the crap you want at them. No one has had to move to YYC or YYZ or be thrown into a brutal commuter lifestyle. 14-15 days off per month, a great management team, and flight op department supervisors that are approachable and know you by name are just some of the niceties they enjoy. All of you that are gloating over how great you have it and how little the CJ'ers have, need to get a grip. I have been around this industry long enough to know that the first ones to throw stones at others are usually unhappy at their own job.

Is there even a thread on this site that comes from a CJ'er who is complaining? No, all of this rhetoric is coming from you "king of the hill" types that want us all to believe you are the envy of the industry. Move on.

Typical inward thinking Canjetter in my opinion. If you take the binders off you will see there is a subtle hit at all the YYC and YYZ pilots that ARE making 85k a year in that post. And if CJ was so good then what prompted the move to go make 36k/year at AC? Canjet 1,2,3,4,?,?

Stick-Shaker wrote:You guys are amusing.

What you fail to understand is that while you and other CJ Captains would be happier than a pig in shit at 85K/year other 705 operators will look at the happy CJ folks and then try to lower the wages of their employees further lowering the standard and it would keep spiraling downward. Remember, managers don't care about you they care about how much you are costing the company.

If you are happy that's great but if your peers have to suffer with wage roll backs and or new start ups offer even lower wages we all lose. We should be collectively working to stop the degradation of our profession not contributing to it.

bigskyjoc wrote:Typical inward thinking Canjetter in my opinion. If you take the binders off you will see there is a subtle hit at all the YYC and YYZ pilots that ARE making 85k a year in that post. And if CJ was so good then what prompted the move to go make 36k/year at AC? Canjet 1,2,3,4,?,?

Call it want you want. Inward, backwards, inside out, or upside down. The same can be said for yourself with your inward thinking. I am not calling anyone or any operation down, that’s been your position. It doesn't take an expert to see you are the closed minded one.

Since you ask, I left CJ back in 2007 when the operation was very fragmented. 2-3 aircraft operations, and ad-hoc charter only. Going to AC for $37K was a hard decision as I was giving up 50% income. But knowing what I know now about CJ, I (and many others) would return if the opportunity existed in YHZ. Don't kid yourself, we have all heard from unhappy WJ'rs and AC'rs; some who envy the position of the folks at CJ. This industry is a gamble at best, regardless where you are sitting now. We all make career decisions based with the facts we have at the time. I am sure you are no different.

So tell me what committee do you sit on? How do you volunteer your time to help raise the "bar"? Do you hold title on your LEC or perhaps an MEC, are you on a scheduling committee, safety committee, hotel committee? How many pilot meetings have you attended and stood up and offered real solutions, and not just sat there in the corner grumbling beneath your breath? You, and others like you are the cookie cutter, plague of the industry, that do nothing more than armchair quarterback others careers, gloat over how well you have it (and you likely don't) and then do nothing to help change it with alternative remedy and solution. In this industry you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem. This group of individuals at CJ, took the bull by the horns, certified ALPA, worked with CJ management, offered solutions, and drastically improved the working conditions and salary from what it once was. Other companies have done the same and improved their working conditions, Bearskin, TransAt, Kelowna FC, to mention a few. The first contract is just a drawing board, and a place to start. Future contracts usually offer improvemnets, and more lucrative targets. The pilot group at CJ has come along way since 2000 and they ARE doing their part to raise the bar in as timely a fashion as collectively possible.

You are the one who needs to take the blinders off.

Stick Shaker, I was just going to ask FICU or anyone else if they wanted to compare pay stubs and schedules but your post will do nicely. Well said, carry on.

Stick-Shaker wrote:

bigskyjoc wrote:Typical inward thinking Canjetter in my opinion. If you take the binders off you will see there is a subtle hit at all the YYC and YYZ pilots that ARE making 85k a year in that post. And if CJ was so good then what prompted the move to go make 36k/year at AC? Canjet 1,2,3,4,?,?

Call it want you want. Inward, backwards, inside out, or upside down. The same can be said for yourself with your inward thinking. I am not calling anyone or any operation down, that’s been your position. It doesn't take an expert to see you are the closed minded one.

Since you ask, I left CJ back in 2007 when the operation was very fragmented. 2-3 aircraft operations, and ad-hoc charter only. Going to AC for $37K was a hard decision as I was giving up 50% income. But knowing what I know now about CJ, I (and many others) would return if the opportunity existed in YHZ. Don't kid yourself, we have all heard from unhappy WJ'rs and AC'rs; some who envy the position of the folks at CJ. This industry is a gamble at best, regardless where you are sitting now. We all make career decisions based with the facts we have at the time. I am sure you are no different.

So tell me what committee do you sit on? How do you volunteer your time to help raise the "bar"? Do you hold title on your LEC or perhaps an MEC, are you on a scheduling committee, safety committee, hotel committee? How many pilot meetings have you attended and stood up and offered real solutions, and not just sat there in the corner grumbling beneath your breath? You, and others like you are the cookie cutter, plague of the industry, that do nothing more than armchair quarterback others careers, gloat over how well you have it (and you likely don't) and then do nothing to help change it with alternative remedy and solution. In this industry you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem. This group of individuals at CJ, took the bull by the horns, certified ALPA, worked with CJ management, offered solutions, and drastically improved the working conditions and salary from what it once was. Other companies have done the same and improved their working conditions, Bearskin, TransAt, Kelowna FC, to mention a few. The first contract is just a drawing board, and a place to start. Future contracts usually offer improvemnets, and more lucrative targets. The pilot group at CJ has come along way since 2000 and they ARE doing their part to raise the bar in as timely a fashion as collectively possible.

You are the one who needs to take the blinders off.

I think some tend to forget how long AC has been around and how many times the collective agreement has been negotiated. Also keep in mind that the idea of airline Captains making 300k + was in an era before low-cost carriers came along and while the industry as a whole was much more regulated. If we compare WJ's newest collective agreement with the original package offered at the time of start-up more than a decade ago there is not much comparison. CJ in its current state is a new organization and I too think there is a good chance for progress to be made as contracts are re-negotiated.

Stick-Shaker wrote:

bigskyjoc wrote:Typical inward thinking Canjetter in my opinion. If you take the binders off you will see there is a subtle hit at all the YYC and YYZ pilots that ARE making 85k a year in that post. And if CJ was so good then what prompted the move to go make 36k/year at AC? Canjet 1,2,3,4,?,?

Call it want you want. Inward, backwards, inside out, or upside down. The same can be said for yourself with your inward thinking. I am not calling anyone or any operation down, that’s been your position. It doesn't take an expert to see you are the closed minded one.

Since you ask, I left CJ back in 2007 when the operation was very fragmented. 2-3 aircraft operations, and ad-hoc charter only. Going to AC for $37K was a hard decision as I was giving up 50% income. But knowing what I know now about CJ, I (and many others) would return if the opportunity existed in YHZ. Don't kid yourself, we have all heard from unhappy WJ'rs and AC'rs; some who envy the position of the folks at CJ. This industry is a gamble at best, regardless where you are sitting now. We all make career decisions based with the facts we have at the time. I am sure you are no different.

So tell me what committee do you sit on? How do you volunteer your time to help raise the "bar"? Do you hold title on your LEC or perhaps an MEC, are you on a scheduling committee, safety committee, hotel committee? How many pilot meetings have you attended and stood up and offered real solutions, and not just sat there in the corner grumbling beneath your breath? You, and others like you are the cookie cutter, plague of the industry, that do nothing more than armchair quarterback others careers, gloat over how well you have it (and you likely don't) and then do nothing to help change it with alternative remedy and solution. In this industry you are either part of the solution, or part of the problem. This group of individuals at CJ, took the bull by the horns, certified ALPA, worked with CJ management, offered solutions, and drastically improved the working conditions and salary from what it once was. Other companies have done the same and improved their working conditions, Bearskin, TransAt, Kelowna FC, to mention a few. The first contract is just a drawing board, and a place to start. Future contracts usually offer improvemnets, and more lucrative targets. The pilot group at CJ has come along way since 2000 and they ARE doing their part to raise the bar in as timely a fashion as collectively possible.

You are the one who needs to take the blinders off.

Ah lovely just as I thought. So lets see here, you left Canjet #2, or 3 (many of us lost count now) because the operation was so fragmented (crappy) that you had to suck up a 50% paycut and work at AC. Nice to see experience served you well at Canjet. So now that you are looking back (or inward again call it what you like) you are praising the very company you left (or left you) and it just so happens to be one of the lowest paying NG jobs in the world again, remember Canjet 1,2,3,?).

Lets be clear, many of us if not all of us have no ill will against the CJ employees. What pisses off many in other parts of the country is how Ken Rowe has masterfully played the YHZ card time and time again to the very same people he has pissed on in the past couple of decades. Ah yes, Ken Rowe, a name that you RARELY see Canjetters bring up because we all know its one of the little skeletons thats quietly kept in the closet behind all the praise and rah rah we see on here. You insist on talking about and spinning the envy people may have about CJ. Well in my 24 years in the biz I can say that there are just as many people uttering vulgar at the mere mention of KRs name. We are glad that many Canjetters are happy but don't for a second think that whats good for the YHZ Canjetter is good for any other pilot in other parts of Canada. So when the praise flows in propping up the lowest paying NG job in the world it is in actuality a kick in the teeth to the guy/gal with a $300,000 mortgage in Calgary trying to make ends meet. Its called gloating.

In summary others looking from the other side see "I don't give a shit what others make as long as I am happy in my own little world." Good on CJ for sticking with ALPA now lets see how this chapter unfolds in the great Canadian Race to the bottom.

bigskyjoc wrote:Ah lovely just as I thought. So lets see here, you left Canjet #2, or 3 (many of us lost count now) because the operation was so fragmented (crappy) that you had to suck up a 50% paycut and work at AC. Nice to see experience served you well at Canjet. So now that you are looking back (or inward again call it what you like) you are praising the very company you left (or left you) and it just so happens to be one of the lowest paying NG jobs in the world again, remember Canjet 1,2,3,?).

Lets be clear, many of us if not all of us have no ill will against the CJ employees. What pisses off many in other parts of the country is how Ken Rowe has masterfully played the YHZ card time and time again to the very same people he has pissed on in the past couple of decades. Ah yes, Ken Rowe, a name that you RARELY see Canjetters bring up because we all know its one of the little skeletons thats quietly kept in the closet behind all the praise and rah rah we see on here. You insist on talking about and spinning the envy people may have about CJ. Well in my 24 years in the biz I can say that there are just as many people uttering vulgar at the mere mention of KRs name. We are glad that many Canjetters are happy but don't for a second think that whats good for the YHZ Canjetter is good for any other pilot in other parts of Canada. So when the praise flows in propping up the lowest paying NG job in the world it is in actuality a kick in the teeth to the guy/gal with a $300,000 mortgage in Calgary trying to make ends meet. Its called gloating.

In summary others looking from the other side see "I don't give a shit what others make as long as I am happy in my own little world." Good on CJ for sticking with ALPA now lets see how this chapter unfolds in the great Canadian Race to the bottom.

Oh geeez, not the KR thing again. All other CEO's are saints? This is old. I'm certain your friends at "Team Complainer" will welcome you aboard.

Anybody know what the guys at Enerjet are making?..haven't even seen them mentioned on this thread, they've operated the NG for a year now with a bunch of guys that left our shop..just curious

whipline wrote:Stick Shaker, I was just going to ask FICU or anyone else if they wanted to compare pay stubs and schedules but your post will do nicely. Well said, carry on.

You don't want to know because it would make the CJ Captains feel like slave labour... even the senior ones.

The question was asked about what we can do to reverse this downward spiral... don't accept anything less than what you feel your job is worth. Ask yourself, is Captain of a 737NG operating internationally worth $85K? Does the CJ Captain who's ship was temporarily hijacked on the ground feel his job and responsibility is worth $85K when industry standard for a entry level 705 Boeing/Airbus skipper is well over $100K.

CJ started at 85K... SW lowered the bar to 80K(as stated here)... what's next or do you even care?