Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

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Morry Bund
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by Morry Bund »

Wright wrote:Is safety of no concern in a bona fide occupational requirement of a company such as Air Canada?
The issue of safety is not germane to the age 60 dispute here for the simple reason that safety is the domain of Transport Canada. The regulatory body licences the pilots, certifying them competent. That renders the issue neutral as between the parties in this dispute. Safety is assumed. That sole fact distinguishes this dispute from other BFOR disputes in the country, such as the one you mentioned, firefighters.

The issue here is strictly contractual in the context of the collective agreement and its pension plan and its interplay with the statutory restrictions in the human rights legislation.
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FADEC
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by FADEC »

As for the Issue of Safety as a BFOR Defense; ICAO studied 3000 Pilots over five years, or 15,000 pilot years. They found that there was no Safety or Medical reason to retire pilots at 60. In fact, pilots over 54 were found to be safer than younger pilots, and it was found that incapacitating medical events typically happened earlier than that age.

ICAO decided to change their recommendation to Member States. Despite the clear finding that age was not a safety issue for pilots, a few countries were uncomfortable with no age restriction. Thus ICAO made the recommendation of PIC's being under 65, and that one crew member should be under 60. As data builds up, it is intended that these age recommendations will be eliminated.

ACPA and AC searched the world for anyone to testifiy that there was a medical reason for Age 60 Retirement; they could find no expert who would agreed with their position.
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klacker
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by klacker »

A couple of questions for Raymond Hall.

1) Has there been a Federal Court ruling regarding Air Canada's claim for BFOR ?

2) If the Federal Court rules the Paragraph 15(1)(c) is unconstitutional, what will be the ramifications? Will those pilots forced into retirement since, at very least, September 2009 have to be reinstated?

Thanks
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MackTheKnife
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by MackTheKnife »

Only if they have filed a claim within the prescribed window of 12 months since their forced retirement. If you have not filed a HRC claim by then, it is assumed you were in agreement with being unceremoneously booted off the property.
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accumulous
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by accumulous »

klacker wrote:A couple of questions for Raymond Hall.

1) Has there been a Federal Court ruling regarding Air Canada's claim for BFOR ?

2) If the Federal Court rules the Paragraph 15(1)(c) is unconstitutional, what will be the ramifications? Will those pilots forced into retirement since, at very least, September 2009 have to be reinstated?

Thanks
This a small sample of the info you won't be getting from the Association. From a legal review website. Sorry for the length of it but it's an interesting read. Not totally clear on the timelines but BFOR has been shot down in spectacular fashion in Thwaites et al, and now we're waiting for the Judicial Review decision on the Charter issue, expected in maybe 8-12 weeks time. BFOR is up for Judicial Review at the Federal Level. Good luck defeating the already decided Tribunal Decision based on the Supreme Court BFOR test.

Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decision may signal death knell for mandatory retirement in federal sector

Topics: - Canadian Human Rights Act - Canadian Human Rights Tribunal - Charter of Rights & Freedoms - Discrimination - Mandatory Retirement

On July 1, 2009, Nova Scotia amended its human rights legislation in order to prohibit mandatory retirement in most cases. This means that every province and territory in Canada has now either prohibited mandatory retirement outright, or only allows it if it is based on bona fide retirement or pension plans, or a bona fide occupational requirement.

The same cannot be said for federally regulated employers in Canada.

Section 15(1)(c) of the Canadian Human Rights Act (the "Act") still permits employers in the federal sector to impose mandatory retirement policies on their employees if they have reached "the normal age of retirement for employees working in positions similar to the position of that individual".

Sections 15(1)(a) and 15(2) of the Act provide that mandatory retirement policies are not discriminatory if they are based on a bona fide occupational requirement.

However, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal's (the "Tribunal") decision in Vilven v. Air Canada, 2009 CHRT 24, which was issued on August 28, 2009, could spell the beginning of the end of the "normal age of retirement" provision in the Act.

In that decision, the Tribunal ruled that:

The mandatory retirement provision in section 15(1)(c) of the Act violates the equality provisions found in section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and on the facts of this case, was not "saved" by Section 1 of the Charter. Section 1 of the Charter allows it to be breached where it is a "reasonable limit prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society"; and
In this case, Air Canada and the Air Canada Pilots Association ("ACPA") had not established that the mandatory retirement provisions in their collective agreement were a bona fide occupational requirement within sections 15(1)(a) and 15(2) of the Act.

Background

A provision in the collective agreement between Air Canada and ACPA required pilots to retire to at age 60. Two pilots who were forced to retire as a result of this provision filed a complaint under the Act.

In its first decision in this case, the Tribunal determined that age 60 was the "normal age of retirement" for positions similar to those occupied by the complainant pilots and that section 15(1)(c) of the Act did not violate section 15 of the Charter.

The complainant pilots (and the Canadian Human Rights Commission) applied to the Federal Court for judicial review. In a decision issued April 9, 2009, the Federal Court ruled that:

the Tribunal had erred in its conclusions on the "normal age of retirement" for pilots; and
section 15(1)(c) of the Act violated section 15 of the Charter.

The Court then remitted the case back to the Tribunal to determine if section 15(1)(c) of the Act could be saved under section 1 of the Charter. If not, the Tribunal would be
required to determine if the mandatory retirement provision was a bona fide occupational requirement under sections 15(1)(a) and 15(2) of the Act.

Can Section 15(1)(c) of the Act be justified under Section 1 of the Charter?

On its second look at this issue, the Tribunal noted that the question of whether legislative provisions permitting mandatory retirement are justifiable under section 1 of the Charter had been considered in a number of Canadian cases previously, the most notable
being the Supreme Court of Canada's ("SCC") decision in McKinney v. University of Guelph [1990] 3 SCR 229.

In that case, the SCC ruled that the provision in the Ontario Human Rights Code that allowed for mandatory retirement violated section 15 of the Charter but was saved by section 1.

The Tribunal went on to note, however, that in recent cases the courts and labour arbitrators had concluded that the social and economic context in which McKinney was decided had changed sufficiently to render the SCC's decision with respect to section 1 of the Charter inapplicable to present day circumstances. Specifically, it was noted that since 1990 there had been a "sea change" in the attitude toward mandatory retirement in Canada and internationally.

The Tribunal agreed with this conclusion citing, among other things: (1) the steps taken by provincial legislatures in Canada in recent years to abolish mandatory retirement; (2) the labour shortages that are predicted to plague Canada in the coming decades; and (3) the evidence of experts that called into question the purported negative effects of abolishing mandatory retirement that had been raised in McKinney.

The Tribunal also noted that the "normal age of retirement" criterion found in section 15(1)(c) was flawed because, among other things, it allowed the dominant player in an industry, such as Air Canada, to set the mandatory retirement age for the entire industry.

Another point seized on by the Tribunal, was that far less intrusive options than the blanket provision found in section 15(1)(c) of the Act were available to achieve the same goal. The most obvious was the allowance of mandatory retirement were it was based on a bona fide occupational requirement (see discussion below).

On consideration of these facts and the applicable legal tests, the Tribunal concluded that section 15(1)(c) of the Act was not saved by section 1 of the Charter and thus refused to apply section 15(1)(c) of the Act to the facts in this case.

Is the mandatory retirement provision a bona fide occupational requirement?

The second issue the Tribunal considered was whether the mandatory retirement provision in the collective agreement was a bona fide occupational requirement ("BFOR") and thus permissible under sections 15(1)(a) and 15(2) of the Act.

The Tribunal noted that in order to rely on the "BFOR" defence Air Canada and ACPA must satisfy the three-part test set out by the SCC in the "Meiorin" decision. (British Columbia (Public Service Employee Relations Commission) v. BCGSEU, [1999] 3 S.C.R. 3).

The three-part Meiorin test consists of the following:

the employer must show that it adopted the standard - in this case, mandatory retirement - for a purpose rationally connected to the performance of the job.
the employer must establish that it adopted the particular standard in an honest and good faith belief that it was necessary to the fulfilment of that legitimate work-related purpose.

the employer must establish that the standard is reasonably necessary to the accomplishment of that legitimate work-related purpose. To show that the standard is reasonably necessary, it must be demonstrated that it is impossible to accommodate individual employees sharing the characteristics of the claimant without imposing undue hardship upon the employer.

The Tribunal further stated that in assessing whether it would be impossible to accommodate the employee without imposing an undue hardship, the employer must consider the three factors expressly set out in section 15(2) of the Act: health, safety and cost. However, case law had established that this list was not exhaustive and that factors such as employee morale and mobility, interference with other employee's rights, and disruption of the collective agreement could also be considered.

As is usually the case in relation to the Meiorin test , the Tribunal stated that the real issue between the parties was whether the complainant pilots could be accommodated without causing undue hardship to Air Canada and the pilots association.

In this regard, the Tribunal undertook a detailed analysis of Air Canada's operations and the international standards that it must comply with concerning the age of pilots, and concluded that, prior to 2006 (when the international standards changed) both pilots could have continued to fly as first officers (not as captains/pilots) without causing an undue hardship to Air Canada.

Although the Tribunal found the post 2006 situation more problematic, it concluded that there was also insufficient evidence to establish that it would be an undue hardship for Air Canada to accommodate the pilots and keep them in its employ.

In relation to ACPA, the Tribunal stated that because it agreed to include the age 60 mandatory retirement provision in the collective agreement, it shared a joint responsibility with Air Canada to seek to accommodate the pilots. Relying again on the evidence of an expert, the Tribunal concluded that the rights of younger pilots - including their seniority rights - would not be substantially interfered with if pilots over age 60 were allowed to continue to work and thus it would not impose an undue hardship on ACPA.
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TheStig
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by TheStig »

Raymond Hall wrote:No. All of the provisions related to insurances and pensions are specifically exempted by the Canadian Human Rights Benefits Regulations that were promulgated coincident with the enactment of the statute. They obviously need to be updated because they still use the numbering from the original incarnation of the statute of over 20 years ago. But the do exempt insurance, disability and pension plan benefits from the general prohibition against age discrimination. In fact, they currently allow for a total cut-off of disability payments at the "normal age of retirement."
Should this now be a concern for pilots looking to fly beyond 60? Just think about the incentives to retire at 60 that could be negotiated in a back door attempt to force pilots to leave at 60 through re-negotiating the terms of the pension plan and/or GDIP.
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vic777
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by vic777 »

TheStig wrote: Should this now be a concern for pilots looking to fly beyond 60? Just think about the incentives to retire at 60 that could be negotiated in a back door attempt to force pilots to leave at 60 through re-negotiating the terms of the pension plan and/or GDIP.
Stig, short answer, NO. Just come up with some specifics and we'll show you how ridiculous, illegal and easy to shoot down they are. You cannot target anyone based on age. Please, just come up with one idea, I'll explain why it wont work. Don't forget, the ACPA Elite who come up with theses things, are all approaching Sixty.
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accumulous
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by accumulous »

TheStig wrote:
Raymond Hall wrote:No. All of the provisions related to insurances and pensions are specifically exempted by the Canadian Human Rights Benefits Regulations that were promulgated coincident with the enactment of the statute. They obviously need to be updated because they still use the numbering from the original incarnation of the statute of over 20 years ago. But the do exempt insurance, disability and pension plan benefits from the general prohibition against age discrimination. In fact, they currently allow for a total cut-off of disability payments at the "normal age of retirement."
Should this now be a concern for pilots looking to fly beyond 60? Just think about the incentives to retire at 60 that could be negotiated in a back door attempt to force pilots to leave at 60 through re-negotiating the terms of the pension plan and/or GDIP.
The back door closed quite some time ago. You have to use the front door. And no it's not a revolving door.
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Last edited by accumulous on Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MackTheKnife
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by MackTheKnife »

TheStig wrote:
" a back door attempt to force pilots to leave at 60 through re-negotiating the terms of the pension plan and/or GDIP.
Rumour has it ACPA is already persueing this in negotiations. What it can't get through the front door it is vainly trying to get through the back. I would expect no less of an association whose only concern is for a favoured few.
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777longhaul
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by 777longhaul »

accumulous

Great post, thanks, it helped me understand the issues even more!

This post, should be read, and re read by anyone not seeing, or getting the correct information.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by Raymond Hall »

klacker wrote:Has there been a Federal Court ruling regarding Air Canada's claim for BFOR ?
Yes and no. The Federal Court reviewed the Tribunal’s BFOR decision in 2010 CHRT 24 and referred it back to the Tribunal for consideration on two issues, firstly the availability of the BFOR defence after November 23, 2006, and secondly, reconsideration of that issue in light of all three Steps of the Meiorin test. That resulted in the Tribunal decision 2010 CHRT 10.

That decision is now back before the Federal Court for another judicial review. We have not received a hearing date on the JR yet, as not all of the procedural steps have been completed in order to apply for a hearing date. Those Steps will be completed in mid January, and we expect a hearing date in March or April. That is the first BFOR case that is before the Federal Court.

A second case is the Thwaites decision, which also includes BFOR. The Thwaites decision (2010 CHRT 11) may or may not make it to the Federal Court any time soon, by reason of the fact that there is an outstanding motion to have the case put back on the agenda before the Tribunal, given that the Tribunal deferred hearing the constitutional issue in that case in 2009, pending the hearing and release of the decision on the merits of Paragraph 15(1)(c) of the CHRA. If the motion is granted, the hearing will be recommenced and that will likely lead to an adjournment of all four BFOR applications filed by the four parties to the hearing. That means that it could be over a year before the Federal Court finally addresses the BFOR issues in that case, if ever.

To find out the status of each case before the Federal Court, you can search their file registry:

http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/In ... ries_e.php

If you search by Party Name, typing in Air Canada Pilots Association, you will get the specific file numbers of all of ACPA’s files there. Searching “Air Canada” alone is a bit more troublesome, because you find all sorts of other files not related to ACPA.

Once you obtain the file numbers, search the individual files by clicking on the RE button. That will give you the listing of all the procedural steps taken on the file to date. It may require a little interpretation.
klacker wrote:2) If the Federal Court rules the Paragraph 15(1)(c) is unconstitutional, what will be the ramifications? Will those pilots forced into retirement since, at very least, September 2009 have to be reinstated?
It is one thing to have the Federal Court make a finding, which is binding on the Tribunal, and another thing to have the Tribunal act on that finding. With the Vilven-Kelly proceeding, the Tribunal conducted a remedy hearing in advance of the JR of the liability decision. Only the Tribunal can issue an order reinstating complainants, because the Tribunal has exclusive jurisdiction within its own sphere. But the Tribunal is bound by the interpretations of law issued by the Federal Court and higher courts.

Another aspect is timing. If the Federal Court of Appeal upholds the Federal Court’s finding that Paragraph 15(1)(c) is unconstitutional, and that consequently the mandatory retirement provision of the collective agreement is invalid, and if the FCA issues a general declaration of invalidity that is effective immediately, that decision would be immediately binding upon the Tribunal, but you still have the problem of scheduling a remedy hearing to obtain reinstatement. There is no guarantee that the remedy will include reinstatement, as reinstatement is a discretionary remedy, to be decided by the Tribunal in the circumstances of each case before it.

Holding a remedy hearing for almost 200 Complainants could obviously present some logistical problems.
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Wright
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by Wright »

It keeps being brought up that other airline pilots may fly to 65. The grounds of the entire discussion here is not about 65 or any number, it's about flying to an UNLIMITED age.

Should a 92 year old be at the helm of an airliner full of passengers if he/she passes a generic test? If the answer is no, then that is apparently now discriminatory??

Unlimited age 'rights' (especially in a seniority based system with enticement through continual position improvement) have no place in the airline pilot world. -Bona fide occupational requirement.
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by TheStig »

vic777 wrote:
TheStig wrote: Should this now be a concern for pilots looking to fly beyond 60? Just think about the incentives to retire at 60 that could be negotiated in a back door attempt to force pilots to leave at 60 through re-negotiating the terms of the pension plan and/or GDIP.
Stig, short answer, NO. Just come up with some specifics and we'll show you how ridiculous, illegal and easy to shoot down they are. You cannot target anyone based on age. Please, just come up with one idea, I'll explain why it wont work. Don't forget, the ACPA Elite who come up with theses things, are all approaching Sixty.

For example, Pilots premiums/payments into the Group Disability Insurance Program based on their age, this seems to be a standard insurance industry practice.
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Last edited by TheStig on Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
777longhaul
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by 777longhaul »

Wright

You dont get it. There is NO GENERIC TEST. Get some background info, before you print this stuff.

Go to "Google" and type in BFOR educate yourself, and those that are involved with you on this matter.

Pilots, are licensed by the MOT, (government regulator) both for (medical and flying licence, 2 separate licences) they, are checked by approved examiners (company and or government or both at the same time) every 6 months, in the simulator, and at 12 months on a line check. (revenue flight). As well, the day to day operations, of flying with someone different all the time, has its own built in peer checks. If a pilot, any pilot, is sub par, or not making the standards set out for them, they will be pulled out of service. It happens for many reasons, not all of which, are age related.

I understand what you are thinking, but it is not what you see. The regulations that are imposed on a pilot, regardless of age, are very stringent, and are forever, constant, every time she/he goes to work. There is no way around it. No one, gets more scrutiny than a pilot, both on and off the job.

You dont have an aviation background, suspect you are involved with someone who is totally opposed to the age 60 issue, who is not very well informed as to what has happened, and what is happening, and what is going to happen in Dec 2012. The courts, are going to make all the decisions, for you, me, and everyone else.
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Wright
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by Wright »

777longhaul, I hear what you're saying and I'm very aware and familiar with all of the standardized testing and checking that takes place with airline pilots. Have you ever flown with pilots who scare you, and wonder how they continually get pushed through the system? Would you like to fly with these same pilots continuing into their 70's? Given that the minimum standardized hoops are jumped through, airline pilots should not have a 'right' to be at the helm until an UNLIMITED age.

There is nothing discriminatory about statistics when it comes to safety and lives at hand. What study shows the safety level of pilots flying airliners into their elderly years? That is something that absolutely must be scrutinized before infinitely opening the flood gates in a system that promotes the pilots to stay.
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Rockie
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by Rockie »

Wright wrote:Have you ever flown with pilots who scare you, and wonder how they continually get pushed through the system? Would you like to fly with these same pilots continuing into their 70's?
If there's a pilot getting through the system who shouldn't I wouldn't want to fly with them regardless of their age. Each of us is individually tested regularly for medical fitness and competence. If there's a problem with those tests then fix the tests.

That way people who shouldn't be flying airplanes are weeded out whether they're 70, 60, 50, 40, or 30.
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by Ah_yeah »

vic777 wrote:
TheStig wrote: Should this now be a concern for pilots looking to fly beyond 60? Just think about the incentives to retire at 60 that could be negotiated in a back door attempt to force pilots to leave at 60 through re-negotiating the terms of the pension plan and/or GDIP.
Stig, short answer, NO. Just come up with some specifics and we'll show you how ridiculous, illegal and easy to shoot down they are. You cannot target anyone based on age. Please, just come up with one idea, I'll explain why it wont work. Don't forget, the ACPA Elite who come up with theses things, are all approaching Sixty.
You have all the answers Vic, how on earth do the lawyers stay employed. Seriously pal.
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Ah_yeah
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by Ah_yeah »

Rockie wrote:
Ah_yeah wrote:I'm just curious, how does Air Canada get away with language requirements and blocking. Ie. more senior flight attendants that lack a route language (not a legal requirement but a competitve one) are prevented from flying certain routes when they are available to newbies that are fluent ?
Well, if you're flying a plane load of Chinese people it makes a certain amount of sense to have Chinese speaking crew members on board don't you think? If someone thinks they're being unfairly treated because of their race in this case they're welcome to file a complaint and see how it turns out.
Ah_yeah wrote:but based on the current gov'ts handling of the essential service they think we are, I wouldn't be surprised if there is an unexpected compromise forced upon the parties.
I'm curious what similarities you find between labour disputes and human rights legislation?
Rockie, making sense is not why I posed the question. It's about the exclusion of certain employees from work for commercial/financial considerations. I can't reconcile the difference between pilots and fa's in this regard.
As far as your second question goes, my point was that it may not be a black and white issue when it's all said and done. Human rights may be an altruistic pursuit but the colour of reality is green $. I'm not talking about the plaintiffs either.
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by vic777 »

TheStig wrote: For example, Pilots premiums/payments into the Group Disability Insurance Program based on their age, this seems to be a standard insurance industry practice.
No problem, these Pilots could opt out of GDIP also, could they not? Also how about billing those who use GDIP most at a higher rate?
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Last edited by vic777 on Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by vic777 »

Ah_yeah wrote: You have all the answers Vic, how on earth do the lawyers stay employed. Seriously pal.
Ah_yeah, your questions can be answered by anyone.
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TheStig
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by TheStig »

vic777 wrote:
TheStig wrote: For example, Pilots premiums/payments into the Group Disability Insurance Program based on their age, this seems to be a standard insurance industry practice.
No problem, these Pilots could opt out of GDIP also, could they not? Also how about billing those who use GDIP most at a higher rate?
Right! GDIP could be broken down into funding groups, for example, 20 to 30 year olds pay for their own premiums, 30 to 40 could be another grouping, 40 to 50, 50 to 60, and say 60 plus. As things currently stand every bid there are a few pilots posted as retired from GDIP. However, when there is no longer any mandatory retirement at 60, why would a pilot on GDIP retire? 70% of $230,000 a year (say $160,000/year) certainly sounds better than retiring on $120,000/year pension. Except this well paid retirement is now being funded by their peers. So to prevent this loophole from being abused the 60 plus year old pilots would have to negotiate a mandatory retirement clause where by (after spending a certain amount of time on GDIP) a pilot over 60 was forced to retire!
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Rockie
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by Rockie »

[/quote]
Ah_yeah wrote:Rockie, making sense is not why I posed the question. It's about the exclusion of certain employees from work for commercial/financial considerations. I can't reconcile the difference between pilots and fa's in this regard.
In the case of linguistic requirements for certain flights it isn't a case of excluding someone but rather designating a specific requirement to enable communication with people on the plane. If people meet that requirement they will be awarded the flights in accordance with seniority. There is no violation of human rights there because it is a valid job requirement. There is no valid job requirement that says pilots must be no more than 60 years of age anywhere.
Ah_yeah wrote:As far as your second question goes, my point was that it may not be a black and white issue when it's all said and done. Human rights may be an altruistic pursuit but the colour of reality is green $. I'm not talking about the plaintiffs either.
I understand your point about the colour of green, but that doesn't give companies the power to change laws or flaunt the ones in place. Tax laws, environmental laws, criminal laws, municipal and regional bylaws, they all must be complied with or what we end up with is corporate anarchy. Human rights laws are arguably the most serious in a country like Canada, and they apply to every person and every company.

Mandatory retirement is illegal unless a company meets the required tests for establishing BFOR. Air Canada might be able to do that with age 65 when it comes to ICAO/Captains, but there are no ICAO limits on FO's. Meeting the test requirement for pilots under 65 is desperately wishful thinking.
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by vic777 »

TheStig wrote: So to prevent this loophole from being abused the 60 plus year old pilots would have to negotiate a mandatory retirement clause where by (after spending a certain amount of time on GDIP) a pilot over 60 was forced to retire!
I have no problem with something like this, but it is negotiated by ACPA, not the 60+ year old Pilots (you might have misspoke). And there should be some Actuarial input into the logic. ACPA has shown that they're not too swift at figuring "unintended consequences". The NWO of FlyPast60 will require rethinking of many aspects of our contract. Unfortunately the ACPA Elite, only being concerned about their own immediate advancement, has wasted a Golden Opportunity to score some of the Windfall Gains for the Pilot group.
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by Rockie »

vic777 wrote:
TheStig wrote: So to prevent this loophole from being abused the 60 plus year old pilots would have to negotiate a mandatory retirement clause where by (after spending a certain amount of time on GDIP) a pilot over 60 was forced to retire!
I have no problem with something like this, but it is negotiated by ACPA, not the 60+ year old Pilots (you might have misspoke). And there should be some Actuarial input into the logic. ACPA has shown that they're not too swift at figuring "unintended consequences". The NWO of FlyPast60 will require rethinking of many aspects of our contract. Unfortunately the ACPA Elite, only being concerned about their own immediate advancement, has wasted a Golden Opportunity to score some of the Windfall Gains for the Pilot group.
Be very careful about this one. Open that can of worms without proper preparation (as ACPA is wont to do) and you can forget age 60, the insurance companies will be pushing for age 55 or 50.
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TheStig
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Re: Can the illegal acts still be condoned?

Post by TheStig »

vic777 wrote:
TheStig wrote: So to prevent this loophole from being abused the 60 plus year old pilots would have to negotiate a mandatory retirement clause where by (after spending a certain amount of time on GDIP) a pilot over 60 was forced to retire!
I have no problem with something like this, but it is negotiated by ACPA, not the 60+ year old Pilots (you might have misspoke). And there should be some Actuarial input into the logic. ACPA has shown that they're not too swift at figuring "unintended consequences". The NWO of FlyPast60 will require rethinking of many aspects of our contract. Unfortunately the ACPA Elite, only being concerned about their own immediate advancement, has wasted a Golden Opportunity to score some of the Windfall Gains for the Pilot group.
So we can agree then that although mandatory retirement may be repealed, there will likely be steps taken in its implementation which do use reference to ones' age that are still very common and accepted practices that fall under the guise of collective bargaining.

Rockie, we share a lot of the same concerns as the pilot group has proven itself quiet capable of cutting off its nose to spite its face (eg. Allowing SkyRegional to start up). I'd suspect, however, that the majority of the membership does not welcome this change and will negotiate measures to attempt to make flying past age 59 unappealing.
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