Negotiations

[hsilgnepilot]

All things considered, not a good offer and I hope Jazz pilots realize that. Giving up quite a lot, to get what is still 8$/hr less than what non-unionized Porter was given, also still well behind Encore when you factor in the $850/mo allowance. For non year 1 FO, it works out to mostly a 20-22% raise for the rest of the pilot group.


AC has already shown they will do whatever they want in regards to “flow”, so loosening any language around “flow” is an absolutely horrific thing to vote “YES” to if your end goal is AC.

Of course there’ll be more information in the future, but given the union does not recommend it being ratified should speak volumes. There is absolutely a much better offer they’re willing to give.

[hithere]

Just a point of clarification, the only people affected by the reduction of flow from 60% to 30% are people not at Jazz yet

[truedude]

All things considered, not a good offer and I hope Jazz pilots realize that. Giving up quite a lot, to get what is still 8$/hr less than what non-unionized Porter was given, also still behind Encore when you factor in the $850/mo allowance. For non year 1 FO, it works out to mostly a 20-22% raise for the rest of the pilot group.


AC has already shown they will do whatever they want in regards to “flow”, so loosening any language around “flow” is an absolutely horrific thing to vote “YES” to if your end goal is AC.

Of course there’ll be more information in the future, but given the union does not recommend it being ratified should speak volumes. There is absolutely a much better offer they’re willing to give.

I think they beleive we should vote yes on this, but are also playing a long game. Again, if this fails to stop people from leaving, and does not give them the ability to fix staffing issues, then they will be back. And making the next jump will be easier for them to swallow if we are already half way there.

Remember, we are dealing with people, this is as much psychological as it is buisness.

[hsilgnepilot]

Just a point of clarification, the only people affected by the reduction of flow from 60% to 30% are people not at Jazz yet

Regardless, loosening language around “flow”, which was already such an important and sensitive topic doesn’t seem wise. AC has shown they’ll do whatever they want when it comes to “flow”, so loosening language, as opposed to strengthening it is a red flag.

[truedude]

Just a point of clarification, the only people affected by the reduction of flow from 60% to 30% are people not at Jazz yet

Regardless, loosening language around “flow”, which was already such an important and sensitive topic doesn’t seem wise. AC has shown they’ll do whatever they want when it comes to “flow”, so loosening language, as opposed to strengthening it is a red flag.

Then what does it matter? If you have a lot of time, you won't come to Jazz anyways. So you are going to come to Jazz because you either have little experience, in which case the 30% is a benefit to you. Or you will come to Jazz to stay. Either way, the flow is irrelevent at this point regarding this offer.

And again, if it fails to do what they want it to do, they will be forced to pay more later. But it will be easier for them to accept.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Just a point of clarification, the only people affected by the reduction of flow from 60% to 30% are people not at Jazz yet

Regardless, loosening language around “flow”, which was already such an important and sensitive topic doesn’t seem wise. AC has shown they’ll do whatever they want when it comes to “flow”, so loosening language, as opposed to strengthening it is a red flag.

Then what does it matter? If you have a lot of time, you won't come to Jazz anyways. So you are going to come to Jazz because you either have little experience, in which case the 30% is a benefit to you. Or you will come to Jazz to stay. Either way, the flow is irrelevent at this point regarding this offer.

And again, if it fails to do what they want it to do, they will be forced to pay more later. But it will be easier for them to accept.

Eliminate the meaningless flow for better pay. %30 May as well be 0%.

[hithere]

Currently It is arguably easier and quicker to get hired off the street to AC than flow from Jazz. The failure to meet the 60% obligation in 2022 is going to arbitration this fall. Regardless of the outcome, the company believes that starting new hires at an annual salary of $65,000 and 30% flow and 85/15% company/pilot benefit premium split will attract more experienced(ie Captain ready) Candidates than it was at $40,000 and 60% flow and 70/30 split. We will know the answer in a week and a half

[truedude]

Regardless, loosening language around “flow”, which was already such an important and sensitive topic doesn’t seem wise. AC has shown they’ll do whatever they want when it comes to “flow”, so loosening language, as opposed to strengthening it is a red flag.

Then what does it matter? If you have a lot of time, you won't come to Jazz anyways. So you are going to come to Jazz because you either have little experience, in which case the 30% is a benefit to you. Or you will come to Jazz to stay. Either way, the flow is irrelevent at this point regarding this offer.

And again, if it fails to do what they want it to do, they will be forced to pay more later. But it will be easier for them to accept.

Eliminate the meaningless flow for better pay. %30 May as well be 0%.

Game it out for me then. We vote no, then what happens?

[hsilgnepilot]

Just a point of clarification, the only people affected by the reduction of flow from 60% to 30% are people not at Jazz yet

Regardless, loosening language around “flow”, which was already such an important and sensitive topic doesn’t seem wise. AC has shown they’ll do whatever they want when it comes to “flow”, so loosening language, as opposed to strengthening it is a red flag.

Then what does it matter? If you have a lot of time, you won't come to Jazz anyways. So you are going to come to Jazz because you either have little experience, in which case the 30% is a benefit to you. Or you will come to Jazz to stay. Either way, the flow is irrelevent at this point regarding this offer.

And again, if it fails to do what they want it to do, they will be forced to pay more later. But it will be easier for them to accept.

I’m sure a lot of the people who came to Jazz for that reason would like to see stronger language on the subject rather than leniency. I came to Jazz in one of the first post-COVID new hire class in 2022, with fairly significant time, ATPL and 737 offers turned down because the “60% flow” was in writing. It was a mis step in my career so I cut my losses, and I’m no longer employed by Jazz, but if I was, I would definitely be looking for stronger flow language.

You guys deserve much better than what’s being presented, and there’s certainly much more to give. I get where you’re coming from when you say “they’ll be back if it doesn’t work” but the big wigs you’re dealing with are beyond irrational and very stubborn. I’m shocked they actually think this sort of deal will solve their issues.

[truedude]

Regardless, loosening language around “flow”, which was already such an important and sensitive topic doesn’t seem wise. AC has shown they’ll do whatever they want when it comes to “flow”, so loosening language, as opposed to strengthening it is a red flag.

Then what does it matter? If you have a lot of time, you won't come to Jazz anyways. So you are going to come to Jazz because you either have little experience, in which case the 30% is a benefit to you. Or you will come to Jazz to stay. Either way, the flow is irrelevent at this point regarding this offer.

And again, if it fails to do what they want it to do, they will be forced to pay more later. But it will be easier for them to accept.

I’m sure a lot of the people who came to Jazz for that reason would like to see stronger language on the subject rather than leniency. I came to Jazz in one of the first post-COVID new hire class in 2022, with fairly significant time, ATPL and 737 offers turned down because the “60% flow” was in writing. It was a mis step in my career so I cut my losses, and I’m no longer employed by Jazz, but if I was, I would definitely be looking for stronger flow language.

You guys deserve much better than what’s being presented, and there’s certainly much more to give. I get where you’re coming from when you say “they’ll be back if it doesn’t work” but the big wigs you’re dealing with are beyond irrational and very stubborn. I’m shocked they actually think this sort of deal will solve their issues.

And you listed my concern if we vote now, that the big wigs we are dealing with are beyond irrational and very stubborn. We have no idea what levels of survivability they are prepared to endure if we say no. And if in 6 months they need to add to the pile, it will be a lot easier for them to deal with it if they are already half way there.

[QKZXKV]

The MEC was very adamant we vote to agree to the last one. I remeber because I was at 2 road shows and they really said it was imperative that we ratify.

In this case, I don't read that in the email from the chairman. To think contrary to that is make-believe; it's complete fiction...

I don't have a horse in this race. If I did, I'd be a firm no vs my on the fence from 2019.

A few more $$$ doesn't help the commuter at the bottom of the list sit on reserve for months when they're a new hire. It sure as hell doesn't help them relocate to the most expensive Canadian cities either. What it does do is help the politicians scoop up more income tax.

$$ increase is nice on the sfc but it's only a beginning to a much bigger need.

[hsilgnepilot]

Then what does it matter? If you have a lot of time, you won't come to Jazz anyways. So you are going to come to Jazz because you either have little experience, in which case the 30% is a benefit to you. Or you will come to Jazz to stay. Either way, the flow is irrelevent at this point regarding this offer.

And again, if it fails to do what they want it to do, they will be forced to pay more later. But it will be easier for them to accept.

I’m sure a lot of the people who came to Jazz for that reason would like to see stronger language on the subject rather than leniency. I came to Jazz in one of the first post-COVID new hire class in 2022, with fairly significant time, ATPL and 737 offers turned down because the “60% flow” was in writing. It was a mis step in my career so I cut my losses, and I’m no longer employed by Jazz, but if I was, I would definitely be looking for stronger flow language.

You guys deserve much better than what’s being presented, and there’s certainly much more to give. I get where you’re coming from when you say “they’ll be back if it doesn’t work” but the big wigs you’re dealing with are beyond irrational and very stubborn. I’m shocked they actually think this sort of deal will solve their issues.

And you listed my concern if we vote now, that the big wigs we are dealing with are beyond irrational and very stubborn. We have no idea what levels of survivability they are prepared to endure if we say no. And if in 6 months they need to add to the pile, it will be a lot easier for them to deal with it if they are already half way there.

Agree to disagree. I see where you’re coming and it’s valid, but I think there’s much more to give and they’re prepared to do so, but don’t want the Jazz pilot group to think that’s the case.

[Mône]

If this deal doesn't fix the problem it will have to be addressed again later. Why not collect the money while they observe wether the problem is fixed or not?
It's a yes from me

[truedude]

If this deal doesn't fix the problem it will have to be addressed again later. Why not collect the money while they observe wether the problem is fixed or not?
It's a yes from me

Agreed!

[Outlaw58]

Vote no. The pay scale doesn’t even reach 20 year until the end of this decade. Pretty much a free pay increase for jazz to give. Plus the note on %30 hiring or any % hiring to ac is meaningless.

Didn't you resign? Why are you in this conversation?

58

[QKZXKV]

Vote no. The pay scale doesn’t even reach 20 year until the end of this decade. Pretty much a free pay increase for jazz to give. Plus the note on %30 hiring or any % hiring to ac is meaningless.

Didn't you resign? Why are you in this conversation?

58

Does that matter? This is a public forum..

[truedude]

Vote no. The pay scale doesn’t even reach 20 year until the end of this decade. Pretty much a free pay increase for jazz to give. Plus the note on %30 hiring or any % hiring to ac is meaningless.

Didn't you resign? Why are you in this conversation?

58

Does that matter? This is a public forum..

If he isn't with the company, and trying to sway a vote, then where the person actually works is important.

[hithere]

I find it odd that people that no longer work at Jazz and claim that leaving Jazz was the best thing they ever did, still feel the need to comment and tell us what to do. We’ve got it from here boys and girls, carry on

[canadian_aviator_4]

Every vote at every airline affects all other companies. A win for jazz is a win for everyone. Pattern bargaining. Plus a public forum. If you have any issues with me bring it up with the site admin.

[hithere]

Your bargaining realities, wherever you are, are different than ours. We are not even in a contract/wage opener, yet we have this proposal in front of us. Honestly, go away, and let the Jazz pilots decide on their own future. Thank-you

[futboler14]

Here we are. A pivotal moment is before the Jazz pilots to send a strong and decisive message, not only to Management, but to your industry peers. Ultimately we’re all in this together. The outcome of this vote WILL be used to open upcoming negotiations across the industry.

Don’t think for a second I’m sitting here as an AC pilot saying “sucks to be them”. I know full well that the outcome of this vote will play a factor in our upcoming negotiations.

Tough decisions have to be made. If it were me… I’d spend the next day or two updating my logbook, getting it signed, and send out feelers. When the vote deadline comes, vote no. Either:
1) It tell’s AC that you guys are serious and unified. You are professionals and need to be compensated as such. They scratch their heads and come back to the table, or, they just say screw it. Glad you updated your logbook right?
2) AC gets their way and a certain precedent is set. If a Jazz new hire now makes $64 an hr….. what do you think AC is going to try to reference as a starting point when sitting down to negotiate our new first year pay? 70? 74? You bet they will.

If things continue to turn sour, at least your eight days ahead of your colleagues by sending a message with your feet.

At the end of the day I think we can all agree this proposal isn’t as good as we had hoped for. And that’s unfortunate. But remember, AC’s offer doesn’t have to be good. It just has to be good enough.

Good luck with the vote. Truly. The ball is in your court.

[hithere]

Once again, vastly different bargaining realities. Pre COVID Jazz did 800 departures per day we are now at half that. Why? Because 220s are being used on many of what pre-covid were considered Jazz routes. Except they aren’t Jazz routes- they are AC routes because you guys own your flying. If Jazz pilots turn this down there is the possibility that we become irrelevant. Do you think AC will ever become irrelevant and close up shop? Of course not, so you will never have to “update your logbook” and throw away X years of dedication to your airline to start over. So it’s much more complicated than you suggest

[Optimus Primer]

Not a gamble I am prepared to take. They also have a line in the sand for how much they are prepared to give, and simply live with the consequences if it isn't accepted. I don't know where that threshold exists, but I know they have it.

It’s probably not at the first offer the company would make, but hey, life is a gamble as you said. Who knows… if you say no, maybe it’s worse, maybe it’s better. Mediocrity is how unions collect their dues.

This isn't the first offer they have made. They have made several, and all have been turned down by the union. If you want to bet on the next one being better, feel free. Not a bet I will take.

Like I said, AC has a line in the sand, and level of surviablity they are prepared to endure if we ask to much. I think this is pretty close. And if it doesn't work, they come back. But the one thing they can't do, is blame us for it not working.

Vote yes!

You were talking a lot about management being stupid and saying you'd happily stand back and watch the operation "burn to the ground." Now you are using the same fearmongering used during the last TA to get guys to vote yes. "Vote yes or face the wrath of AC." Pick a lane, dude. Jazz pilots voted yes to that heap of garbage 17 year deal to "secure the flying" and AC STILL outsourced Express flying.

What calamity do you think will happen if the membership votes no? What catastrophe occurred when the negotiating committee said no to all the lowball offers the past year? You want to give the company more breathing room for another lowball and the chance that they will come back with more in the near future? I'd say that's a riskier bet.

[canadian_aviator_4]

It’s probably not at the first offer the company would make, but hey, life is a gamble as you said. Who knows… if you say no, maybe it’s worse, maybe it’s better. Mediocrity is how unions collect their dues.

This isn't the first offer they have made. They have made several, and all have been turned down by the union. If you want to bet on the next one being better, feel free. Not a bet I will take.

Like I said, AC has a line in the sand, and level of surviablity they are prepared to endure if we ask to much. I think this is pretty close. And if it doesn't work, they come back. But the one thing they can't do, is blame us for it not working.

Vote yes!

You were talking a lot about management being stupid and saying you'd happily stand back and watch the operation "burn to the ground." Now you are using the same fearmongering used during the last TA to get guys to vote yes. "Vote yes or face the wrath of AC." Pick a lane, dude. Jazz pilots voted yes to that heap of garbage 17 year deal to "secure the flying" and AC STILL outsourced Express flying.

What calamity do you think will happen if the membership votes no? What catastrophe occurred when the negotiating committee said no to all the lowball offers the past year? You want to give the company more breathing room for another lowball and the chance that they will come back with more in the near future? I'd say that's a riskier bet.

Agreed

[truedude]

It’s probably not at the first offer the company would make, but hey, life is a gamble as you said. Who knows… if you say no, maybe it’s worse, maybe it’s better. Mediocrity is how unions collect their dues.

This isn't the first offer they have made. They have made several, and all have been turned down by the union. If you want to bet on the next one being better, feel free. Not a bet I will take.

Like I said, AC has a line in the sand, and level of surviablity they are prepared to endure if we ask to much. I think this is pretty close. And if it doesn't work, they come back. But the one thing they can't do, is blame us for it not working.

Vote yes!

You were talking a lot about management being stupid and saying you'd happily stand back and watch the operation "burn to the ground." Now you are using the same fearmongering used during the last TA to get guys to vote yes. "Vote yes or face the wrath of AC." Pick a lane, dude. Jazz pilots voted yes to that heap of garbage 17 year deal to "secure the flying" and AC STILL outsourced Express flying.

What calamity do you think will happen if the membership votes no? What catastrophe occurred when the negotiating committee said no to all the lowball offers the past year? You want to give the company more breathing room for another lowball and the chance that they will come back with more in the near future? I'd say that's a riskier bet.

It took a lot for AC to even admit there was a problem. It took a year of the union saying no. I don't know what clamity would take place. But I also don't want to find out. This puts money in our pockets. Would I like more? Sure. But this is where we are today. For a lot of F/Os it is a significant increase in pay, along with Jr Captains. And everyone else gets something to.

For me, it is a difference of about 1300 in my pocket, every month. That isn't a small amount of money. And not an amount I am prepared to just shoot down either. It is close to what I expected.

And if we want to use the U.S. regionals as our benchmark, it took several increment increases to get to where they are.