AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

[milhouse]

I don't see an attitude that thinks they're better, I see an attitude that doesn't acknowledge a reasonably good deal for them at the cost of the other guys.

And here is why YOU won the lottery in this unfair world: https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2020/10/18/ ... -canada-1 « Ottawa ready to buy parts of AC »

TVA is quite possibly the least reliable news source in Canada

[Thorjones]

Posting this in hopes of making this thread's first post on the 69th page


Nice.


Edit: Aww damn it

[mbav8r]

I’ll try
Edit: dang it!

[mbav8r]

But really, I hope ALPA infiltrates ACPA and I get on the list wayyyy above sharklaser!

[TFTMB heavy]

I don't see an attitude that thinks they're better, I see an attitude that doesn't acknowledge a reasonably good deal for them at the cost of the other guys.

It's not our deal, but it only has a negative affect on one group... just is what it is... I don't have to like it though.

This is the part that grinds my gears, when AC pilots say they will loose so much in this deal and it's not good for them, only for TS pilots. Let's go back to pre-pandemic, you were saying it back then. Shuffling 650 pilots in a list of 4500 when they come with tails, routes, slots and pax has minimal impact. Who knows what the final outcome would have been on both groups once the dust settles but certainly not a huge setback for AC pilots. TS pilots were not marching in to take your seats and upgrades. We were all established within our own list with our own growth.

So was that situation a good one for TS pilots? From a stability point of view, absolutely. But then again, nobody knows if TS would have pulled thru the slump, nobody. Personally the only thing I envy from my friends at AC is their DB pension.

Post-pandemic is a different scenario entirely. My opinion is that AC needs TS more than they did pre-pandemic to get out of this mess and potentially double the recovery rate on the Sun and TA markets. Does TS need AC? Pretty clear that we do, just to see the day where we can operate flights with decent loads, quarantine is killing us.

Will the merging of the two unions be messier now, most likely. But I think both groups will get it pretty bad if we fight each other and management gets what they want from arbitration.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Fact is the combined airline will be smaller than were they seperate. Transat is now bringing even fewer fins than they were pre-pandemic and those will simply replace older 320s that will now leave the AC fleet. Rouseau already said that. So there won't be more fins. And which slot limited airports does Transat have rights to that AC doesn't?

There is no growth here. Just the elimination of a competitor. AC was already going to be smaller post-pandemic, and now we have more people looking for seats.

I know you liked your deal at Transat, that's good, I like my deal here too. I like and respect you and your colleagues, and when you come here that's fine, it's not personal, it's not against you, it's just a shitty outcome for a bunch of AC guys that have already lost seniority/upgrades/job/etc with this pandemic and are now going to be pushed down the list by guys coming from an airline that is barely flying as is.

I look forward to being proven wrong and seeing a ton of growth and a pilot requirement bid for 6000 pilots after the merger and pandemic settles.

Certainly not as good a deal post pandemic for AC pilots but could also be devastating for TS when AC reveals the business plan.

I don't get replacing older 320s with 321LR, not the same scope of mission? TS has routes just for those LRs on the TA in small markets and also bigger ones to support wide bodies where frequency can be increased. I never said we went to slot limited airports, just that we have a passenger base and if AC wants to profit from it they need the TS brand. That brand comes with planes and pilots.

Both sides have lost a lot with this pandemic. We just lost a bunch of flying to AC, all domestic routes are gone and pax put on AC. Would this have happened without the arrangement agreement?

[JoeyBarton]

This is the part that grinds my gears, when AC pilots say they will loose so much in this deal and it's not good for them, only for TS pilots. Let's go back to pre-pandemic, you were saying it back then. Shuffling 650 pilots in a list of 4500 when they come with tails, routes, slots and pax has minimal impact. Who knows what the final outcome would have been on both groups once the dust settles but certainly not a huge setback for AC pilots. TS pilots were not marching in to take your seats and upgrades. We were all established within our own list with our own growth.

So was that situation a good one for TS pilots? From a stability point of view, absolutely. But then again, nobody knows if TS would have pulled thru the slump, nobody. Personally the only thing I envy from my friends at AC is their DB pension.

Post-pandemic is a different scenario entirely. My opinion is that AC needs TS more than they did pre-pandemic to get out of this mess and potentially double the recovery rate on the Sun and TA markets. Does TS need AC? Pretty clear that we do, just to see the day where we can operate flights with decent loads, quarantine is killing us.

Will the merging of the two unions be messier now, most likely. But I think both groups will get it pretty bad if we fight each other and management gets what they want from arbitration.

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Fact is the combined airline will be smaller than were they seperate. Transat is now bringing even fewer fins than they were pre-pandemic and those will simply replace older 320s that will now leave the AC fleet. Rouseau already said that. So there won't be more fins. And which slot limited airports does Transat have rights to that AC doesn't?

There is no growth here. Just the elimination of a competitor. AC was already going to be smaller post-pandemic, and now we have more people looking for seats.

I know you liked your deal at Transat, that's good, I like my deal here too. I like and respect you and your colleagues, and when you come here that's fine, it's not personal, it's not against you, it's just a shitty outcome for a bunch of AC guys that have already lost seniority/upgrades/job/etc with this pandemic and are now going to be pushed down the list by guys coming from an airline that is barely flying as is.

I look forward to being proven wrong and seeing a ton of growth and a pilot requirement bid for 6000 pilots after the merger and pandemic settles.

Certainly not as good a deal post pandemic for AC pilots but could also be devastating for TS when AC reveals the business plan.

I don't get replacing older 320s with 321LR, not the same scope of mission? TS has routes just for those LRs on the TA in small markets and also bigger ones to support wide bodies where frequency can be increased. I never said we went to slot limited airports, just that we have a passenger base and if AC wants to profit from it they need the TS brand. That brand comes with planes and pilots.

Both sides have lost a lot with this pandemic. We just lost a bunch of flying to AC, all domestic routes are gone and pax put on AC. Would this have happened without the arrangement agreement?

Is there any proof to this? I mean are the domestic routes cut and pax flown on ac metal? Are passengers notified of it?
Seems to be pure speculation at this point isn't it?
This is only an agreement not an acquisition yet. Isn't there any scope provision in Transat CBA that requires transat pax and business to be flown on transat metal?

[FL320]

We got a memo from the union about it; and all domestic flights suddenly showed 0 pax in our system although they were showing 75% full. No more info.

[JoeyBarton]

We got a memo from the union about it; and all domestic flights suddenly showed 0 pax in our system although they were showing 75% full. No more info.

Hence my question? Is there any provision in the CBA pertaining to transat passengers flown on transat metal?

[skypirate88]

We got a memo from the union about it; and all domestic flights suddenly showed 0 pax in our system although they were showing 75% full. No more info.

Hence my question? Is there any provision in the CBA pertaining to transat passengers flown on transat metal?

Welcome to Air Canada. You'll quickly learn what is written in a collective agreement is little more than a suggestion that the corp will follow only if it suits.

[TFTMB heavy]

We got a memo from the union about it; and all domestic flights suddenly showed 0 pax in our system although they were showing 75% full. No more info.

Hence my question? Is there any provision in the CBA pertaining to transat passengers flown on transat metal?

A percentage of all flights sold by TS have to be flow by Air Transat pilots. THen a percentage of that have to be on wide bodies

[Air.Field]

Posting this in hopes of making this thread's first post on the 69th page


Nice.


Edit: Aww damn it

I’ll try
Edit: dang it!

This is how it's done ladies

[727driver]

Saying Transat’s aircraft Is part of the brand is like saying the logistics division of Walmart is part of its brand. The Transat brand is all about the destination and price and has very little to do about the seat you sit in to get you there. Economies of scale will determine what and how much of the transport division of Transat survives. People don’t care about the colour of the tail of the aircraft they are flying to get to their vacation. The use of WestJet and Canjet narrow bodies by Transat proved that theory. Red, blue, black, leaf, star do you really think the majority of passengers care? Safety, reliability, trust, comfort, service and value is what counts and is the brand, not paint or uniforms. IMHO

[TFTMB heavy]

Saying Transat’s aircraft Is part of the brand is like saying the logistics division of Walmart is part of its brand. The Transat brand is all about the destination and price and has very little to do about the seat you sit in to get you there. Economies of scale will determine what and how much of the transport division of Transat survives. People don’t care about the colour of the tail of the aircraft they are flying to get to their vacation. The use of WestJet and Canjet narrow bodies by Transat proved that theory. Red, blue, black, leaf, star do you really think the majority of passengers care? Safety, reliability, trust, comfort, service and value is what counts and is the brand, not paint or uniforms. IMHO

Surveys have show that Air Transat is the most recognized name in the whole group. People will not all of a sudden go book on AC if all the TS outlets are gone. AC admitted that the TS brand does better than AC Vacations.

[altiplano]

What is the wording on the percentage of Transat flying conducted by Air Transat in your scope?

As was pointed out also, a not insignificant part of Transat AT flying was done by other airlines, not Air Transat... Westjet, Canjet, German wet leases, TFWs, etc... how does that work?

I'm also curious, surveys say Transat is the most recognized brand? Where? In Quebec? Which surveys are those? Most people in the rest of Canada, even France, don't know what Air Transat is when they look to make travel plans.

[rudder]

I know it will please some of you here but my thoughts are for our colleagues (pilots) that are about to lose their job -again!- before Christmas; thanks to Air Canada (my own conclusion). Our domestic flights were more than 75% full...how can AT justify the removal of the domestic flying if it’s not an AC’s request? (No need to thank us for the extra job for your group, merry Christmas)

It doesn’t please me that there might be more furloughs.

But Rudder is correct. Corporate is making pragmatic decisions. Competing with yourself makes no sense. When your losing 550M a month combined? They have no choice.

Still it sucks. My condolences. The same as to the AC furloughs.

Has there been an announcement on this?

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5768318

[TFTMB heavy]

What is the wording on the percentage of Transat flying conducted by Air Transat in your scope?

As was pointed out also, a not insignificant part of Transat AT flying was done by other airlines, not Air Transat... Westjet, Canjet, German wet leases, TFWs, etc... how does that work?

I'm also curious, surveys say Transat is the most recognized brand? Where? In Quebec? Which surveys are those? Most people in the rest of Canada, even France, don't know what Air Transat is when they look to make travel plans.

If i remember correctly scope came in 2010, 2015 a no-layoff clause was negotiated if they had wet-leases. The scope has always been respected when they had the wet leases, so no need to get into the language details. Now that we have a very small volume of flights they might be flirting with the threshold but I don't have the numbers.

I said most recognized brand in the group, as in the TS group. Air Transat, of all the business units in the TS group is what people mostly know. How do you know what our customers recognize, or Canadians for that matter? This info is from our management, I didn't dig into the survey details, nor do I care to do so.

TS has business units in Europe selling directly to Europeans, Air Transat is very well know in markets they have been serving for years.

Anyways, got my second layoff notice of 2020 along with about 120 other Air Transat colleagues so I'm going to stay away from this place for a while. See you on the other side of this mess.

[altiplano]

What is the wording on the percentage of Transat flying conducted by Air Transat in your scope?

As was pointed out also, a not insignificant part of Transat AT flying was done by other airlines, not Air Transat... Westjet, Canjet, German wet leases, TFWs, etc... how does that work?

I'm also curious, surveys say Transat is the most recognized brand? Where? In Quebec? Which surveys are those? Most people in the rest of Canada, even France, don't know what Air Transat is when they look to make travel plans.

If i remember correctly scope came in 2010, 2015 a no-layoff clause was negotiated if they had wet-leases. The scope has always been respected when they had the wet leases, so no need to get into the language details. Now that we have a very small volume of flights they might be flirting with the threshold but I don't have the numbers.

I said most recognized brand in the group, as in the TS group. Air Transat, of all the business units in the TS group is what people mostly know. How do you know what our customers recognize, or Canadians for that matter? This info is from our management, I didn't dig into the survey details, nor do I care to do so.

TS has business units in Europe selling directly to Europeans, Air Transat is very well know in markets they have been serving for years.

Anyways, got my second layoff notice of 2020 along with about 120 other Air Transat colleagues so I'm going to stay away from this place for a while. See you on the other side of this mess.

I misunderstood what you meant with "group", I thought you meant travel/vacation carriers in general. I think most people think they are flying Air Transat when they book with Transat.
Why would they think to recognize it is another outfit than the one they booked on?

Sorry to hear about your notice. Indeed, what a mess this is...

[JoeyBarton]

What is the wording on the percentage of Transat flying conducted by Air Transat in your scope?

As was pointed out also, a not insignificant part of Transat AT flying was done by other airlines, not Air Transat... Westjet, Canjet, German wet leases, TFWs, etc... how does that work?

I'm also curious, surveys say Transat is the most recognized brand? Where? In Quebec? Which surveys are those? Most people in the rest of Canada, even France, don't know what Air Transat is when they look to make travel plans.

If i remember correctly scope came in 2010, 2015 a no-layoff clause was negotiated if they had wet-leases. The scope has always been respected when they had the wet leases, so no need to get into the language details. Now that we have a very small volume of flights they might be flirting with the threshold but I don't have the numbers.

I said most recognized brand in the group, as in the TS group. Air Transat, of all the business units in the TS group is what people mostly know. How do you know what our customers recognize, or Canadians for that matter? This info is from our management, I didn't dig into the survey details, nor do I care to do so.

TS has business units in Europe selling directly to Europeans, Air Transat is very well know in markets they have been serving for years.

Anyways, got my second layoff notice of 2020 along with about 120 other Air Transat colleagues so I'm going to stay away from this place for a while. See you on the other side of this mess.

Sorry to hear...cews or furlough?

[tintin42]

What is the wording on the percentage of Transat flying conducted by Air Transat in your scope?

As was pointed out also, a not insignificant part of Transat AT flying was done by other airlines, not Air Transat... Westjet, Canjet, German wet leases, TFWs, etc... how does that work?

I'm also curious, surveys say Transat is the most recognized brand? Where? In Quebec? Which surveys are those? Most people in the rest of Canada, even France, don't know what Air Transat is when they look to make travel plans.

If i remember correctly scope came in 2010, 2015 a no-layoff clause was negotiated if they had wet-leases. The scope has always been respected when they had the wet leases, so no need to get into the language details. Now that we have a very small volume of flights they might be flirting with the threshold but I don't have the numbers.

I said most recognized brand in the group, as in the TS group. Air Transat, of all the business units in the TS group is what people mostly know. How do you know what our customers recognize, or Canadians for that matter? This info is from our management, I didn't dig into the survey details, nor do I care to do so.

TS has business units in Europe selling directly to Europeans, Air Transat is very well know in markets they have been serving for years.

Anyways, got my second layoff notice of 2020 along with about 120 other Air Transat colleagues so I'm going to stay away from this place for a while. See you on the other side of this mess.

Sorry to hear...cews or furlough?

We can choose which one we take.

[FL320]

What is the wording on the percentage of Transat flying conducted by Air Transat in your scope?

As was pointed out also, a not insignificant part of Transat AT flying was done by other airlines, not Air Transat... Westjet, Canjet, German wet leases, TFWs, etc... how does that work?

I'm also curious, surveys say Transat is the most recognized brand? Where? In Quebec? Which surveys are those? Most people in the rest of Canada, even France, don't know what Air Transat is when they look to make travel plans.

If i remember correctly scope came in 2010, 2015 a no-layoff clause was negotiated if they had wet-leases. The scope has always been respected when they had the wet leases, so no need to get into the language details. Now that we have a very small volume of flights they might be flirting with the threshold but I don't have the numbers.

I said most recognized brand in the group, as in the TS group. Air Transat, of all the business units in the TS group is what people mostly know. How do you know what our customers recognize, or Canadians for that matter? This info is from our management, I didn't dig into the survey details, nor do I care to do so.

TS has business units in Europe selling directly to Europeans, Air Transat is very well know in markets they have been serving for years.

Anyways, got my second layoff notice of 2020 along with about 120 other Air Transat colleagues so I'm going to stay away from this place for a while. See you on the other side of this mess.

Sorry to hear...cews or furlough?

100 pilots back on CEWS (cews @ 573$ gross per week until dec 19th for now).
(Altiplano: I think we can agree that AC will be a pretty good deal for AT’s remaining employees)

[Fanblade]

Anyways, got my second layoff notice of 2020 along with about 120 other Air Transat colleagues so I'm going to stay away from this place for a while. See you on the other side of this mess.

Very sorry to hear that about you and your colleagues TFTMB. Spring. This spring things will start to turn the corner.

[Splash]

EU approval delayed until January 8th.

https://www.reuters.com/article/transat ... SL1N2HS1KB

[termerair]

Another delay in the EU decision...

Wondering what kinds of concessions have been offered...

Air Canada seeks to address EU concerns on Transat purchase

Reuters - Mise à jour : il y a 5 heures
BRUSSELS, Nov 26 (Reuters) - Air Canada has offered concessions related to its proposed acquisition of Canadian tour operator Transat to address EU antitrust concerns, a European Commission filing showed on Thursday.

The Commission, which oversees competition policy in the 27-nation European Union, said the commitments had been submitted on Nov. 25. As a result it, it has extended the deadline for its decision by three weeks to Jan. 29.

The Commission opened an investigation in May on concerns that the deal could push up prices and reduce choice for flights between Europe and Canada.

Air Canada last month cut its offer price for Transat by nearly 75% to about C$188.7 million ($145.13 million) because of the COVID-19 impact on travel demand. ($1 = 1.3002 Canadian dollars) (Reporting by Philip Blenkinsop, editing by Marine Strauss)

[hamstandard]

100 pilots back on CEWS (cews @ 573$ gross per week until dec 19th for now).

Sorry to hear that. I remember they started hiring last fall(if I remember correctly). How many did they end up hiring before Covid hit the industry?

[termerair]

Sorry to hear that. I remember they started hiring last fall(if I remember correctly). How many did they end up hiring before Covid hit the industry?

Not sure how many they hired last fall... However what i do know is that the last guy on the seniority list (except for a few management ppl who remain in place) is showing a DOH in may 1999... That was last century!!!