True North wrote:
I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is; WJ pilots work a maximum of 16 days per month and get paid for XX hours per month. I'm not sure what XX is (75? 80? 85?) but it doesn't matter, it amounts to a min guarantee. If you only flew one hour per day you would work for 16 days and acquire 16 hours but still get paid for XX hours. 16 days divided by whatever you get for flying XX hours equals your min guarantee for a day, whether you are sitting in a hotel or at the controls. So, if you spend 24+ hours in a hotel it becomes one of the 16 days worked and you get paid. To really make it simple for you, If you flew to destination on your first day and broke down and spent the next 15 days in a hotel you'd still get paid for flying 16 days, yes?
Of course I'm sure none of this is an issue if the 37 hour layover is in Mexico or Hawaii. It's only an issue if it's in Fort Mac (no offence to anyone from Fort Mac ).
Everything you say here is technically correct but only part of the story.
The situation you outline is like running into yourself having breakfast, it's highly improbable. Not impossible, but improbable. yes.
The more probable situation is this:
You have a minimum guarantee of XX hours per month (not per day) but you tend to be scheduled to XX+3 or 4. Good news, you won't get paid the minimum. Yay. So far, so good. Now, you are scheduled to XX+4 (let's say for ease of argument) and you complete those hours in 13 days... but you are still going to work 16 days because you are going to sit in YQX for 52 hours and YEG for 36 hours (as an example). So, you could have been finished in 13 days of scheduled work, been available for Overtime to help the company out with any shortages or enjoying the company of your family, getting things done around the house that can't be done when you are on the road or just catching up on some missed sleep... but instead you are sitting in a hotel room and getting paid... about $3/hour perdiems.
Now, if I understand the point the minimum daily credit guys are trying to make, it's that those 3 days of sitting would be revenue days instead of none revenue days. That said, you are correct that there is a minimum monthly credit and if you were lucky enough to be scheduled under the minimum you would be topped up to the minimum... and technically, that would mean paid days of sitting. It's just that in practice, this doesn't really happen for a variety of reasons.
This is what those union busters need to understand...
If you think WJ Managment isn't smart enough to see that a MIN Guarantee means more $$$ for the pilots, you need to give your head a shake.
Working 16 days a month with long duty days is not a good thing... it can be better...don't kid yourself.
With the proper min guarantees the company will quickly be motivated to sharpen up their efficiency and ultimately equate to either more time at home or more $$$
Mach 1 put it pretty eloquently. At least when Realitychex chimes in he has some clout in this field. I could be wrong but my impression is True North is just a fanboy. Which is just sad.
I suppose with a seniority system in place, my 5% placing in YYZ should have me working fewer than 16 days per month, depending on what the NPA brings. I'm planning on MBJ turns on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
And speaking of seniority, how will ALPA's 60 year old DOH policy affect current and former Encore pilots flowing to WJ? I guess we can agree that at the very least, current Encore pilots will flow to the BOTL at WJ?
Certainly once the rumored YYC and YVR base reductions happen in conjunction with the ULCC and WB programs, seniority will play an important role for those trying to avoid becoming a commuter.
I didn't read all 7 pages so bare with me if I repeat someone else's thoughts...WRT to ULCC, its generally thought (even among the encore pilots I've spoken to) don't want a B scale. Doesn't matter whats painted on the tail, how many people may be behind me - its the same WAWCON. Thats how everyone I'm talking to feels, so if theres any decline offered in a vote, it will get shot down. The pilot shortage is on its way, its time to start acting like the skilled, in demand professionals we are.
Westjet was, and still is a great place to work. Its in a transition right now, but IMHO calmer days ahead.
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Last edited by KAG on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
NewCommercialPilot wrote:And speaking of seniority, how will ALPA's 60 year old DOH policy affect current and former Encore pilots flowing to WJ? I guess we can agree that at the very least, current Encore pilots will flow to the BOTL at WJ?
Seniority policy is a frame work but with flow through it's whatever you negotiate in your contract. Want DOH than fine. Want BOTL go nuts. Remember, unions get what they negotiate and negotiate want the membership wants.
NewCommercialPilot wrote:And speaking of seniority, how will ALPA's 60 year old DOH policy affect current and former Encore pilots flowing to WJ? I guess we can agree that at the very least, current Encore pilots will flow to the BOTL at WJ?
That is a separate issue having nothing to do with WJ's ULCC. By the way.... which account does your computer default to when you sign in? Is it annoying deciding to choose which one to post with?
NewCommercialPilot wrote:And speaking of seniority, how will ALPA's 60 year old DOH policy affect current and former Encore pilots flowing to WJ? I guess we can agree that at the very least, current Encore pilots will flow to the BOTL at WJ?
That is a separate issue having nothing to do with WJ's ULCC. By the way.... which account does your computer default to when you sign in? Is it annoying deciding to choose which one to post with?
I think Encore is very much part of the discussion of WJ ULCC, if the WJ Pilots say no thanks and are also part of ALPA, the way Encore seniority is handled may very well be how they respond to WJs request for them to "flow" to the ULCC.
It's called whipsaw and completely what's happening here, as was predicted about three years ago!
NewCommercialPilot wrote:And speaking of seniority, how will ALPA's 60 year old DOH policy affect current and former Encore pilots flowing to WJ? I guess we can agree that at the very least, current Encore pilots will flow to the BOTL at WJ?
That is a separate issue having nothing to do with WJ's ULCC. By the way.... which account does your computer default to when you sign in? Is it annoying deciding to choose which one to post with?
Ya didnt realize who I was talking to until you posted this. Got it now, thanks.
You still haven't explained how you've been working at WJ for 14 years, yet posted as a newbie in December...
JS is speaking to himself and hoping that everyone else listens. Multiple login IDs and perhaps matching personalities, but the inane presentation simply serves to create doubt based upon straw-man arguments and unfounded positions. It's easier to confuse others and perhaps plant seeds of doubt this way. Regardless, JS's contributions here are......strange to say the least and the manner by which he is contributing serves only to reinforce the opinion of many that he is a nice enough guy but he marches to a different drummer (multiple drummers now).
NewCommercialPilot, I am fairly sure all of your questions can be answered by RottenApple quite quickly. Sit down and have a coffee together, it would seem that you two will get along like two of the exact same peas in/from the exact same pod.
KAG wrote:I didn't read all 7 pages so bare with me if I repeat someone else's thoughts...WRT to ULCC, its generally thought (even among the encore pilots I've spoken to) don't want a B scale. Doesn't matter whats painted on the tail, how many people may be behind me - its the same WAWCON. Thats how everyone I'm talking to feels, so if theres any decline offered in a vote, it will get shot down. The pilot shortage is on its way, its time to start acting like the skilled, in demand professionals we are.
Westjet was, and still is a great place to work. Its in a transition right now, but IMHO calmer days ahead.
We have a better say in how Encore falls into the fold with one list and one group under the WJPA. If you want to divide our group, fine. We will be conquered, mostly by our own doing. Vote ALPA and it's death by cannabilism. Meanwhile you pay for the most expensive magazine subscription of your life.
Question for the WJ folk in regards to the one list. Is the one list more important to you than fellow WJ pilots? I am specifically talking about the pilots hired into mainline after the creation of Encore. The ones who wait behind those not yet on property (upgrades). Or do you consider Enocre pilots already on property? Or do you even care because you're senior to both?
JS need not reply with any number of your accounts. Your position is already clear.
atphat wrote:Question for the WJ folk in regards to the one list. Is the one list more important to you than fellow WJ pilots? I am specifically talking about the pilots hired into mainline after the creation of Encore. The ones who wait behind those not yet on property (upgrades). Or do you consider Enocre pilots already on property? Or do you even care because you're senior to both?
JS need not reply with any number of your accounts. Your position is already clear.
And this is the conflict that awaits us. Much like the seniority issue. Pilots may agree to one set of work conditions in order to secure employment here, but as soon as a union CBA brings with it a chance to vastly improve their quality of life at the expense of their fellow pilots, there will be a stampede of those willing to do so.
A merger down the road would be a nightmare if the ALPA President approved a non-DOH seniority list. That is why he won't approve it. That, and a lawsuit from OTS pilots against ALPA for violating it's constitutional duty to follow the DOH policy which has been in effect for 60 years.
The ULCC may eventually be populated solely by ex-Encore pilots torpedoed by ALPA policy on DOH (at mainline) and seniority.
NewCommercialPilot wrote:
A merger down the road would be a nightmare if the ALPA President approved a non-DOH seniority list. That is why he won't approve it. That, and a lawsuit from OTS pilots against ALPA for violating it's constitutional duty to follow the DOH policy which has been in effect for 60 years.
The ULCC may eventually be populated solely by ex-Encore pilots torpedoed by ALPA policy on DOH (at mainline) and seniority.
You could not be more wrong in trying to apply 'policy' in the fashion that you are to try to create conflict where none exists.
The ALPA policy on constructing a local pilot seniority list is rooted in DOH to prevent historical instances where some companies try to generate arbitrary lists which may favour 'friends of management' or other crazy deals. It certainly is not intended to displace existing agreements in place that are supported by the pilots that have just opted for ALPA representation. Logically, such arrangements would be preserved in the CBA if supported by the majority.
And insofar as a future merger is concerned - most pilot seniority lists that are a result of an seniority integration arbitration are no longer DOH based. So DOH is a factor but just one of many. A review of the current ALPA Merger Policy will bear this out as will the arbitrated decisions generated within the last 5 years under that policy.
True North wrote:
I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is; WJ pilots work a maximum of 16 days per month and get paid for XX hours per month. I'm not sure what XX is (75? 80? 85?) but it doesn't matter, it amounts to a min guarantee. If you only flew one hour per day you would work for 16 days and acquire 16 hours but still get paid for XX hours. 16 days divided by whatever you get for flying XX hours equals your min guarantee for a day, whether you are sitting in a hotel or at the controls. So, if you spend 24+ hours in a hotel it becomes one of the 16 days worked and you get paid. To really make it simple for you, If you flew to destination on your first day and broke down and spent the next 15 days in a hotel you'd still get paid for flying 16 days, yes?
Of course I'm sure none of this is an issue if the 37 hour layover is in Mexico or Hawaii. It's only an issue if it's in Fort Mac (no offence to anyone from Fort Mac ).
I am just finishing a 4 day trip. Not a great trip but pay will be 21.5 hours. Hard time flying for those 4 days is just 12 hours. Absent a daily guarantee system, I would have to fly 9.5 more hard hours to get in to the blocking window. That would be 2 extra work days.
I would rather fly 21.5 hard hours in 4 days, but that is not what I was assigned. However, that inefficiency was not deducted from my personal time due to min daily credit, duty rig, trip rig protections.
If you would prefer to work 16 days every month flying 80 hard hours for your 80 hours of pay that is up to you. I would rather get it done in less days and am not interested in subsidizing the inefficient assignment of crews.
WJ should not need the threat of unionization to move closer to industry norms for WAWCON. But it looks like the opportunity for management and the WJPA to act has passed and the pilots will take matters in to their own hands as is their legal right to do.
I suspect that not every WJ pilot is obsessed with their T4 and are looking for a better balance between income and lifestyle. We will find out soon enough.
I suspect that not every WJ pilot is obsessed with their T4 and are looking for a better balance between income and lifestyle. We will find out soon enough.
OK, so you, a Jazz pilot, have distilled the issue down to pay versus lifestyle. Good to know. Yet, what of those who want seniority for monthly bidding, vacation, and standby travel. Where do they fit into your bifurcated world? Ditto for those OTS pilots looking to climb 300+ numbers up a list, into which of those two categories do they fall?
Rotten Apple #1 wrote:
Yet, what of those who want seniority for monthly bidding, vacation, and standby travel. Where do they fit into your bifurcated world? Ditto for those OTS pilots looking to climb 300+ numbers up a list, into which of those two categories do they fall?
Seniority for monthly bidding and vacation are lifestyle issues. So one can presume that whether the group choose seniority based or socialized bidding will be a function of the bargaining survey. As for negotiating standby travel rules - I wish you luck. Seldom found in any CBA.
Same goes for your seniority list. WJ pilots should decide. It is not up to the 300. If the majority support status quo and the company has no objections, then so be it.
True North wrote:
I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is; WJ pilots work a maximum of 16 days per month and get paid for XX hours per month. I'm not sure what XX is (75? 80? 85?) but it doesn't matter, it amounts to a min guarantee. If you only flew one hour per day you would work for 16 days and acquire 16 hours but still get paid for XX hours. 16 days divided by whatever you get for flying XX hours equals your min guarantee for a day, whether you are sitting in a hotel or at the controls. So, if you spend 24+ hours in a hotel it becomes one of the 16 days worked and you get paid. To really make it simple for you, If you flew to destination on your first day and broke down and spent the next 15 days in a hotel you'd still get paid for flying 16 days, yes?
Of course I'm sure none of this is an issue if the 37 hour layover is in Mexico or Hawaii. It's only an issue if it's in Fort Mac (no offence to anyone from Fort Mac ).
I am just finishing a 4 day trip. Not a great trip but pay will be 21.5 hours. Hard time flying for those 4 days is just 12 hours. Absent a daily guarantee system, I would have to fly 9.5 more hard hours to get in to the blocking window. That would be 2 extra work days.
I would rather fly 21.5 hard hours in 4 days, but that is not what I was assigned. However, that inefficiency was not deducted from my personal time due to min daily credit, duty rig, trip rig protections.
If you would prefer to work 16 days every month flying 80 hard hours for your 80 hours of pay that is up to you. I would rather get it done in less days and am not interested in subsidizing the inefficient assignment of crews.
WJ should not need the threat of unionization to move closer to industry norms for WAWCON. But it looks like the opportunity for management and the WJPA to act has passed and the pilots will take matters in to their own hands as is their legal right to do.
I suspect that not every WJ pilot is obsessed with their T4 and are looking for a better balance between income and lifestyle. We will find out soon enough.
You make a lot of assumptions.
First off, there are plenty of WestJet pilots flying less than 16 days a month. I recently spoke with one who had just finished an 11 day month so the opportunities are there. Some months it might work out, some not. That's socialized bidding.
There have been plenty of dumb statements made in this thread, some outright lies too, but this statement of yours takes the prize for the dumbest, "That is why pilots sign union cards. Because their employer calculates where they can be inefficient but it costs them nothing. They download the problem on to the pilot at the cost of quality time at home."
Are you seriously trying to suggest that airlines intentionally make inefficient crew schedules and that there is no cost in that inefficiency? Airline management would love to have all crews end up at their home base every night and save a bundle in hotel costs but that's not reality. To suggest that joining ALPA will magically solve all the percieved crew scheduling issues at WestJet, or any company for that matter, is delusional.
True North wrote:
Are you seriously trying to suggest that airlines intentionally make inefficient crew schedules and that there is no cost in that inefficiency? Airline management would love to have all crews end up at their home base every night and save a bundle in hotel costs but that's not reality. To suggest that joining ALPA will magically solve all the percieved crew scheduling issues at WestJet, or any company for that matter, is delusional.
Do not confuse cost inefficiency with crew inefficiency.
If your system is that the last day of a multi-day trip is a 1 hour flight at 1 hour pay then the company will score that as 100% cost effective (as is an 8 hour flying day for 8 hours pay). But a 1 hour work/pay day is less Crew efficient than an 8 hour work/pay day.
As for ALPA being a panacea for what ails any pilot group I agree - ALPA will not solve your problems. ALPA provides resources. It is up to pilots to pick their representatives, committees, and set their own bargaining objectives. And since you cannot have everything, your group will have to set priorities.
It is obvious you are a divided group. Last time, WJ pilots supporting ALPA narrowly lost. Perhaps this time it will be a narrow victory. Either way, being a divided group will not be helpful to making change happen.
True North wrote:
Are you seriously trying to suggest that airlines intentionally make inefficient crew schedules and that there is no cost in that inefficiency? Airline management would love to have all crews end up at their home base every night and save a bundle in hotel costs but that's not reality. To suggest that joining ALPA will magically solve all the percieved crew scheduling issues at WestJet, or any company for that matter, is delusional.
Do not confuse cost inefficiency with crew inefficiency.
If your system is that the last day of a multi-day trip is a 1 hour flight at 1 hour pay then the company will score that as 100% cost effective (as is an 8 hour flying day for 8 hours pay). But a 1 hour work/pay day is less Crew efficient than an 8 hour work/pay day.
As for ALPA being a panacea for what ails any pilot group I agree - ALPA will not solve your problems. ALPA provides resources. It is up to pilots to pick their representatives, committees, and set their own bargaining objectives. And since you cannot have everything, your group will have to set priorities.
It is obvious you are a divided group. Last time, WJ pilots supporting ALPA narrowly lost. Perhaps this time it will be a narrow victory. Either way, being a divided group will not be helpful to making change happen.
Good luck.
Your complete lack of understanding of network planning is apparent. There is no magic button to push that will maximize every single pairing. I was a crew scheduling rep for the union twice in my career. One of those stints in particular was extremely enlightening. I went to lots of crew scheduling and network planning meetings. It is unbelievably complex. When you add here, you take away there. You are 100% wrong suggesting that the companies will sacrifice a pilots schedule for cost efficiency. There was always a concerted effort to make the schedules as efficient for crews as possible but here's a newsflash for you; ultimately the schedule is optimized for the paying customer, not the pilots. Add to that pilots all have a different idea of the optimum schedule and it's a no-win situation. You couldn't pay me enough to be a scheduler or network planner.
On the up side if you need one, things are going to change. The pilot shortage we have been hearing about for 20 years is real at last. Finally pilots will be on the right side of the supply/demand equation. That fact alone will do more for pilots than all the strong arm tactics of any union. The sad thing is, if the WestJet pilots join ALPA, they will give thousands of their hard earned dollars to the union which will take credit for any advances they make. All of which will likely happen anyway.
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