No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[JoeyBarton]

1) I wasn't very pleased to see Ggn and Skv folks going DOH with their Jazz counterparts. In my mind Alpa Jazz should have done more to protect their membership. This is the big factor for not trying harder to join alpa: the tendency to go DOH for every merger. I can assure you we are hundreds not wanting to join alpa for that reason

2) The bottom 600 as mentionned earlier, well the bulk of it suffered from that B scale at Jazz, feeling the pre-2015 guys at Jazz threw them under the bus by voting for that lousy pay. Again, not much love for alpa.

3) As Rudder said, no LOUs at Jazz have been ratified but rather imposed. I for a fact know 3 bottom 200 guys at Jazz who have hated to see the Skv arrangement not being subject to a vote. Same with the Westjet deal. At least we get to vote on a few things at our homemade shop.

4) This might not have anything to do with acpa, but we had only 14-16% of the list laidoff, which is exceptionnal. The alpa shops have significantly laid off more except the niche market occupied by the 5T-7F consortium north of 60.

So I understand the push at times for Alpa every time we are upset with the way things are going here, but I am not convinced it is any better on the other side of the fence. Everybody I know in the say, bottom 1000 at ac, are against alpa. You will find more push for alpa from the PML 1 list, in the 24-2800# seniority band. Why? They got an awesome deal coming here. That's pretty much it.

[Fanblade]

1) I wasn't very pleased to see Ggn and Skv folks going DOH with their Jazz counterparts. In my mind Alpa Jazz should have done more to protect their membership. This is the big factor for not trying harder to join alpa: the tendency to go DOH for every merger. I can assure you we are hundreds not wanting to join alpa for that reason

Well then there are hundreds making decisions on false information. Jazz may have chosen DOH.

ALPA policy is not DOH. ALPA policy is to attempt to maintain pre merger status as best as possible.

Joey if you could only see the cumulative damage of the last 25 years. Not one action like a 10% cargo hit. Rather all of it piled on top of each other.

[rudder]

Joey if you could only see the cumulative damage of the last 25 years. Not one action like a 10% cargo hit. Rather all of it piled on top of each other.

Benchmark.

Compare the AC pre and post bankruptcy contracts. Do the same with the US carriers.

Compare the AC pre and post COVID WAWCON. Do the same with the US carriers.

Even if you use an index measurement rather than absolute, the difference is staggering.

AC enjoys a massive pilot labour cost advantage over all of its international competition. Add in exchange rate impact and it almost isn’t fair.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

1) I wasn't very pleased to see Ggn and Skv folks going DOH with their Jazz counterparts. In my mind Alpa Jazz should have done more to protect their membership. This is the big factor for not trying harder to join alpa: the tendency to go DOH for every merger. I can assure you we are hundreds not wanting to join alpa for that reason

2) The bottom 600 as mentionned earlier, well the bulk of it suffered from that B scale at Jazz, feeling the pre-2015 guys at Jazz threw them under the bus by voting for that lousy pay. Again, not much love for alpa.

3) As Rudder said, no LOUs at Jazz have been ratified but rather imposed. I for a fact know 3 bottom 200 guys at Jazz who have hated to see the Skv arrangement not being subject to a vote. Same with the Westjet deal. At least we get to vote on a few things at our homemade shop.

4) This might not have anything to do with acpa, but we had only 14-16% of the list laidoff, which is exceptionnal. The alpa shops have significantly laid off more except the niche market occupied by the 5T-7F consortium north of 60.

So I understand the push at times for Alpa every time we are upset with the way things are going here, but I am not convinced it is any better on the other side of the fence. Everybody I know in the say, bottom 1000 at ac, are against alpa. You will find more push for alpa from the PML 1 list, in the 24-2800# seniority band. Why? They got an awesome deal coming here. That's pretty much it.

And imagine that you fly the Air Canada tail and your aircraft and flying are forcibly removed, transferred to another company, and then they tell you, "you can continue to fly these aircraft, but we're putting you and your ten years of service behind the guy we hired last week."

Having a DOH based seniority is the fair way to do it, even if you now have a few more people ahead of you. Remember, you also have a lot more people below you.

[rudder]

1) I wasn't very pleased to see Ggn and Skv folks going DOH with their Jazz counterparts. In my mind Alpa Jazz should have done more to protect their membership. This is the big factor for not trying harder to join alpa: the tendency to go DOH for every merger. I can assure you we are hundreds not wanting to join alpa for that reason

Last actual ‘merger’ involving any of the Express carriers was 2001 in conjunction with the AC/CDN merger.

The GGN and SKV transactions were simply the addition of Express pilots to the Jazz list with full credit for service, including seniority. The predecessor Express carriers have a history of this type of pilot movement that began in the early 1990’s.

Whether this was fair or not is subjective. However, JAZZ ALPA has been consistent regardless of whether the transaction happened during boom times (GGN) or during a severe downturn (SKV).

As for ALPA Merger Policy - DOH is not referenced in the ‘factors’ for merging lists. However, this does not preclude parties from agreeing during the negotiations phase to a DOH solution. Having said that, no arbitrated result under the current merger policy has been DOH. Ratio with fences seems the most common outcome.

[acpaleaks]

Comparing a few regional airlines merging pilot lists with fear of it happening at AC (regional pilots getting DOH into a ML list) if we joined ALPA is rediculous.

[altiplano]

Delta and United and Alaska don't seem worried and 2 of the 3 have wholly owned ALPA represented regional subsidiaries (Endeavour, Horizon).

That's just fear the anti-ALPA crowd likes to toss around.

[acpaleaks]

1) I wasn't very pleased to see Ggn and Skv folks going DOH with their Jazz counterparts. In my mind Alpa Jazz should have done more to protect their membership. This is the big factor for not trying harder to join alpa: the tendency to go DOH for every merger. I can assure you we are hundreds not wanting to join alpa for that reason

2) The bottom 600 as mentionned earlier, well the bulk of it suffered from that B scale at Jazz, feeling the pre-2015 guys at Jazz threw them under the bus by voting for that lousy pay. Again, not much love for alpa.

3) As Rudder said, no LOUs at Jazz have been ratified but rather imposed. I for a fact know 3 bottom 200 guys at Jazz who have hated to see the Skv arrangement not being subject to a vote. Same with the Westjet deal. At least we get to vote on a few things at our homemade shop.

4) This might not have anything to do with acpa, but we had only 14-16% of the list laidoff, which is exceptionnal. The alpa shops have significantly laid off more except the niche market occupied by the 5T-7F consortium north of 60.

So I understand the push at times for Alpa every time we are upset with the way things are going here, but I am not convinced it is any better on the other side of the fence. Everybody I know in the say, bottom 1000 at ac, are against alpa. You will find more push for alpa from the PML 1 list, in the 24-2800# seniority band. Why? They got an awesome deal coming here. That's pretty much it.

This entire post proves you don't know what you're talking about. You realize the ggn merger was an overwhelming yes vote, right? And one of the higher turn outs in recent years.

What happens at the regional level has zero bearing on what may or may not happen at AC if we went ALPA.

[acpaleaks]

Delta and United and Alaska don't seem worried and 2 of the 3 have wholly owned ALPA represented regional subsidiaries (Endeavour, Horizon).

That's just fear the anti-ALPA crowd likes to toss around.

[alkaseltzer]

1) I wasn't very pleased to see Ggn and Skv folks going DOH with their Jazz counterparts. In my mind Alpa Jazz should have done more to protect their membership. This is the big factor for not trying harder to join alpa: the tendency to go DOH for every merger. I can assure you we are hundreds not wanting to join alpa for that reason

2) The bottom 600 as mentionned earlier, well the bulk of it suffered from that B scale at Jazz, feeling the pre-2015 guys at Jazz threw them under the bus by voting for that lousy pay. Again, not much love for alpa.

3) As Rudder said, no LOUs at Jazz have been ratified but rather imposed. I for a fact know 3 bottom 200 guys at Jazz who have hated to see the Skv arrangement not being subject to a vote. Same with the Westjet deal. At least we get to vote on a few things at our homemade shop.

4) This might not have anything to do with acpa, but we had only 14-16% of the list laidoff, which is exceptionnal. The alpa shops have significantly laid off more except the niche market occupied by the 5T-7F consortium north of 60.

So I understand the push at times for Alpa every time we are upset with the way things are going here, but I am not convinced it is any better on the other side of the fence. Everybody I know in the say, bottom 1000 at ac, are against alpa. You will find more push for alpa from the PML 1 list, in the 24-2800# seniority band. Why? They got an awesome deal coming here. That's pretty much it.

+1

[altiplano]

1) I wasn't very pleased to see Ggn and Skv folks going DOH with their Jazz counterparts. In my mind Alpa Jazz should have done more to protect their membership. This is the big factor for not trying harder to join alpa: the tendency to go DOH for every merger. I can assure you we are hundreds not wanting to join alpa for that reason

2) The bottom 600 as mentionned earlier, well the bulk of it suffered from that B scale at Jazz, feeling the pre-2015 guys at Jazz threw them under the bus by voting for that lousy pay. Again, not much love for alpa.

3) As Rudder said, no LOUs at Jazz have been ratified but rather imposed. I for a fact know 3 bottom 200 guys at Jazz who have hated to see the Skv arrangement not being subject to a vote. Same with the Westjet deal. At least we get to vote on a few things at our homemade shop.

4) This might not have anything to do with acpa, but we had only 14-16% of the list laidoff, which is exceptionnal. The alpa shops have significantly laid off more except the niche market occupied by the 5T-7F consortium north of 60.

So I understand the push at times for Alpa every time we are upset with the way things are going here, but I am not convinced it is any better on the other side of the fence. Everybody I know in the say, bottom 1000 at ac, are against alpa. You will find more push for alpa from the PML 1 list, in the 24-2800# seniority band. Why? They got an awesome deal coming here. That's pretty much it.

+1

1) DOH fears are irrational. That was JAZZ's choice and it was voted.

2) I think you're making suppositions.

3) And this is the big one... Jazz again... Is that really what you want to compare yourself to?

United ALPA Pilots voted their Covid recovery deal;

https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ne ... s-canceled

Delta ALPA Pilots voted their Covid recovery deal;

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rough-2021

4) And this is another big one.... and you said it "this might not have anything to do with acpa." We are a multi-fleet network legacy airline. The only on in this country. Westjet? 2 types. Jazz? 2 types. Transat? Charter airline. And again, are those your industry comparators? At least their furloughs all collected CEWS.

The fact is that AC laid off exactly what it wanted to lay off, they always do what they are going to do, fleet, routes, cargo, bases, staffing... and the sooner every AC pilot figures that out the better. I will also point out that we were understaffed by nearly 1000 going into 2020, Westjet are on full blocks and recalling, Jazz are on full blocks and fully recalled, upgrading in fact... at this rate they will be hiring while our guys are on the street... and that's a real good one .. why are Jazz guys doing 90 hours and upgrading with full recalls? Because ACPA made a deal to give up our Scope, fin guarantees, block hour guarantees, and CPA limits until 2023 - but hey, at least we voted on that, right? Ask most guys and they don't even know what they voted on... they only read the webinar slides on the sell job, and bought the fear.

We have been bleeding here for 20 years under ACPA.

Wake the fuk up.

I'll also add... ACPA's own expert review said that we are broken and recommended two fixes, one of which was merge with another Union. We didn't do that. Did we follow the other recommendation? NO! We gutted sober second thought (President veto) and consolidated power to the MEC and MEC Chair. We closed off member direction, made recall and member driven initiatives more difficult, we closed the member directory so members couldn't contact each other easily, we allowed long standing experts and volunteers that actually advocated for the membership to be cut. We censure and discipline members that speak out, including the entire slate of YYZ councillors. MM will even write you an insult laced love letter and tell you what he thinks of you if you're vocal disagreeing with the direction of the association.

Like really? Are you okay with that?

If you're anti-ALPA then let's see if the APA or SWAPA would take us... because ACPA has got to go...

[Fanblade]

Joey if you could only see the cumulative damage of the last 25 years. Not one action like a 10% cargo hit. Rather all of it piled on top of each other.

Benchmark.

Compare the AC pre and post bankruptcy contracts. Do the same with the US carriers.

Compare the AC pre and post COVID WAWCON. Do the same with the US carriers.

Even if you use an index measurement rather than absolute, the difference is staggering.

AC enjoys a massive pilot labour cost advantage over all of its international competition. Add in exchange rate impact and it almost isn’t fair.

I agree.

With that said even if you showed some people the staggering losses over time, they would still find a reason to defend ACPA. Or they would go straight to trying to find ways to discredit the benchmarking.

For them, ACPA is more important than the profession or those ACPA is supposed to represent.

And it works. Add just a little bit of a question mark into the benchmark and those who are not engaged have no idea what to think.

ACPA has most definitely slipped into a defensive posture against its own members in recent months. The firing of so many volunteers is proof.

An attempt to bring a social media policy targeted at the membership another

[YHZFog]

As long as we have co-workers like this guy accessing places of power, the decisions made by ACPA will continue to benefit just a few with power and not the group. Voluntary Overtime while pilots in furlough...
Gandhi said “A civilization is measured by how it treats its weakest members”. I guess we can transpose "civilization" to any kind of group. I think that in our case, the weakest members right now are the furloughed pilots and, yes, I consider them still members.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

Seeing how ignorant and clueless this wanker is I'm not surprised his family can't stand him.

[RRJetPilot]

What a LOSER. Why the hell is the name blanked out. Every pilot in the country should know his name and shame him. Small industry.

[acpaleaks]

I just looked him up he's on the Member Services committee.

[YHZFog]

What a LOSER. Why the hell is the name blanked out. Every pilot in the country should know his name and shame him. Small industry.

Had to blank it as per forum rules. The post will be removed if personal information is published. Feel free to PM me.

[a220hereicome]

I literally get sick to the stomach with shame when I see a Delta aircraft or pilot. I remove my hat in embarrassment when they are around.

By far the most pathetic post I've ever read on this forum.

[acpaleaks]

I literally get sick to the stomach with shame when I see a Delta aircraft or pilot. I remove my hat in embarrassment when they are around.

By far the most pathetic post I've ever read on this forum.

I understand what he's saying though. I had more pride walking around in the USA in my Jazz uniform and ALPA lanyard. Actually feeling like you're part of a brotherhood, getting the nod from the Delta and United boys. These days though I don't feel the same, knowing how it's US that are setting low wage precedent in North America. I'm sure though they would happily welcome us with open arms if we said "hey guys we need help, let us in the ALPA club and help us raise our expectations and wages and send us some big guns to help our negotiations and costing etc."... But as long as AC pilots think they can go it alone and can do it better (we can't) we'll always be the redheaded step child of North American legacy carriers.

[altiplano]

I literally get sick to the stomach with shame when I see a Delta aircraft or pilot. I remove my hat in embarrassment when they are around.

By far the most pathetic post I've ever read on this forum.

That's funny, because pretty much every time you post that's what I think.

I'm sure though they would happily welcome us with open arms if we said "hey guys we need help, let us in the ALPA club and help us raise our expectations and wages and send us some big guns to help our negotiations and costing etc."...

I wonder about that when ALPA-C won't reopen dialogue with ACPA on the merger, I get it nobody wants to deal with MM, he's such a tool... but it seems like many like to point at AC pilots for lowering the bar in this country... so help us raise it! Or do the politics of maintaining control and excluding AC from the club takes precedent over collective effort, pattern bargaining, and lifting us all.

[a220hereicome]

altiplano.

Almost 5000 posts on this forum, almost daily. You need a hobby. Hint, the internet isn't a hobby.

Better yet, why not run for elected office in ACPA, maybe volunteer some of your time on a committee. You seem to have all the answers.

But that would mean leaving the basement and stepping away from the keyboard.

[altiplano]

Yawn... my 2 minutes browsing a news feed here and there that includes this among other things is all you've got...

I've got lots of hobbies, a small business, a full time job, and plenty of people in my life, thanks for your concern though.

The other thing, is these little smart phones mean I don't have to be at my computer (at the keyboard in the basement as you say) to read or post... airport appreciation time, waiting to push back on a DH, in line for a coffee, killing time and drinking that coffee, waiting to pick up my kid after practice, just about anywhere it's really easy to follow and make a quick contribution to what's going on.

One thing that's important to me is following this industry and my career and pointing out the pressure it's under in this country and the degradation of our position at our employer in particular.

2 years on this forum for you (at least under this handle, and I'm sure it's not your first) and all you have done is write posts supporting that degradation of our position, supporting acceptance of the decline at ACPA contract after contract, MOA after MOA.

I would suggest in your posts that you stop shilling for management and inept ACPA leadership. The evidence is clear what's happened here in the last 20 years. Take a look around at the waste left behind from ACPA's incompetence. We get paid in inflation adjusted dollars to the tune of 40% less than we did 20 years ago. How do you account for that? On top of that we have lost big time on working conditions and benefits. How do you account for that?

Give your head a shake and get with the reality of the steep slope we're falling down.

[airway]

I would suggest in your posts that you stop shilling for management and inept ACPA leadership. The evidence is clear what's happened here in the last 20 years. Take a look around at the waste left behind from ACPA's incompetence. We get paid in inflation adjusted dollars to the tune of 40% less than we did 20 years ago. How do you account for that? On top of that we have lost big time on working conditions and benefits. How do you account for that?

Give your head a shake and get with the reality of the steep slope we're falling down.

According to the Bank of Canada, inflation in the last 20 years has been about 40%. Is your pay the same now compared to 2001?

[altiplano]

I would suggest in your posts that you stop shilling for management and inept ACPA leadership. The evidence is clear what's happened here in the last 20 years. Take a look around at the waste left behind from ACPA's incompetence. We get paid in inflation adjusted dollars to the tune of 40% less than we did 20 years ago. How do you account for that? On top of that we have lost big time on working conditions and benefits. How do you account for that?

Give your head a shake and get with the reality of the steep slope we're falling down.

According to the Bank of Canada, inflation in the last 20 years has been about 40%. Is your pay the same now compared to 2001?

Just about... even less in some cases, maybe most cases... FOs, RPs, Narrow bodies, 4-year flat...

I'll quote a part of someone's more eloquent analysis from reflecting on ACPA's 25 years on another forum to illustrate where we are:

Here's the highlights though:

In 1995 an A320 CA made $235.29 half day, half night(4). Inflation adjusted that works out to $368.18 in 2020 dollars. What is the Air Canada a320 pay rate for 2020? $224.27/hr. That is a 39% drop in purchasing power since 1995 and the inception of ACPA.

(my edit to add - in 2001 A320 CA paid $259.30, so even worse! and LOU74 Rouge 319 is even less!)

In 1995 a 767CA made $249.46/hr(4). Inflation adjusted to 2020 that is $390.35/hr. What is the current Air Canada 767CA rate for 2020? $257.89/hour. Cargo $232.10/hour. That is respectively a 34% and 41% drop in purchasing power since 1995 and the inception of ACPA.

(my edit to add - in 2001 767CA paid $285.03 so even worse! and LOU74 Rouge 319 is even less!)

We all missed it. Or at least I did. It was November 9, 1995 that the Air Canada pilots left CALPA to go it alone. Wow time flies. 25 years.

I suddenly feel old. It seems like yesterday.

Well it’s customary to look back and self reflect on anniversaries. How has our pilot group fared over the last quarter century with ACPA at the helm? There was a massive hiring spree in the 90’s. A merger in 2000. 911 hammered the industry in 2001. If that wasn’t enough SARS hit in 2003. Then a Pension crisis. Air Canada, American, Delta, Northwest, Continental, US Airways and United all went into bankruptcy protection. Massive pay cuts everywhere. ACPA pilots took 20% cuts. Some cuts in the US were even higher. Pensions lost.

Then in about 2005 things began to recover. Consolidation South of the border and a renewed focus on CASM returned Airlines to profitability. Here at Air Canada we were slow on the refleeting process that focused on CASM but it did begin to get underway around 2012. Air Canada too began its most profitable period ever.

Now on the 25 year anniversary of ACPA’s inception we find ourselves in the middle of a Pandemic.

It’s a useful exercise to compare how we did under ACPA representation through all that mayhem, in comparison to others.

The comparator. There is no standard for this as it seems to ebb and flow depending on the day within our organization. I would argue that in this case it doesn’t matter because we are simply going to use a before and after snapshot. There will be no direct wage comparison.

I chose DELTA. We could easily use United or American but I found more numbers for Delta.

According to MIT the average Delta pilot made $129,315 in 1995(1). By 2016 the number had reached $180,000 according to Delta airlines(2). Subsequent to this the Delta pilots received a 30% pay increase bringing the average pilot salary to $234,000(3). An 80% increase in pay from 1995 to 2020. Sounds good but we need to adjust the 1995 number for inflation to get the real picture. According to a US inflation calculator $129,315 in 1995 is worth $219,607.25 today. Clearly the Delta pilots did pretty good throughout the mayhem of the last 25 years. They didn’t actually make a lot of monetary gains above inflation but still managed to eek out a gain. They get a B+.

United for example had a average salary of $135,728 in 1995(1). As a result they didn’t make any monetary gains however kept up with inflation. They get a B.

The most gains above inflation go to American, but only because their 1995 average salary was lower at $116,470(1). So although percentage wise they made the most gains it’s tough to give them a better grade. I’ll give them a B as well.

Either way all three comparators met, or beat, inflation during the last 25 years.

For Air Canada I don’t have average yearly salaries to compare so I will switch to hourly wages from historic pay scales.


In 1995 an A320 CA made $235.29 half day, half night(4). Inflation adjusted that works out to $368.18 in 2020 dollars. What is the Air Canada a320 pay rate for 2020? $224.27/hr. That is a 39% drop in purchasing power since 1995 and the inception of ACPA.

In 1995 a 767CA made $249.46/hr(4). Inflation adjusted to 2020 that is $390.35/hr. What is the current Air Canada 767CA rate for 2020? $257.89/hour. Cargo $232.10/hour. That is respectively a 34% and 41% drop in purchasing power since 1995 and the inception of ACPA.

What grade would you give ACPA over the last 25 years?

We need change. Real change.

References

(1)MIT Pilot Salary.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2010 ... SONNEL.htm

(2) CNN article from 2016.

https://money.cnn.com/2016/03/29/news/c ... index.html

Delta pilots have an average base pay of $185,000, according to the airline. That's less than the average of $190,000 at Southwest (LUV), $205,000 at American and $209,000 at United.

(3)Delta 30% raise

https://onemileatatime.com/delta-pilot-pay-raise/

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... _air_lines

(4)

55A169B9-50FF-4ADE-B1F2-7128E5904829.jpeg (525.89 KiB) Viewed 2287 times

[/i]

[altiplano]

And then how does that compare to the rest of the world? Executives? Professionals? Politicians? Military? Minimum wage?

I saw this recently...

ACPA wage to inflation comparison.png (192.93 KiB) Viewed 2301 times

Like if the above hard numbers aren't enough to say WTF is ACPA doing here? Maybe you can visualize it now.

Maybe some guys just don't know where we were, how far we have fallen...

320 CA 2001 $259
320 CA 2021 $228

767 CA 2001 $285
767 CA 2021 $262

777 CA 2001 $345
778 CA 2021 $311

Looking at that now... it's even worse than I thought. Tack on 40% inflation! Those are real numbers, not adjusted.

WAKE THE F- UP!

On top of that working conditions gutted, pension gutted, lost indexing, higher contributions, worse scheduling rules, worse equipment bidding rules, on and on the concessions go.

And the "silent majority" apparently supports this? What's your problems? Why is ACPA managing expectations and not educating the membership?