DEC Westjet Swoop

[CaptainHaddock]

Do you know for sure that the SunWing pilots will be merged with all WJ group company pilots, including Encore pilots? Or would they be merged with only the WJ mainline and Swoop pilots who are in one bargaining unit (Encore having its own bargaining unit)?

I think a weighted merging would be the least contentious for both groups, mostly because the airline is growing. But AlpaPolicy’s point is certainly a significant detail and probably the big fly in the ointment. WestJet/Encore have the DOH/PTA but merging the SunWing pilots into that would be pretty unpalatable to them, but parachuting the SunWing pilots above the Encore pilots will be unpalatable to them.

This is all belly button gazing currently, we’ll see how the regulatory approval goes and the next few months pan out.

[Mach1]

You're missing what I originally said. I said that I don't think SWG pilots want to have a merged seniority list at all, BUT if it came to that, a percentage/ ratio merged list is equitable.

A percentage/ratio.... Let's see, SW divided by WJ... carry the one.... Sunwing pilots are 20% of the size of WJ pilots so we only apply 20% of DOH to the merge? Okay, I can live with that percentage/ratio.

Just be careful what you wish for, it may be applied in a way you don't like (see example above). Why don't we wait for the dust to settle a bit so we can see clearly when we start making plans for world domination and how you will plan to take over the world.

[TFTMB heavy]

Anybody trying to have a reasonable conversation on this subject will be met with disillusioned expertise by hopeful experts. For proof, just go read up on the TS-AC posts.

Some of you also need to go read up on the concept of NO BUMP, NO FLUSH.

[Sharklasers]

Anybody trying to have a reasonable conversation on this subject will be met with disillusioned expertise by hopeful experts. For proof, just go read up on the TS-AC posts.

Some of you also need to go read up on the concept of NO BUMP, NO FLUSH.

Agreed, there were a bunch of hopeful Transat pilots hoping to knock AC pilots to the curb spewing the same pie in the sky percentage based lottery win for themselves.

I think their hopes are different now.

[ALPApolicy]

What is the company's intention? Does it want SunWing (SWG) pilots to go to mainline or Swoop? I am assuming that the SWG OC will be collapsed relatively quickly, within the order of 6 months or less. It should be easy to achieve, and unnecessary to maintain SWG pilots providing uplift for SWG Vacations as that will be provided by Swoop or WJ pilots.

If the intention is to send SWG to Swoop, do they do so under Swoop's WAWCONs? Is that possible? Or advisable? I am not going to spend much time on that topic right now until I can think more about it. Perhaps others can opine.

If the idea is to send SWG pilots to WJ then, for the most part, we are talking about where to place people in 737NG/MAX jobs which the most of us are already flying. SWG pilots, even the most senior ones, are not a threat in the near term, to WestJet pilots with their eyes on the left seat of the 787. I think a three year - five year fence on the left seat of the 787 (in favour of WJ pilots) would be reasonable on the final list.

For SWG pilots desiring right seat on the 787, is the same policy appropriate? I think that's a reasonable position. It is also more likely that a SWG pilot would be able to hold right seat on the 787 depending on the composition of the final Integrated Seniority List (ISL).

For WJ pilots already in the left seat, and not close to getting the left seat on the 787, there isn't much of a negative affect that the final ISL can have on them. Due diligence will still have to be done, of course, but we are all flying 737's.

What to do about WJ FO's and Swoop FO's hoping to upgrade? I think one approach would be to look at how long have the FO's been in their seat, and how long were they realistically looking at getting to the left seat. Whatever models are put forth, how does the list proposed affect pilots such as these?

In any case, there will be gives and takes in the final list. Some sections will be affected more than others, but there shouldn't be windfall gains to one side or the other. We should be hoping for a result that aims to achieve some sort of equity (as much as I hate that word in other usages).

John

[TFTMB heavy]

Anybody trying to have a reasonable conversation on this subject will be met with disillusioned expertise by hopeful experts. For proof, just go read up on the TS-AC posts.

Some of you also need to go read up on the concept of NO BUMP, NO FLUSH.

Agreed, there were a bunch of hopeful Transat pilots hoping to knock AC pilots to the curb spewing the same pie in the sky percentage based lottery win for themselves.

I think their hopes are different now.

Went both ways with some AC pilots requesting BOTL. Regardless, wasn't my point.

[Sharklasers]

Anybody trying to have a reasonable conversation on this subject will be met with disillusioned expertise by hopeful experts. For proof, just go read up on the TS-AC posts.

Some of you also need to go read up on the concept of NO BUMP, NO FLUSH.

Agreed, there were a bunch of hopeful Transat pilots hoping to knock AC pilots to the curb spewing the same pie in the sky percentage based lottery win for themselves.

I think their hopes are different now.

Went both ways with some AC pilots requesting BOTL. Regardless, wasn't my point.

Yeah that was never going to happen. I think when the dust settles the SW/WS merger will probably become an example of a smooth merger where everyone comes out relatively happy. Fenced DOH sounds pretty good for all but some SW FOs hoping for the quick upgrade.

[ALPApolicy]

Other factors in play are:

1) The expiry of the WJ contract at the end of this year.

2) It is no secret that WJ pilots are unhappy with current Swoop WAWCONs, which are significantly inferior to mainline.

3) Swoop can expand to 30 tails immediately according to the WJ CBA. Further expansion, under the current CBA is tied to more 787's on property.

4) The PTA exists as an LOU under the current contract and grandfathers existing Encore pilots in the event the PTA is abandoned in the future. It is assumed that it would be placed inside the next CBA , but it is not guaranteed that it survives. If the company wants it more than WJ/Swoop pilots to retain Encore pilots, what would they give WJ/Swoop pilots to maintain the PTA?

If an Integrated Seniority List (ISL) is composed of SWG with Swoop and WJ, but not Encore pilots, Encore pilots will parachute onto the ISL at a position other than BOTL, when they later flow to WJ or Swoop. Assuming that the ISL has sections where ratios of some sort are employed, where do these Encore pilots go? Does the merger process anticipate this and reserve positions on the list for the Encore pilots who flow?

It would be much simpler to integrate SWG pilots with the company wide WJ/Swoop/Encore seniority list, but is that a valid list to use in a merger such as this?

[JetA Burner]

What is PTA? I understand that the WS/WO list is not DOH, that being said I don't know how it was/is compiled. Just trying to figure out how encore play into the mix as well. I thought that the "one list" was exactly that. One seniority list.

[ALPApolicy]

What is PTA? I understand that the WS/WO list is not DOH, that being said I don't know how it was/is compiled. Just trying to figure out how encore play into the mix as well. I thought that the "one list" was exactly that. One seniority list.

The history of the PTA (Pilot Transfer Agreement) lies in the formation of Encore back in circa 2014. In that time, neither WJ nor Encore were unionized. The Encore working conditions were apparently considered unattractive by some pilots looking to apply to WJ/Encore and they held off applying. In order to sweeten the offer, WJ management and the WJPA came up with a scheme (the One List) where Encore pilots would carry their Encore DOH over to WJ for purposes of placement on the WJ (pre-union) seniority lists used for upgrades and base assignments. A cynic might say that instead of offering more pay, WJ management and the WJPA sacrificed the seniority of mainline pilots in order to attract Encore pilots. Prior to unionization, not many of us realized how close we were to certifying and the subsequent legal force of Collective Bargaining Agreements.

When ALPA certfied WJ and then Encore pilots, all previously existing procedures were frozen until negotiation of the first CBAs.

The first WJ CBA contained a seniority list that was DOH (at WestJet mainline) for all WJ Off The Street (OTS) pilots but the pilots already at WJ who had flowed from Encore were credited their DOH at Encore. This was in keeping with the One List in place since 2014ish. The CBA had no provision for pilots who flowed from Encore after the date of the CBA.

Sometime after that CBA was in place, ALPA and the Company approached the pilots with an LOU proposal that replicated the One List. Pilots who flowed to WJ from Encore would be credited with their DOH at Encore for purposes of placement on the seniority list, some 4 to 5 years before they flowed. Pilots who "flow" must quit their job at Encore and be hired at WestJet mainline.

As a result, we have a company wide seniority list which contains a DOH for all pilots at WJ/Swoop/Encore which is based on their first DOH at a WJ group company. We also have an ordered seniority list at WJ and Swoop. From those lists, one cannot tell who flowed from Encore and who was an OTS pilot as there is only one Date of Hire, the one on the combined company list.

The PTA, as mentioned previously is in place as an LOU. It may be placed in the next CBA. The wording of the CBA says it may be cancelled at the request of either party, but the existing Encore pilots are grandfathered, meaning they will carry their WJ DOH when they flow in five years. I am not sure how that works in light of the current situation.

[JetA Burner]

Post

I may be more confused after that post. Let me digest that one....

[ALPApolicy]

Post

I may be more confused after that post. Let me digest that one....

Simply put:

The WJ and Swoop pilots are in one bargaining unit. Encore pilots are in a separate bargaining unit. If you looked at a seniority list for just the WJ/Swoop bargaining unit, the pilots all have a DOH listed beside their names. For all pilots on that list that were hired before 2014 or so, the DOH is their DOH at WJ. For pilots on the list with a DOH of 2014 and later (up until now) the DOH may represent:

1) the date they were hired at WJ or Swoop as Off The Street (OTS) pilots, meaning they didn't flow from Encore, or
2) the date they were hired at Encore, which will be 3,4 or 5 years before they were hired at WJ or Swoop. The date they actually came to WJ/Swoop from Encore is not readily available to pilots. I assume the Merger Committees will exchange that information.

When a pilot position bid comes out, it is available to all pilots on the company wide seniority list (subject to Encore pilots being released to flow to mainline or Swoop).

[elite]

….we are talking about where to place people in 737NG/MAX jobs which the most of us are already flying. SWG pilots, even the most senior ones, are not a threat in the near term, to WestJet pilots with their eyes on the left seat of the 787. I think a three year - five year fence on the left seat of the 787 (in favour of WJ pilots) would be reasonable on the final list…

Keeping pilot groups separate is not efficient, rather all pilots will likely be merged and able to bid into new open positions based on their seniority and applicable temporary fences. Swoop fleet will almost certainly grow and so too will the WB, and likely mainline B737 too, especially with cargo coming into play, so barring any disasters, there will likely be growth.

C3 merger had 3 year fences and freezes, this might be similar. Also expect x number of next upgrades, on both types, come from WJ group given that it has more years. The best being DOH and worst BOTL, SWG will likely fall somewhere in between. A 1 to 5 ratio might play a part somewhere on the list. That seems to be the rough ratio of pilots at WJ compared to SWG. At C3 I believe it was 1 to 2 and it did play a part in certain parts of the list.

At any rate, as others have said, no bump, no flush will protect everyone so that neither group is disadvantaged. And as you said, those that joined SWG solely for EU deployment have time to find something else!! Although the deployment of 10 tails in the summer brought back 25 in the winter, so keeping those is overall better for Canadian pilots.