Flair Airlines - Planes seized

[flying4dollars]

If I was leasing a Ferrari for $100/mo, there is no way I'd be late on a payment EVER!!!!!!
They knew they had a hell of a deal with COVID lease rates, why they would do anything to jeopardize that, even if it is industry standard to look the other way for being a day or so late with payments.
They know what the lease rates are now, and their bottom line was based on those COVID lease rates, now they don't have them anymore, to replace those aircraft they won't be getting the same rates.
Someone should have lost their job over this massive blunder.

I don't think it matters what is being leased or at what cost. A lease payment shouldn't be missed and whoever was responsible should have to be accountable for that, I agree.

[slicktop]

I'm trying to understand how the Flair CEO is blaming everyone but ignoring their own incompetence in paying bills on time?

If you have a sweetheart COVID lease deal on some nice 737s, you should ensure they are paid on time or early. Every month. Regardless whether it's "not industry standard" to repo being a few days behind as he so woefully put in his sad little interview. Perhaps in a different timeline the leasing company would have worked with them to get caught up. But if they are in the legal right to terminate and reposses then that is their right.

And now to throw accusations at WestJet and AC? It's business. If I were a hedge fund leasing group with the ability to legally break the contract and pull in $300,000+ more per month on each aircraft I would do the same. Funds are there to make money for their investors, simple as that.

It's sad to see this happen, even as a pilot at AC I want to see Flair succeed because the more competition there is in this country for pilots the better it is for all of us. And anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Especially going into the next 1-2 years of bargaining at a number of the big carriers. A Flair collapse right now flooding the market with typed 737 pilots would be a detriment to WJ ALPA's negotiating as well as ACPA in the next year.

[ziggy]

https://apple.news/A0-YfePtcRECAav-MncNuzA

When your CEO is full of shit.

[ziggy]

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/flair-apolo ... -1.6312579

Nothing to see here. It’s the 2 majors that told us to default on payment. Another 777 bailout to add to the current debt. Don’t want to see pilots unemployed, but get out while you can. Your boss is full of shit and willing to take you down with him.

[fish4life]

That makes a lot more sense

[rookiepilot]

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/flair-apolo ... -1.6312579

Airborne Capital released a written statement regarding Jones' allegations on Tuesday.
“Airborne Capital strongly rejects the allegations that have been made by Flair Airlines in recent days in relation to four Airborne-managed aircraft," the statement says, adding the leases were terminated after Flair was regularly late on its leasing payments for a five-month period.
"Terminating an aircraft lease is always a last resort, and such a decision is never taken lightly. In this case, following numerous notices to Flair, it again failed to make payments when due and Airborne took steps to terminate the leasing of the aircraft."
Airborne said it has legal obligations to mitigate the losses on the planes, and has taken steps to meet those obligations.
The company said it would not be speaking further on the matter.

[Dias]

I'm not sure what the Flair CEO is doing by still talking about this. Now Airborne Capital is forced to make their own press release to defend themselves. You'd think that Flair would want this out of the news as soon as possible.

[cdnavater]

I'm not sure what the Flair CEO is doing by still talking about this. Now Airborne Capital is forced to make their own press release to defend themselves. You'd think that Flair would want this out of the news as soon as possible.

Jones has no choice to try and minimize it, it would be a snowball effect if not, however he may not have factored the leasing company defending their decision publicly but they have suffered some harm to their reputation from Jones.
Imagine when companies are shopping around for leases, would you be leery about leasing from them, if you thought they would repo them over a five day arrears payment, probably factor into how much you would pay

[rookiepilot]

I'm not sure what the Flair CEO is doing by still talking about this. Now Airborne Capital is forced to make their own press release to defend themselves. You'd think that Flair would want this out of the news as soon as possible.

Jones has no choice to try and minimize it, it would be a snowball effect if not, however he may not have factored the leasing company defending their decision publicly but they have suffered some harm to their reputation from Jones.
Imagine when companies are shopping around for leases, would you be leery about leasing from them, if you thought they would repo them over a five day arrears payment, probably factor into how much you would pay

He’d better be very careful he doesn’t get sued for slandering the reputation of another company. Sure the lawyers are watching.

Can’t smear another business without proof.

You’d be nuts to book flair right now IMO.

[slicktop]

I'm not sure what the Flair CEO is doing by still talking about this. Now Airborne Capital is forced to make their own press release to defend themselves. You'd think that Flair would want this out of the news as soon as possible.

Jones has no choice to try and minimize it, it would be a snowball effect if not, however he may not have factored the leasing company defending their decision publicly but they have suffered some harm to their reputation from Jones.
Imagine when companies are shopping around for leases, would you be leery about leasing from them, if you thought they would repo them over a five day arrears payment, probably factor into how much you would pay

He’d better be very careful he doesn’t get sued for slandering the reputation of another company. Sure the lawyers are watching.

Can’t smear another business without proof.

You’d be nuts to book flair right now IMO.

It's ok Tbaylx will come on shortly and reassure everyone that everything is fine.

[CpnCrunch]

More info here, and accusations of "skulduggery":

https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo ... ights.html

Sounds like an episode of airplane repo. I miss that show, even though it was a little corny and contrived.

[rookiepilot]

More info here, and accusations of "skulduggery":

https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo ... ights.html

Sounds like an episode of airplane repo. I miss that show, even though it was a little corny and contrived.

It was just very underhanded and sort of middle-of-the-night skulduggery.”

Jones was not confident that Flair will get the planes back. “If there’s one thing I’ve learned here, it is don’t get between a hedge fund and a dollar. They’re very mercenary in the way that they have approached this,” he said.

This guy is hilarious.



Awesome show, BTW.

[ads-b]

They missed payments for months. Lessor recouped most of their money. Obviously shopped the planes around to airlines that pay their bills. Grabbed their planes before tied up in a bankruptcy.

Time for a new spin.

[JasonE]

When I flew YQT to YYZ in January I chose not to use Flair because I couldn't risk being stuck there for a week! Flew home West Jet for double the price. Not sure the average consumer knows enough about airlines to make that choice.

[ThinMargins]

I have had a lot of conversations with lessors over the past few days.

The news, I am afraid, is very bad. They all think Jones is a pathological liar and want to pull their aircraft out. Jones lying about Airborne seizing aircraft just over a “five day delay” was the final straw because they all talk to each other and know that no one was getting paid since late last year. One lessor said their firm was shocked when Jones stood in front of a microphone and announced route expansions when he had been defaulting on lease payments for almost six months.

They see Flair’s financials every month and know that Flair does not make enough to pay its leases. That is why they were shopping Flair’s aircraft to other carriers.

They were surprised that 777 showed up and started making payments two weeks ago.

Why?

Because that is illegal. The CTA’s June decision last year ordered Flair to contract with lessors without 777’s guarantees or financial support to limit foreign control. These lessors know that the only way they can get paid requires a violation of the law. They do not want any part in that and are looking to find a way to terminate.

And then yesterday, Jones made a mistake. He publicly admitted what was only known to the lessors, that 777 was the party making payments. Now the CTA is starting an investigation. Read the Globe story very carefully. The CTA normally does not respond but has issued a public statement that it is “looking into information made public”. This is going to unravel quickly.

Mr. Jones has said Flair’s U.S. investor 777 Partners paid the amounts owing, adding it to the debt Flair owes.

Miami-based 777 Partners did not respond to e-mailed questions.

The Canadian Transportation Agency in 2022 began an investigation of Flair because 777 Partners appeared to be controlling the company, in violation of Canadian rules. The CTA would eventually declare Flair a Canadian company after the airline agreed to reduce its dependence on 777 Partners for financing and aircraft leases, and add more Canadians to the board of directors.

CTA spokesman Vincent Turgeon said the regulator monitors Flair for anything that might change its Canadian status. This includes its financing “and looking into the information made public over the last few days about Flair’s fleet,” Mr. Turgeon said in an e-mail.

[averageatbest]

When I flew QYT to YYZ in January I chose not to use Flair because I couldn't risk being stuck there for a week! Flew home West Jet for double the price. Not sure the average consumer knows enough about airlines to make that choice.

The fact that you think WJ doesn't cancel a shit tonne of flights as a big middle finger to the east, you're as incorrect as your misspelling of YQT.

[VmcAllTheWayDown]

When I flew QYT to YYZ in January I chose not to use Flair because I couldn't risk being stuck there for a week! Flew home West Jet for double the price. Not sure the average consumer knows enough about airlines to make that choice.

The fact that you think WJ doesn't cancel a shit tonne of flights as a big middle finger to the east, you're as incorrect as your misspelling of YQT.

Got to agree here. I’ve flown flair multiple times, never had an issue. Maybe I got off lucky, hopefully they’re around long enough to try my luck again.

On Sunday Flair had 3 out of 3 depart and arrivals at ykf. WJ cancelled their Ykf-yyc-ykf run. AC/Jazz has numerous flights in and out of yyz cancelled.

[VmcAllTheWayDown]

I have had a lot of conversations with lessors over the past few days.

The news, I am afraid, is very bad. They all think Jones is a pathological liar and want to pull their aircraft out. Jones lying about Airborne seizing aircraft just over a “five day delay” was the final straw because they all talk to each other and know that no one was getting paid since late last year. One lessor said their firm was shocked when Jones stood in front of a microphone and announced route expansions when he had been defaulting on lease payments for almost six months.

They see Flair’s financials every month and know that Flair does not make enough to pay its leases. That is why they were shopping Flair’s aircraft to other carriers.

They were surprised that 777 showed up and started making payments two weeks ago.

Why?

Because that is illegal. The CTA’s June decision last year ordered Flair to contract with lessors without 777’s guarantees or financial support to limit foreign control. These lessors know that the only way they can get paid requires a violation of the law. They do not want any part in that and are looking to find a way to terminate.

And then yesterday, Jones made a mistake. He publicly admitted what was only known to the lessors, that 777 was the party making payments. Now the CTA is starting an investigation. Read the Globe story very carefully. The CTA normally does not respond but has issued a public statement that it is “looking into information made public”. This is going to unravel quickly.

Mr. Jones has said Flair’s U.S. investor 777 Partners paid the amounts owing, adding it to the debt Flair owes.

Miami-based 777 Partners did not respond to e-mailed questions.

The Canadian Transportation Agency in 2022 began an investigation of Flair because 777 Partners appeared to be controlling the company, in violation of Canadian rules. The CTA would eventually declare Flair a Canadian company after the airline agreed to reduce its dependence on 777 Partners for financing and aircraft leases, and add more Canadians to the board of directors.

CTA spokesman Vincent Turgeon said the regulator monitors Flair for anything that might change its Canadian status. This includes its financing “and looking into the information made public over the last few days about Flair’s fleet,” Mr. Turgeon said in an e-mail.

So is it you that the media keeps quoting but can’t name?

[JasonE]

The fact that you think WJ doesn't cancel a shit tonne of flights as a big middle finger to the east, you're as incorrect as your misspelling of YQT.

Fingers got ahead of me... Everyone cancels flights. I looked at the flight schedule for the next few days, and Westjet had the next best option that worked for me the following day if things went wrong. Flair was 4-5 days later.

[Floop]

I have had a lot of conversations with lessors over the past few days.

Who are you? How do you have so many connections with lessors? Why should anyone believe you?

[averageatbest]

Fingers got ahead of me... Everyone cancels flights. I looked at the flight schedule for the next few days, and Westjet had the next best option that worked for me the following day if things went wrong. Flair was 4-5 days later.

Don't mind me... I'm just one of the losers who got shafted by the anti-growth growth strategy.

[Sharklasers]

I have had a lot of conversations with lessors over the past few days.

Who are you? How do you have so many connections with lessors? Why should anyone believe you?

I don’t know who he is but he was dead to rights correct a couple weeks ago about Flair defaulting on leases and even had the Fin numbers correct.

Certainly doesn’t mean that he is 100% correct and I think it’s super ballsy to post this stuff on avcanada but to dismiss him as a liar now seems foolish.


From another group tonight:

Interesting.

At Ottawa airport right now and its almost 2.5 hrs since landing. Ottawa Airport seems to be refusing to unload the plane as all of us passengers are being told that Flair is talking with the Airport or something along those lines. I'm now wondering if Flair owes money or something to the Airport.....

(ADDENDUM: Just cancelled my return flight with Flair. Booked a flight with Porter to get home juuuust in case)

Update:

Ok, it was about FOUR hours when the flight was FINALLY unloaded. No explanation was given to us, especially since flights from other airlines over that time were getting their bags. Flair was the only one (F8 326 from Calgary to Ottawa for the person who asked which flight this was). The only thing one guy who claimed to rep the airport said was that "Flair was talking to the airport" whatever that meant. But I can't help but feel that this is definitely a money issue if whatever company or the airport or whoever unloads planes seems to be doing every other plane EXCEPT this one FLair flight. SInce Ottawa only gets 1 flight every other day, and I saw at least 6 other flights of people get their bags, I can't figure out any other reason why this happened. Honestly, why did Flair even NEED to talk to the airport???

[rookiepilot]

My guess is Flair is done.

The budding banking crisis all but ensures weaker co’s will be impaired

[rookiepilot]

Cooked.

Hope you guys get paid.

[fish4life]

It’s crazy when a random forum poster has more credibility than the CEO but so far thin margins has been fairly accurate weeks before things happened.